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First off let me say I play Tau...and more or less in every game I throw down the same list, though my XV8 loadouts change...(since my army is magnetized I often make different lists with various XV8 loadouts)

What is the definition / range of acceptability of list tailoring. I want to say I haven't done it. I'm not so sure if that's true.
Help me become a better gamer lads.

Suppose you keep some common lists in your model case, a few of your favorites (thank you battle$cribe)
You have an arranged game with someone who is playing Imperial guard. Would it be considered list tailoring to pull out a Common GEQ list?
or a Common MEQ list for someone rocking Blood angels or Ultramarines?

the question is basically in normal warhammer etiquette is writing your list with the MEQ/GEQ/TEQ rating of the army in mind?
Paying no mind to your opponents play styles or what he may or may not bring.
is this situation considered list tailoring or army tailoring?

Thanks for reading.

Cheers

Edit: I have looked for info elsewhere but have not really found a definite answer

It really depends on the local playstyle. The group of guys I play with generally decide ahead of time who is playing and with what. We've always thought it silly that the troops go into battle not knowing who they are fighting. So, if I am fighting a GEQ list I know it, and so does he.

Now, if you know what is in his list and revise yours to be a hard counter then that rises to list tailoring.

I actually haven't had to deal with it for a long time though because most of us have enough variety that our lists (and even armies) change from game to game.

For me it only gets bad when you build your list to specifically beat one you know you will be playing. I am talking to the extent that you will lose to anything but that one list/set up not just building against MEQ or something like that.

List tailoring is the guy that never makes a list ahead of time, never plays the same list twice, and makes a list only after seeing who and what he's playing. Then his list always has either a)something the other army has no way to handle and/or b)full of things that the other army is really susceptible to.

Hans_Einberg wrote:
First off let me say I play Tau...and more or less in every game I throw down the same list, though my XV8 loadouts change...(since my army is magnetized I often make different lists with various XV8 loadouts)

What is the definition / range of acceptability of list tailoring. I want to say I haven't done it. I'm not so sure if that's true.
Help me become a better gamer lads.

Suppose you keep some common lists in your model case, a few of your favorites (thank you battle$cribe)
You have an arranged game with someone who is playing Imperial guard. Would it be considered list tailoring to pull out a Common GEQ list?
or a Common MEQ list for someone rocking Blood angels or Ultramarines?

the question is basically in normal warhammer etiquette is writing your list with the MEQ/GEQ/TEQ rating of the army in mind?
Paying no mind to your opponents play styles or what he may or may not bring.
is this situation considered list tailoring or army tailoring?

Thanks for reading.

Cheers

Edit: I have looked for info elsewhere but have not really found a definite answer

I write my list from an all-comer point of view. Most players in the area have multiple armies and I never ask up front what I will be facing. I draft the best list I can trying to cover as many scenarios as possible and roll with it.

I don't go...tomorrow I am facing footslogging MEQ. Let me pull out my Dark Reapers and all the AP3/AP2 stuff I can find. Throw in a Farseer or Eldrad to get perfect timing so my Reapers ignore all over and waste the guy.

If I have a match setup against a WAAC player I will maintain the same philosophy BUT I will pull out all the stops and apply the most unconventional combos to screw up his battle plan.

I find list tailoring is split into two sides. Army tailoring and Meta tailoring.

Army Tailoring is when you know what you are facing exactly and play according to that. Say you know someone is playing an all scout army so you tailor your list away from AP 2/3. I find this is the one that is cheat-y, unless you are both doing it.

Meta Tailoring is just that, Tailoring to your meta. You play in a MEQ heavy meta you bring stuff to handle it. This is fine in my eyes, who is gonna bring a Hydra in a non-flyer meta?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I find list tailoring is split into two sides. Army tailoring and Meta tailoring.

Army Tailoring is when you know what you are facing exactly and play according to that. Say you know someone is playing an all scout army so you tailor your list away from AP 2/3. I find this is the one that is cheat-y, unless you are both doing it.

Meta Tailoring is just that, Tailoring to your meta. You play in a MEQ heavy meta you bring stuff to handle it. This is fine in my eyes, who is gonna bring a Hydra in a non-flyer meta?

This seems reasonable.

For example, I might be playing Dystopian Wars this weekend. I know my friend has two fleets, and he mentioned that he wanted to focus on a certain aspect of one. So I'm throwing together a list this afternoon. Didn't pay attention to his preference at all, just tried to make a fun list that uses what I've got painted.

If I built a list to face his Prussians focusing on carriers because I know that's all he plays, that's not a huge deal. If I then get annoyed because he's decided to play a Blazing Sun Squid-Heavy force, I'm list tailoring. If I just said 'cool, let's do this" everything is good. No list tailoring.

On the other hand, if he went with the squids after seeing my list, that's would be list tailoring on his part.

Again, it really just depends...

If it is a "grudge" match -- "my marines could stomp your eldar into the dirt, come at me bro!!" Then "Tailoring" is perfectly acceptable as long as both players know it is a game for the right to talk smack only.

If it is a "pick up" game at the FLGS, then Tailoring is unacceptable. It is generally considered to be bad form to examine your opponents army and then build the "Trump" army to beat it.

If it is a "Campaign" game, then those have thier own rules on army composition but in my experience, the generals usually know the mission before the game and the general opponent -- ork -- marines -- eldar.... So the general is kind of expected to "Tailor" to the army type.

So it just depends on your style of game play..but the fact that you have the conscience to ask tells me that you are on the right track!!

 Zygrot24 wrote:
List tailoring is the guy that never makes a list ahead of time, never plays the same list twice, and makes a list only after seeing who and what he's playing. Then his list always has either a)something the other army has no way to handle and/or b)full of things that the other army is really susceptible to.

I agree with this, but it's not comprehensive enough. If you're playing against a player with only a MEQ army, and you field all plasmas and AP2 weapons, that's list-tailoring. If you're playing against a player with only a GEQ army and have a butt-ton of flamers, that's list tailoring too. Simply put, even if you have variations of a list where you swap plasmas for flamers or vice versa, and you know that the poor foe you're up against only has one army and you bring a list that is 100% more effective, that's list tailoring.

The best way to be a good sport in PUGs is just to have a TAC list that you would field for a tournament and just play it over and over. Besides, it gives you practice of running that list against different lists.

Wouldn't figuring out what list tailoring is be really easy? I mean, if the conversation goes like this:

"Hey what are you playing?"
"I've got my Tyranids here today."
"Ok. Just gimme a sec I've just got to make some changes to my list."

... then guess what? That's list tailoring.

 Balance wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I find list tailoring is split into two sides. Army tailoring and Meta tailoring.

Army Tailoring is when you know what you are facing exactly and play according to that. Say you know someone is playing an all scout army so you tailor your list away from AP 2/3. I find this is the one that is cheat-y, unless you are both doing it.

Meta Tailoring is just that, Tailoring to your meta. You play in a MEQ heavy meta you bring stuff to handle it. This is fine in my eyes, who is gonna bring a Hydra in a non-flyer meta?

This seems reasonable.

For example, I might be playing Dystopian Wars this weekend. I know my friend has two fleets, and he mentioned that he wanted to focus on a certain aspect of one. So I'm throwing together a list this afternoon. Didn't pay attention to his preference at all, just tried to make a fun list that uses what I've got painted.

If I built a list to face his Prussians focusing on carriers because I know that's all he plays, that's not a huge deal. If I then get annoyed because he's decided to play a Blazing Sun Squid-Heavy force, I'm list tailoring. If I just said 'cool, let's do this" everything is good. No list tailoring.

On the other hand, if he went with the squids after seeing my list, that's would be list tailoring on his part.

Agreed this is probably the most reasonable definition people could agree on, though I would add one caveat, list tailoring can be fun, if both players ahead of time try and counter each others models as much as possible, I've done that myself a couple of times with some friends, boy did we have a blast.

As an IG player I build every list to fight SM with some hordes type stuff thrown in. Like hydras that have a dual purpose, and medusa. I play about the same list every game we play with some variants if I am trying out something different then the “norm”. It rarely changes and I still have a good win loss ratio.

Hans_Einberg wrote:
Suppose you keep some common lists in your model case, a few of your favorites (thank you battle$cribe)
You have an arranged game with someone who is playing Imperial guard. Would it be considered list tailoring to pull out a Common GEQ list?
or a Common MEQ list for someone rocking Blood angels or Ultramarines?

You shouldn't know which codex your opponent is using before selecting your list. The fact that you gave vs GEQ, vs MEQ, etc. lists is list tailoring.

Does your opponent get to find out what army you've got before he selects his army list?


All lists should be all-comers lists unless you and your opponent both agree which codexes you're going to use before writing lists.

I always try to take an all comers list. Its just good list building.

I think that if you build a list with the advanced knowledge of who your opponent is, and your selections utilize that information in any way, you are list tailoring. (That's kind of the definition of it.)

The subtle difference comes in when you have a common theme in your community. If everyone plays one army, then it is smart to keep that in mind when building a list.

I will often bring 2 or more armies with me to my FLGS and 2-3 lists per army. I will then place the lists in a random order and roll a D6. There is my army I am playing with! I also don't look at what I have until it's time for me to deploy. I started this after TFG was doing some major list tailoring. Choosing his army and modifying it after he saw what his oppenent was playing. He refused to play me when I started letting the dice choose my army and list. It is has become fun for me as I will often make one random crazy list and add it in just to see what happens. Rolled an FW Armored Battlegroup vs my opponents Necrons last time. Was closer than either of us thought it would have been. Made for a memorible fun game (I lost 2-3).

 Salted Diamond wrote:
I will often bring 2 or more armies with me to my FLGS and 2-3 lists per army. I will then place the lists in a random order and roll a D6. There is my army I am playing with! I also don't look at what I have until it's time for me to deploy. I started this after TFG was doing some major list tailoring. Choosing his army and modifying it after he saw what his oppenent was playing. He refused to play me when I started letting the dice choose my army and list. It is has become fun for me as I will often make one random crazy list and add it in just to see what happens. Rolled an FW Armored Battlegroup vs my opponents Necrons last time. Was closer than either of us thought it would have been. Made for a memorible fun game (I lost 2-3).

Sounds really cool!