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Hey dakka,

I read a whole bunch of things online about what has changed in 6th edition, and I've come to the conclusion that some small things have changed, but nothing really major, with the exception of fliers and challenges. And with that said, I have tried to make a list that can combat most things it comes across. I have had a bit of trouble with deciding my HQ choice, and I believe that Kor'ssaro Khan best suits the overall strategy of the army, but if there is a better choice, or a more suited one, please give me your thoughts.
Here it is:
Kor'ssaro Khan on foot - 165 points
2 tactical squads in rhinos with powerswords, and standard ml/flamer combo.
8 bikes with powersword - 230 points
9 man assault squad with flamer and powerfist - 202 points
10 dakka terminators with 2 cyclone missile launchers and a chainfist - 465 points

My aim here is to appear from reserve in the first 2 turns, use the terminators with Khan as a mobile firebase, and tankbusters with the chainfist (and all of the powerfists of course) as an incredible assault unit. This is achieved with overwatch with 2 cmls and stormbolters, hit and run at the Khans initiative, and decimating everything. The bikes can start on the field, turbo boosting in turn 2 to get close to the terminators, and, depending on where they are needed, using the assault squad either in reserve with the termies, or behind the 2 tactical squads approaching from the opposite flank. This way, the terminators and bikes can take out heavy support and deliver surgical strikes on the one side, and the tactical squads and assault squad making an advancing wave on the other side. The idea is for the terminators to be a distraction and a huge threat, while the lesser units pick away at the enemy and be the real danger, until the opposition drops dead.

The cmls and missile launchers should give hordes one hell of a time trying to get across the board. The power weapons in every squad should get rid of most mechanized armies, and the squad sergeants should win most challenges.
About 50 marines, with twin linked shots and massed fire, toughness 5 and multiple saves should make this army solid, but I don't have the rulebook with me atm so I am not sure how this will hold up against new and nasty eldar tactics and the like (*nudge nudge wink wink* no offence meant). Please give me your thoughts on it and tell me how you think I could improve. This is meant to be a fun list, whilst still being semi-competitive.

Thank you for reading.

I've not used Khan, so can't really comment. He has some nice tricks, if you think he fits your playstyle the best, you would know better then I do.

I think you are a little light on anti-tank fire, also no AA options.

I'm not sure you are going to get your points back from the terminator unit. It's a lot of eggs in one basket.

I like small assault squads

Who's camping your home objective?

In general I like to run squads at 5 man, or full sized. 10 men gives you the option to combat squad, and extra special weapons. Usually worth it. You are also missing some weapon options on the bikes

You do kick out a good deal of bolter fire, with a chunk of it being pretty mobile. But besides bolters, you only have 6 missiles and 3 flamers being shot. To be blunt, that's closer to what I expect from a 750 list.

Now there are a few ways you could go.

Full bike list, Get Khan his bike, swap one or both of the tacs for more bike squads. Bikes can be loaded up with plasma and/or melta. This is a fairly big change to your list.

Get an attack bike and some meltagunners for the one bike squad you do have. Swap one of the tac squads for a MM/M squad, with a c-melta on the sarge. This gives you some anti tank fire, and doesn't cost that many points. Trimming the assaults down to 5 man, or cutting the terminaotrs in half, a/o dropping some CC weapons for your sarges would cover it. But you need something besides the one chainfist to deal with AV14.

I've tried to focus on shooting, but still being kick-ass in combat. With my list, I was trying to get into combat as soon as possible, while delivering a huge punch in shooting and weakening them. That's I chose the 10 man assault squad for the combat. They should do well, and be fairly protected by the rhinos. Regarding the cyclone missile launchers, someone said that they can punch though weak-medium tanks and get glancing hits, and that was what I was generally trying to do. Get enough massed bolter fire to wipe out light tanks and use the load of powerfist attacks for medium ones. Same with fliers. But if you have any suggestions as to what I should do about fliers then I would be glad to hear them.

I have no idea who’s camping in my base and I hadn’t really thought about it. Should I drop 5 men in the assault squad and get 5 scout snipers?

Nevelon makes some good points (per usual with list suggestions).

The main problems I see is that this list is torn between two possibilities: a dakka filled foot list or a Khan bike list.

HQ: I'm not too familiar with Khan, but I know that, like a biker captain, you run him if you want bikes to be troops. You can run him on foot, but if you do, why not just use a libby on foot? Unless you're really getting the most out of your named C:SM character, they're probably not worth taking, imo.

FA: I'm not a huge fan of assault squads, but if you're going to use them, they need to be small or combat-squad-able. That versatility, being able to use them as two squads or one, is worth a lot more than the measly 18 points required to get another marine. I also really don't like PFs with my marines. By the time you get to fight with it you're probably dead against most cc, and the squishie targets won't need it. Also, versus vehicles, you have krak grenades, which are just as good. Lose it and grab another flamer and marine (if you can).

Elites: Two squads of 5 terminators will probably get you more mileage than one. The ability to split your targets is helpful.

Final Advice: The list is really split among a bike list and a reserve list. If you want to go bike, you normally have to go heavy bikes, taking advantage of their use as troops. If you want to go that way, lose the tacs and get more bikes.

If you go reserve, I'd lose the bikes and get more teleport homers down, maybe in some scout snipers, or just on the tac squads. The tele homers make terminators become even more dangerous. Two squads of 5, with the ability to support any tac squad/scout squad can provide power support when needed, in a position where it can really do some damage.

Of course, if you really like Khan and the feel of the list, keep it as is.

If I were you, I'd go for a bike-heavy list (not using Khan, he isn't that good and, unlike biker captains, he only allows bike squads of 5 or more models as troops, in stead of all bikes), with Land Speeders with MMs as support, MM Attack Bikes and Scouts with Snipers holding the home objective, I've seen this list work *way* too well before..

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
If I were you, I'd go for a bike-heavy list (not using Khan, he isn't that good and, unlike biker captains, he only allows bike squads of 5 or more models as troops, in stead of all bikes), with Land Speeders with MMs as support, MM Attack Bikes and Scouts with Snipers holding the home objective, I've seen this list work *way* too well before..

I'm almsot positive all bike captains are 5 for troops. At least in C:SM. Other codexes might differ.

I do have a couple of landspeeders and attack bikes. I tried using them, but I couldn't do it because it kinda requires a full bike army, and I only have about 8 or 9 bikes. I could check out the ravenwing codex and see about them. I have a dreadnought (not as good anymore) and 10 terminators so maybe I could pull off a death/ravenwing force. However belial is really expensive and I can't be bothered buying him

Regarding the terminators, when combat does arise, I was going to combat squad them and get the 2 cmls in one squad and put khan in the other to quickly wipe out the approaching enemy. I might be mistaken but are you allowed to do that?

I really like fast armies (eg. assault squad and bikes, rhinos and the like) with a strong anchor point (terminator and HQ).

I got rid of the other 5 men in the assault squad, and got scout snipers to guard my home base. The snipers have 36" range so they should be able to hit fairly well. I am thinking about getting a lascannon on them for some anti-tank, flier and delivering a strong punch. Is that wise, or are there better choices for that role?

The idea of using Khan was that he could give furious charge to the termies, and strike at his initiative, which would be pretty beast. He also gives that extra run to the tactical squads and can cause instant death which is useful for challenges. He is also pretty cheap for boosting the terminators hugely, compared with the other options.

There is another option that I've pondered. I could use Sicarius and scouts with teleport homers for terminators. Get him to go with the tactical squads and the assault squad to cause extra anxiety for the opposition. Then the whole army would get ld10 and atsknf, which if better with fear being added.

I've been toying with Shrike, Lysander, Kantor Sicarius and Khan, but don't know how they would fit in. I have the models in my list, 2 landspeeders, a whirlwind, vindicator, dread, 2 attack bikes and a handful of scouts. A couple of chappys and libaraians are there as well. If anyone has any good ideas then I would be happy to hear.

Thank you all for commenting and the feedback.

 Nevelon wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
If I were you, I'd go for a bike-heavy list (not using Khan, he isn't that good and, unlike biker captains, he only allows bike squads of 5 or more models as troops, in stead of all bikes), with Land Speeders with MMs as support, MM Attack Bikes and Scouts with Snipers holding the home objective, I've seen this list work *way* too well before..

I'm almsot positive all bike captains are 5 for troops. At least in C:SM. Other codexes might differ.

Nope, I've checked ;3

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
If I were you, I'd go for a bike-heavy list (not using Khan, he isn't that good and, unlike biker captains, he only allows bike squads of 5 or more models as troops, in stead of all bikes), with Land Speeders with MMs as support, MM Attack Bikes and Scouts with Snipers holding the home objective, I've seen this list work *way* too well before..

I'm almsot positive all bike captains are 5 for troops. At least in C:SM. Other codexes might differ.

Nope, I've checked ;3

Are you using a digital codex? Are there different printings? English or a translation? I have my codex in hand, open to page 132. In the text box it reads:

Mounted Assault: If your army includes a Captain on Space Marine bike, Space Marine Bike squads of at least five models may be taken as Troops choices

This is almost identical to the text on page 130 for Kor'sarro Khan, just with his name and that of his bike instead of generic ones.

At this point we have both checked, and come up with different answers. So something is fishy.

Ah well. I only have 9 bikes anyway, not enough to make 2 squads. I could but 4 bikes and an attack bike in each though...
That would either give me dakka or anti tank, which I need.

I might actually drop khan and have another HQ leading the terminators or bikes or something. Maybe kahn or, since the units aren't that strong, being only 5 man, I could take Sicarius in a tactical squad.

Does anyone have any suggestions about what is really good against fliers?

btw I can't reply until about 4:00 australian eastern time because of school. Sorry about the inconvenience.

 Nevelon wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
If I were you, I'd go for a bike-heavy list (not using Khan, he isn't that good and, unlike biker captains, he only allows bike squads of 5 or more models as troops, in stead of all bikes), with Land Speeders with MMs as support, MM Attack Bikes and Scouts with Snipers holding the home objective, I've seen this list work *way* too well before..

I'm almsot positive all bike captains are 5 for troops. At least in C:SM. Other codexes might differ.

Nope, I've checked ;3

Are you using a digital codex? Are there different printings? English or a translation? I have my codex in hand, open to page 132. In the text box it reads:

Mounted Assault: If your army includes a Captain on Space Marine bike, Space Marine Bike squads of at least five models may be taken as Troops choices

This is almost identical to the text on page 130 for Kor'sarro Khan, just with his name and that of his bike instead of generic ones.

At this point we have both checked, and come up with different answers. So something is fishy.

I read it in the SM Captain's thing, Space Marine Captains mounted on bikes may take Space Marine bikes as troops
:S

My C:SM also points out squads of at least five models become troops

So I could get a squad of 4 bikes and an attack bike, and get another squad of 5. Good to know.

Does anyone have suggestions about how to deal with fliers? I was planning to just load them with shells but Im sure there is a more efficient way to kil them

Well, our own flyers are not bad in a dogfight. Talons are not that expensive in points, and the raven is a tough little gunboat. Other options are an ADL or other fortification.

Massed ground fire can work, but you need to either be lucky or use a lot of it.

And the last option is just to ignore it. Focus on killing his stuff on the table. Play for the mission objectives. Use mobility to get into their blind spots.

Ork Marine wrote:
So I could get a squad of 4 bikes and an attack bike, and get another squad of 5. Good to know.

Does anyone have suggestions about how to deal with fliers? I was planning to just load them with shells but Im sure there is a more efficient way to kil them

On the bikes: a combat squad of bikes is: 1 squad of 5 bikes, 1 squad with 2 bikes and 1 attack bike (IIRC)

As for fliers:
ADL w/ quad gun is the cheapest way I know of dealing with fliers (and it gives cover saves for free).

thank you for that. I might get a flier, or put a scout sniper squad in the ADL.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What flier is better points value in your opinions?

I'd go stormtalon. One or two are cheap and fairly reliable at taking out fliers (though for the relative cheapness of the ADL [especially if you scratchbuild], I'd say ADL to test stuff out).

Some say other fliers, but 2 stormtalons are roughly the same monetary cost as a stormraven, but you can use only one at cheaper points values (etc.)

Again, ADL is cheaper and probably okay for 1500. Also, if you don't have a big flier meta, you can also probably sit them out initially (and then make changes after playing some and seeing how you like the list.)

Cool. Thanks for the advice. I'll set to work making a new list and try to post it as soon as possible

I've found that an ADL and a talon is mostly OK for normal play. If someone is spamming, you won't have enough AA, but there is not a whole lot you can do about that. But against lists that have 1-2 flyers, it's enough to give you air coverage.

Another thing to consider when choosing what to fly is what your FOC looks like. Do you have space in FA or HS? Particularly when taking two talons. That chokes out your FA to one spot for other things unless you go 2xFOC. Whereas the one slot you give to the raven is a pretty powerful one. This might be a non-issue depending on your list, but it is something to keep in mind.

for my list I am using an Assault squad and bikes so I can probably only fit in 1 talon or raven. An adl is a must. Particularly with it being new, everyone will want one. An ADL seems like a cheap way to eliminate filers.

There really isn't anything I can do against fliers, but I have enough shots and missile launchers to, if I focus my fire, wipe out a couple. *hopeful*

A captain on bike with some upgrades which I'll work out later - up to 170 points
2 tactical squads, one with melta and power sword - 220 points aiming to get close.
The other squad with missile launcher and no power sword - 205 points aiming to stand back and provide assistance if its needed.
7 bikes with no upgrades
5 man assault squad with power fist and flamer - 125 points
10 terminators with chainfist and 2 cmls - 465 points
ADL
5 scout snipers holding the main base behind the ADL.
1500 points

I'm very short on melta/plasma and other upgrades that I'd normally use on the bikes. I haven't managed to fit in a flier, but I have fit everything else that I wanted in. As I said before I am very short on upgrades. One thing I might not need is one cml. I am going to play a game some time this week so I will try a couple of different variations of the list depending on what I come up against. Do any of you guys think that the cml is worth it when I could get 6 combi weapons for the same price? And why? And if the cml is worth it, what else could I chop off the list?

I'd gear up the bike squad, even if you need to shave a guy off for the points.

Combis are nice to have, but if you are going all-in with a 10 man terminator squad, why stop halfway?

The list look good. Some more special a/o heavy weapons would be nice, but you should be able to give a respectable showing for yourself with what you have. After a few games you can tweak it if you find gaps.

Thank you for all the time you've put in everyone. You've all been really big helps.

The terminators and bikes are going in together so they should have serious death dealing mojo going on. Thats what I'm aiming for and that's why I want to put combi-weapons on them.

I really need some more special weapons in the list. I'll play a few games with this list, and see what needs changing.

Thanks for all of the input.

You could put a squad of 5 termies on your adl with quad gun (because they're less likely of being taken out then other troops) for the aa. Then have your scout sniPers hold up in some ruins or building and have your tactical squads carry out the vanguard (frontal assault) with support from your bikes. If you use sicarus you can infiltrate with one of your tactical squads, but if you want to take bikes as a troop choice then you need a captain on a bike.

You raise some good points that I hadn't thought about.

Nevelon pointed out that I need some troop choice guarding the home objective. If the home objective is in the side or the middle, then sure, I will put 5 terminators on the adl. If that happens, then I will do a full deep strike army with Sicarius, termies, scouts and stuff like that.

I had the assault squad behind the tactical squads rhinos because they are somewhat fragile, and prone to direct fire. Rhinos provide good cover. Bikes on the other hand, are toughness 5, 5+ jink save, 4+ if turbo boosting, normal 3+ armor save, and I plan to have them hitting (shooting) and running (into cover, not literally with khans rules). That's why the assault squad carries out the vanguard. I was going to have Khan and the terminators as the outflanking vanguard with the bikes supporting, but I've since decided not to go that way.

I hadn't thought about using tactical squads as vanguard. I might actually do that and use the 10 footfloging terminators as the backbone of the army. Thanks for the idea!

Also the assault squad has a fist and flamer which is great for shock troops, and the reason that that role often falls to the terminators. (powerfists and a heavy flamer for 5 points is great)

Thanks for pointing out some stuff that I hadn't thought about.

Okay some suggestions quickly about what has been added:

1) Assault termies are useless on an ADL in back field. They're your fire power, you want them up front! Only one weapon option gives them more than 24" range, and it's only got two shots per turn! You're paying 40 pts. a pop for 4 men standing on an ADL. Snipers work on the line because: A) they're scoring, B) they're cheap, C) they have a fairly long range.

2) If you want to footslog termies, go DA, not 'nilla marines. You don't footslog them in 'Nilla because they die too easily, and can't get where you need them, quickly. They're main power is tele-ing into the field and shooting things where you need it, not running up the field.

3) Assault squads are fragile and should take advantage of cover, but don't use your Tac squads to do it! Tac squads aren't strong enough to act as a frontal assault much of the time, they'll be eaten alive. They don't have the firepower, and if they get into an assault, they're going to be in trouble.

Use the assault squads as area deniers (with sarge with a MB or something). Make them threaten shooty troops and make certain board areas undesirable, of make low-armor transports think twice about entering the area.

4) If you're using tac termies, they're support units. They're not going out to kill target A, B, or C on their own, they're move-able firepower that comes down where you need it. Here's my best attempt at a metaphor on it:

Armies that focus on tac termies are kinda like fencers; they're all about controlled application of force. Your termies DS in to a controlled location (hopefully with tele-homers/beacons) and provide the force necessary to rebuff an attack, counter a powerful unit.

I love Khan, I use him as my lord for both Vanilla and Sons of Orar army, besides being cheap, when he's on Moondrakken (Which must be taken if he is to have bikes as troops!), he's a force to be reckoned with... At the last State tournament in 5 games he insta killed a Dreadknight, a tyrannofex, Tervigon, and several DE Characters whose names I cannot remember...
If I was you I'd stick to a few 5 man bike squads, giving them either the Melta/Flamer combo's, or the MM/Melta combo, when they outflank they cant charge so I use them to pop tanks, or remove pesky Heavy units hiding on the back of units (wound allocation at its best)... As for the aegis, don't do it, if you get an aegis get the comms, that way you guys will have a better chance of turning up, nothing worse than the khan turning up on turn 3 once everything else is dead, also the gun is a targetable model, so it doesn't matter if the gun is controlled by terminators, 3 splinter cannons and its dead first turn anyways bye bye 50pts... Go the talons, although they can't outflank, they will give you AA as well as some extra dakka to take out those meatier squads your bikes couldn't get too... I prefer 2xFlamer for assault marines, can never have enough flamers for these guys...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe just go the 5 terminators, so you can get some of those goodies you are missing...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And maybe the two rhino squads behind the aegis so you don't get tabled before your reserves arrive...

1) Ok I see your point.
2 and 4) That's why with my original list I had the terminators with Khan. The were the only slow component of my army and they were outflanking so it didn't matter. They were going to the side where all of the heavy support of my opponent was and were going to get right in there. If I don't get Khan, the terminators will move up the field and fire at everything. If the opposition breaks free the terminators will kill it.
3) I was going to use the rhinos as cover. I could use the ruins or something else as cover, but in case there wasn't any other cover, the rhinos will have to suffice.

-5 terminators, get assault cannon, get another squad of men, and some upgrades might do well, but I'm worried that if I do that, the army won't have any real punch to it. It might pay off, wheras 10 is harder to kill and causes greater fear. Also it opens up 2 cmls. They are really good and are almost always useful.

What sort of points am I looking at spending on the quad gun on the ADL?

Quad gun + ADL = 100 points on the dot. It's surprisingly cheap for what it can do

@ Ork Marine,
sorry, wasn't specifically responding to you as much as the point before you.

oh right. Sorry about that.

I'm not sure how I can fit in 100 points. For my list summary earlier I did the ADl as 50 points. With the quad gun It will be 50 points over the limit but I really need it. I'm not sure what else to chop off.

Hmm

I'd say you could lose the two PWs on the Tacs, and the PF on the assault squad.

Then again, sometimes models look too cool/you'd rather have the power weapon in a cinch so they aren't really fun to remove.

I'd say you could lose the PF on the assault squad and take a melta-bomb instead, and maybe shave down a bit on the captain? I mean, at minimum it's going to be 150 for bike w/ artificer armor...

yeah, that's a tough one.

HQ:
Bike Captain, Art. Armor, Power sword/maul/axe, mb: 170

Troops:
10x Tac w/melta-gun, ML, tele homer, mb, rhino: 225

9x Space Marine Bikes, w/ attack bike and mm, mb: 295
(combat squadded: Squad A of 5, squad B of 3 +Attack bike)

5x Snipers w/telehomer: 105

Elites:
2x 5 Tac Termie squads with ACs (or CMLs), one with chain fist: 465

Fast Attack:
5x Assault marines with flamer, mb: 105

Heavy Support:
1 Whirlwind: 85
1 Vindicator: 115

Fortification:
ADL + Quad Gun: 100

Total: 1500 on the dot (I believe).

I don't know if this is the style of list you really want, but to me it's a neat way of pushing the idea of a heavy bike list while incorporating some anti-tank and infantry support (Which fit nice behind an ADL.

If you don't like the increase in the number of HS, you can always add another assault squad and remove the vindi.