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Can orks use anything from any codex and just say it is "Looted" because orks steal everything


I have seen Looted Heldrakes and Leman Russ' and things like that


and can they use these in games

No.

More correctly, yes

But whatever it is, it will use the rules for Looted Wagon in the heavy support section of the Ork Codex.

A looted Heldrake could be kitted out as a Burna Bomma or Dakkajet, and use those rules, or you could fit wheels on it and run it as a Looted Wagon with Skorcha

You don't get to use the actual unit rules.

That is honestly the best use of a helldrake I have ever heard.

You could also just have it be on foot with an Ork riding it. BOOM, Deff/Mekka/Mega dread, or perhaps a Mega Armoured Warboss/Ghazghull (not sure about the rules concerning making models bigger than usual. I heard its fine)

There is no official size for a looted wagon.

The 'standard' one from the book is usually a looted Russ, but you could loot an Imperator Titan if you felt like it.

Of course it would only cost 35 Pts + options , and work like an inferior Rhino in-game...

Looted (insert biggest possible vehicle here) zooms ahead of your army and blocks LoS. Proceed to stomp face.

Looted POS has Av 11 and 3 HP. Dies in a fiery explosion turn 1 ...

Looted wagons are a bit gak, most of the time (and not fast.. trundle more than zoom...)

 Dakkamite wrote:
Looted (insert biggest possible vehicle here) zooms ahead of your army and blocks LoS. Proceed to stomp face.

And then your opponent tells you to stop being TFG and modeling for advantage, and refuses to play against you until you bring a looted Rhino like everyone else.

In the 3rd edition Codex you could take 0-1 Looted Vehicles, anything but Landraiders. Looted Basilisk the far and away best choice due to Ork BS. You could add Ork vehicle upgrades like RPJ and Spikes and Blades.

You could either get upto 3 if they all cost less than 50 points after weapons and upgrades, (pretty much Rhinos only) or one vehicle 51 points or more.

The spirit of Looted vehicles still lives on not only in actual Looted Wagons but in Battlewagons (my three are all looted Leman Russ's) Bikes (Locclo uses Marines, Necrons, and even chaos demons as looted BikerNobz!), heavy weapons (my 3 Lobbas are a trio of IG mortars up gunned to Ork standards), and of course: The Loota! (All of mine are second edition Orks with IG missile launchers painted blue naturally).

I've seen SM Landspeeders used as Wartrakks as well.

Playing Orks gives a modeler the Fluffiest use of other armies' models outside of Allies.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Looted (insert biggest possible vehicle here) zooms ahead of your army and blocks LoS. Proceed to stomp face.

And then your opponent tells you to stop being TFG and modeling for advantage, and refuses to play against you until you bring a looted Rhino like everyone else.

Its not MFA if I use something the same size as a legal vehicle. You of all people should know that.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Its not MFA if I use something the same size as a legal vehicle.

Nonsense. It isn't MFA if you use something the same size as the legal model for the vehicle whose rules you're using. You can't just declare that since vehicle X is a legal 40k unit you can use something that size to represent any other unit you want. A Sentinel is not a Land Raider.

What the feth are you talking about? Theres no predesignated 'looted vehicle' such as the Rhino you mentioned. If I want a Looted Land Raider because it blocks more LoS then tough titties, I'm gonna have me a Looted Land Raider, your accusations of TFG-ism be damned.

 Dakkamite wrote:
What the feth are you talking about? Theres no predesignated 'looted vehicle' such as the Rhino you mentioned. If I want a Looted Land Raider because it blocks more LoS then tough titties, I'm gonna have me a Looted Land Raider, your accusations of TFG-ism be damned.

And then I'm going to tell you to stop being TFG and modeling for advantage, and I'm not going to play against you until you do. Like it or not, the accepted convention is that a looted wagon is a Rhino-size vehicle, and using a Land Raider because you want to block LOS better is textbook MFA. Until you accept that you're probably going to "have" your looted Land Raider all alone on an empty table.

Seriously, your just talking gak now Peregrine. Theres absolutely nothing, RAW, common sense or 'accepted convention' (by at best in your part of the world, and at worst by you personally) that says my Looted Wagon has to be the size that you want it to be. Certainly it cannot be an Apocalypse vehicle or some scratch built monstrosity covering half the board, but it certainly doesn't have to be a Rhino.

You do not speak for all players, as your frequent claims that 'close combat shouldn't be in this game' have demonstrated. We can put it to a poll if you like ~ you get a two thirds majority saying "Rhino only" and I'll agree with you, otherwise, you accept that it can be whatever legal vehicle the controlling player likes.

Looted golden throne. Because they can.

I always got the impression the Golden Throne was like, a hundred times bigger than that

Question here, Peregrine, (no sarcasm.. just genuinely curious)

Where exactly does it say that the accepted size for a Looted Wagon is a rhino?

The picture in the codex is a Russ, which is larger than a rhino.

Granted the IA 8 has a picture of a Looted Wagon that happens to be a rhino, but there is nothing in the book, or the Ork dex that says it has to be a rhino chassis. The Ork dex mentions chimera and Russ hulls, or even anti-gravity skiffs.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Theres absolutely nothing, RAW, common sense or 'accepted convention' (by at best in your part of the world, and at worst by you personally) that says my Looted Wagon has to be the size that you want it to be.

RAW you can't use scratchbuilt models at all.

Certainly it cannot be an Apocalypse vehicle or some scratch built monstrosity covering half the board, but it certainly doesn't have to be a Rhino.

Why is this "certain"? If you can, as you are arguing, use a much larger Land Raider model as the looted wagon, why can't you cover half the board with it? Why is one instance of MFA acceptable but the other one isn't?

We can put it to a poll if you like ~ you get a two thirds majority saying "Rhino only" and I'll agree with you, otherwise, you accept that it can be whatever legal vehicle the controlling player likes.

Lol. So you can't even come up with a fair challenge? Why are you assumed to be right unless I get a 2/3 majority, not just more than 50%? And why is the alternative to "must be a Rhino" necessarily "anything you want" instead of (for example) "Rhino or LRBT"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ascalam wrote:
Where exactly does it say that the accepted size for a Looted Wagon is a rhino?

The only official model GW made was the FW looted Rhino. So I wouldn't require that it be based on a Rhino and only a Rhino, but I would expect the model to be about the same size. Using a Land Raider, especially with the admitted intent of gaining LOS blocking/cover for more friendly models behind it, would not be acceptable.

The picture in the codex is a Russ, which is larger than a rhino.

Not by all that much. A LRBT is still roughly the same size as a Rhino/Chimera/etc, and much smaller than a Land Raider.

RAW you can't use scratchbuilt models at all.

As Ascalam said in another thread on this topic

 Ascalam wrote:
Well, except for the FAQ.

I suppose it would come down to whether you consider the FAQ's to be RAW.

Q. How are the boomgun and other weapons mounted on a Looted
Wagon? (p54)
A. Players are free to mount the weapons on their converted or
scratch-built models however they see fit (i.e. in a turret,
sponson, hull or otherwise), as long as this is absolutely clear
by looking at the model.

Even without that, I'm sure you can guess the amount of feths I give about RAW in that instance.

Gotta also point out, not many Rhinos out there with a gun that would qualify as a "boomgun". God knows why a cannon strapped to a Rhino is ok, but a Leman Russ with the Cannon already attached is not.

Why is this "certain"?

They're apocalypse only vehicles, I imagine that would extend to to their use as Looted Wagon templates outside of Apocalypse games. You want to argue that Apocalypse vehicles can be used in 40k games in this manner, thats a different argument entirely.

If you can, as you are arguing, use a much larger Land Raider model as the looted wagon, why can't you cover half the board with it? Why is one instance of MFA acceptable but the other one isn't?

To draw on that thread again, I personally have drawn the line this way and will leave the "board sized looted vehicle" or "marble sized looted vehicle" users to argue their case independently;

 Dakkamite wrote:
Lol, so the RAW are "Looted Wagon can be any size it goddamn likes"

I'm not one to abuse that, but I'll keep it in mind if I ever encounter someone who is deserving of it.

Lol. So you can't even come up with a fair challenge? Why are you assumed to be right unless I get a 2/3 majority, not just more than 50%?

You are the one who is trying to prove a statement here, not me, and 51% is just as ambiguous as 49% ~ I would take neither to be the 'conclusive' overall view of the community. I've seen two thirds used in parliamentary systems and such, so I'd say thats a more accurate indication of general opinion.

And why is the alternative to "must be a Rhino" necessarily "anything you want" instead of (for example) "Rhino or LRBT"?

You are saying "Rhino sized vehicle only", and I am simply disagreeing with that. I'm not arguing for a specific vehicle (and if I was, wouldn't it be a Land Raider not a Leman Russ?), because my opinion would cover Manticores, Falcon Grav tanks, Land Raiders, and all sorts of other vehicles besides the Leman Russ. Who knows, maybe even Land Speeders could be included, but I have no particular opinion with regards to that.

Edit:

Not by all that much. A LRBT is still roughly the same size as a Rhino/Chimera/etc, and much smaller than a Land Raider.

Lol, roughly? What happened to CAW? Rhino sized, to the micron, or bust.

**peregrine's answer.... quote function is playing up on my tablet **

Ascalam wrote:
Where exactly does it say that the accepted size for a Looted Wagon is a rhino?


The only official model GW made was the FW looted Rhino. So I wouldn't require that it be based on a Rhino and only a Rhino, but I would expect the model to be about the same size. Using a Land Raider, especially with the admitted intent of gaining LOS blocking/cover for more friendly models behind it, would not be acceptable.

The picture in the codex is a Russ, which is larger than a rhino.


Not by all that much. A LRBT is still roughly the same size as a Rhino/Chimera/etc, and much smaller than a Land Raider.


*****

The Looted Rhino may be the only official model they've made, but they do make special mention for conversions/scratchbuilds. In some ways i'd almost rather they went back to the old way of doing Looted Wagons, where they listed what vehicles you could loot from which codex, and you used the rules that those units had.

The LRBT isn't that much bigger than a Rhino, but it is still larger. There is no clearly defined place to draw the line, as there are vehicles in a range of sizes from rhino to LR.

I'd be fine VS a looted Land Raider or even a Looted Monolith, as the statline doesn't really change, but if you want to house-rule that all looted wagons must be rhino-sized then that's fine Other folks can of course house rule it otherwise for their games.

 Ascalam wrote:
The Looted Rhino may be the only official model they've made, but they do make special mention for conversions/scratchbuilds.

That's why I would accept a scratchbuilt/converted one, as long as it's roughly the same size as the official model. Looting a LRBT might be illegal RAW, but it's not going to make enough difference to be worth complaining about.

as the statline doesn't really change

But the stat line isn't what matters, we're talking about someone who is using the larger model with the explicit intent of having it block LOS to more models behind it and screen the assault units as they move up the field. Having a Land Raider or Monolith model is a huge advantage, and textbook MFA.

Looting a LRBT might be illegal RAW,

Just pointing out, it isn't illegal RAW, it's illegal according to your CAW.

Out of curiosity, do you have a link to the looted rhino on FW?

I'm on the site, but not seeing it anywhere, or was it just someone's modification of a Rhino for the IA book's pictures?

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just pointing out, it isn't illegal RAW, it's illegal according to your CAW.

Please show me in the rulebook where you are permitted to use conversions or scratchbuilt models at all.

 Ascalam wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you have a link to the looted rhino on FW?

It seems to be OOP, along with a few other older Ork models. That's happened to a lot of stuff recently, I guess the looted vehicles didn't sell well enough to keep them in production.

There was the looted Rhino:



And I think this was also an official model, and about the same size as a Rhino:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Just pointing out, it isn't illegal RAW, it's illegal according to your CAW.

Please show me in the rulebook where you are permitted to use conversions or scratchbuilt models at all.

The FAQ I linked earlier, and as your sig says, "everything GW publishes for standard 40k... is part of the game. You can choose not to play with or against any of them, but don't pretend that your choice is anything but a house rule. "

Stop trying to house rule me into a Rhino Peregrine.

Also you seem to have ignored my earlier post.

 Dakkamite wrote:
The FAQ I linked earlier

Which only applies IF you have converted or scratchbuilt model. It does not give you permission to use one. It's just GW's recognition that even though scratchbuilds and conversions are not legal RAW most people agree to use them as a house rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
Gotta also point out, not many Rhinos out there with a gun that would qualify as a "boomgun". God knows why a cannon strapped to a Rhino is ok, but a Leman Russ with the Cannon already attached is not.

I guess I need to say, again, that the important part is "Rhino size", not "a Rhino model", and that looted LRBT would probably be ok?

WThey're apocalypse only vehicles, I imagine that would extend to to their use as Looted Wagon templates outside of Apocalypse games. You want to argue that Apocalypse vehicles can be used in 40k games in this manner, thats a different argument entirely.

But you're not using the Apocalypse rules, just a model, and models are not divided into Apocalypse and standard 40k. Your choice to allow one significantly larger model but not another is purely your arbitrary preference.

You are the one who is trying to prove a statement here, not me, and 51% is just as ambiguous as 49% ~ I would take neither to be the 'conclusive' overall view of the community. I've seen two thirds used in parliamentary systems and such, so I'd say thats a more accurate indication of general opinion.

That's nice. It also stacks the odds nicely in your favor, especially with such a biased question. I see no reason to bother with a poll that only exists for you to prove a point, not to take an honest survey of the community.

Lol, roughly? What happened to CAW? Rhino sized, to the micron, or bust.

Sigh. Did you miss the part where the scratchbuilt vehicle is already illegal, so we're discussing what a reasonable house rule is? Because in that context arguing about exact sizes is silly.

Bullsh*t. They're officially recognising scratch built, and converted Looted Wagons as legit. In fact, you could easily read that FAQ as a statement that 100% of looted wagons are scratch built, as it refers to 'Looted Wagons' as 'scratch built or converted models'.

Hmmm, one of these debates again...

well going of the previous codex that had the looted wagon option where you could 'loot' one from another army:

"you may included one looted vehicle worth 51+pts or one to three vehicles worth 50 points or less... which all count as one heavy support choice.

Type: A looted vehicle may be chosen from one of the following army list entries in the Warhammer 40k rulebook: Space marines, Imperial Guard

Space marines : rhino, razorback, any predator variant, land raider
Imperial Guard : Chimera, Hellhound, Griffon, any Leman Russ variant, Basilisk

All have the same cost as its parent army but is BS2

Dont Press Dat..."

Going off that, I would say the range for a looted wagons size is in between a rhino or a land raider, with the two being the upper and lower limits of whats acceptable for scratch builds. Outside of this range I would say is MFA as you may try to hide a boomgun on a tiny wagon, or run a naked one the size of a baneblade to hide behind. Other than footprint, height is also a consideration for LOS pruposes.

And yeah, the old codex says it has to be a converted model from SM or IG to be 'legal'. But thats really only important for tournies and events and such. So casual play scratch builds are okay, but otherwise a scratchbuild could potentially be a problem.

Peregrine has a good point.

A reasonable definition of MFA seems to be "specifically modifying or creating a model which gains undue advantages based on the size or shape".

Given that, if you say to me "LOL look at my looted monolith, I can totally block tons of LOS with it!" I'm gonna be pretty unhappy that you did this, and maybe reluctant to throw down my models on the table with someone who would go to that length to get such an advantage.

But there is the rule of cool. If you have a totally awesome looking model and don't be the d-bag telling everyone how you made a model in a way to block LOS, then it will likely be accepted.

Modelling is done on the rule of cool basis. Being a d-bag isn't following the rule of cool.

The looted wagon is an AV 11 unit, while obviously this is an abstract idea a Land Raider or Monolith seem like questionable choices to represent such a thing. The rhino is an obvious choice, with the Russ being on the upper end of accepting without thinking twice. Landraiders and Monoliths better look pretty damn nice if you want to use them as a Looted.

My understanding of modelling from advantage stems from my thread on creating a custom Aegis.

Building an Aegis that is smaller or larger than the official model for the purposes of blocking more or less LoS is MFA.

But in the case of the Looted Wagon, since it has no official model and instead, what you might call a 'selection of appropriate base vehicles to choose from', I don't see why you couldn't choose to use a smaller or larger option from the list of acceptable base vehicles to best fit your needs ~ to me, thats no different from choosing a power sword or a power fist on an IC. Or picking a Predator chassis over a Rhino one because it has a more appropriate boomgun.

Edit: Btw, theres a guy at my club who uses one of those Ork Trukks from 20 years ago thats half the size of a normal trukk. Stated reason is because, well, its half the size of a normal trukk. MFA? D-bag?