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Ok so where is the logic behind my Marine Master not being able to hide behind his tree, whilst using his power armour and iron halo, its not like if he gets shot by a bolter he turns his iron halo off of if he gets hit by a lascannon he jumps out of the tree? I really think multiple saves is something we need!

To be honest, stacking saves is already quite potent, being able to take all of them one after another would make it absurdly difficult to inflict damage. For instance, picture a squad of THSS Terminators that can take their 2+ armor, 3++ invulnerable from their stormshields, a 5++ invulnerable from Terminator Armor, 5+ from cover, and 5+ FNP from Endurance if something somehow gets through all of that - it would be virtually impossible to kill even one barring insanely bad rolling.

For cinematic purposes, you can always assume that you saved based on what you roll. To use your example, on a 3 the shot bypassed all other protections and stopped at your character's armor, on a 4 the Iron Halo stopped it, and so forth.

Logic has little place in 40k's mechanics, to the frustration & general bewilderment of some players (myself included). However as it stands Strat_N8 is right, besides what's your Chapter Master hugging trees for Get out there and fight like a super human

 Strat_N8 wrote:
To be honest, stacking saves is already quite potent, being able to take all of them one after another would make it absurdly difficult to inflict damage. For instance, picture a squad of THSS Terminators that can take their 2+ armor, 3++ invulnerable from their stormshields, a 5++ invulnerable from Terminator Armor, 5+ from cover, and 5+ FNP from Endurance if something somehow gets through all of that - it would be virtually impossible to kill even one barring insanely bad rolling.

Very true, I have to agree there it could lead to some nasty amount of saves which only my eldar friend could fail and that would be too unfair on armies that rely on shooting attacks.

For cinematic purposes, you can always assume that you saved based on what you roll. To use your example, on a 3 the shot bypassed all other protections and stopped at your character's armor, on a 4 the Iron Halo stopped it, and so forth.

Yep, thats a good idea, never thought about it like that, but then again, usuall playing nids im used to my gaunts never really having a save and nothing every having and invulnerable.....



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Logic has little place in 40k's mechanics, to the frustration & general bewilderment of some players (myself included). However as it stands Strat_N8 is right, besides what's your Chapter Master hugging trees for Get out there and fight like a super human

My super human is a coward, and proud of it, its something to do with the nasty amount of bright lances there is hanging around......however on occasion he has been a one man army, even more so with my CSM lord who juts runs around slaughtering hundreds of innocent marine sergeants in challenges, tooling himself up with boons of chaos, until he turns into a spawn in the last turn....

As the space marines video game famously declared, "cover is for pussies" get out there and anoint yourself in your foe's blood!

 Suicidal Grot wrote:
Ok so where is the logic behind my Marine Master not being able to hide behind his tree, whilst using his power armour and iron halo, its not like if he gets shot by a bolter he turns his iron halo off of if he gets hit by a lascannon he jumps out of the tree? I really think multiple saves is something we need!

You say this now, but when your games grind to a halt when your opponent is taking save after save, it won't be so cool. Yes, a space marine captain is not as invincible as he is in the books, but there is a reason for that, its called game design.

No, we do not need multiple saves. Take your best available save and cross your fingers.

 Suicidal Grot wrote:
Ok so where is the logic behind my Marine Master not being able to hide behind his tree, whilst using his power armour and iron halo, its not like if he gets shot by a bolter he turns his iron halo off of if he gets hit by a lascannon he jumps out of the tree? I really think multiple saves is something we need!

It actually has a pretty good logic behind it: what do you think, how the hell would a tree protect your Captain from a hit that pierces even the mighty Iron Halo? And from the other way: why would your Refractor Field protect you from a shot that blasted through a brick wall?

You always use your best possible defensive method against all shots. Because if it fails, then how would the other (weaker) methods make any difference?

Because cover is meant to represent difficulty in targetting.

If you have look behind your chapter master you'll see a 50ft wraithknight hiding behind the same tree

I remember that in the crimson fists book pedro had to consciously turn it on and off at times to save power.

This is one of the reasons cover would be better represented by a to hit modifier than a save. Less rolling, and more equal benefit from cover. After all if makes little sense for a "hit" or "wound" to be negated by cover.

Logically (if you want to go that way) all saves should be taken against "to hit Rolls" not "to wound rolls"

But if cover were say -1 to BS, every model would derive the same benefit (a 16% increase in survivabiliy) rather than the way it is now where against an AP 5 shot the marine gains nothing and the Ork gains 33%.

So simple

Cover = -1 BS
Heavy Cover (Ruins) = -2 BS
Go to Ground(decided before you get shot)= additional -1 BS Could make this -2 for something like the defense line)

Obviously to a minimum of 1.

Which at some point makes it less effective against ork shooting (as they are effected the same by all cover.), but presents a greater benefit to higher BS models as well. My vindicare may not really care that you are in cover at all, and still pick you out.


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Also this still would have no effect on Templates, and would have less of an effect on blasts (none at all on indirect fire.)

Breng77 wrote:
This is one of the reasons cover would be better represented by a to hit modifier than a save. Less rolling, and more equal benefit from cover. After all if makes little sense for a "hit" or "wound" to be negated by cover.

Logically (if you want to go that way) all saves should be taken against "to hit Rolls" not "to wound rolls"

But if cover were say -1 to BS, every model would derive the same benefit (a 16% increase in survivabiliy) rather than the way it is now where against an AP 5 shot the marine gains nothing and the Ork gains 33%.

So simple

Cover = -1 BS
Heavy Cover (Ruins) = -2 BS
Go to Ground(decided before you get shot)= additional -1 BS Could make this -2 for something like the defense line)

Obviously to a minimum of 1.

Which at some point makes it less effective against ork shooting (as they are effected the same by all cover.), but presents a greater benefit to higher BS models as well. My vindicare may not really care that you are in cover at all, and still pick you out.


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Also this still would have no effect on Templates, and would have less of an effect on blasts (none at all on indirect fire.)

Old school rogue trader styleeeeee!

Ok so where is the logic behind my Marine Master not being able to hide behind his tree, whilst using his power armour and iron halo, its not like if he gets shot by a bolter he turns his iron halo off of if he gets hit by a lascannon he jumps out of the tree? I really think multiple saves is something we need!

This is one of the reasons cover would be better represented by a to hit modifier than a save. Less rolling, and more equal benefit from cover. After all if makes little sense for a "hit" or "wound" to be negated by cover.

Second edition allowed you to take every save you had until you either took the wound or saved the shot. As already mentioned, it slowed the game down considerably (imagine a character with three different saves taking 10-20 wounds in a turn and re-rolling each save up to three times). The other thing it did was make characters that much more powerful. The last thing the current game needs is a return of hero-hammer imo.

Second ed also had save modifiers. It not only used them for cover but also for weapons. For example, instead of an AP value a weapon would be listed as a "-3" save modifier for example. Compounding multiple modifiers (my character is in cover, and has a relic that adds +1 to his save, but your weapon has a -2 modifier) tended to add complexity and tedium that I'm also not sure I would like in the current game.

Cover never modified saves in 2e, it only modified To Hit rolls. :p

GW made a concious decision to move away from modifiers in 3rd, however, because they felt that the addition of too much arithmetic mid-game slowed the game down and made it less accessible.

Breng77 wrote:
This is one of the reasons cover would be better represented by a to hit modifier than a save.

Then you have to reduce toughness in some other way to compensate and avoid having heavy infantry become unkillable in cover. For example, if you want marines shooting at your terminators at BS 2 because they're in a ruin they might have to lose their invulnerable save and have their armor reduced to 4+ (5+ for standard marines).

Or you know just stay away from them in the ruin, or bring something that could you know assault them because gasp shooting would not be super effective....You act like no matter what units in cover should gain no additional durability. IF you want your terminators to hang out in a ruin all day so I cannot kill them...then I'll largely ignore them. Or you know maybe use mobility to get on the other side of the wall so you can actually see them. Not saying all the kinks are worked out, and it would obviously need play testing, but it is no less balanced than you know 30 orks getting 4+ saves in that ruin now, while the Terninators get largely nothing (infact if they are TH/SS they get nothing at all.)

I also find it laughable that it would slow the game down more than rolling all the extra dice we are now for cover saves, we already have plenty of modifiers (Snap fire, Enfeeble, Furious Charge etc.) I really don't think it would take much for people to be like, oh yeah I hit on 4s now instead of 3s. I do agree though on not having multiple modifiers though.

No. Go play fantasy if you want your saves to stack.