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Fast question, when zombies charge a unit do they have 3 attacks? 1 base + 1 CCW/Pistol + charge?
I was being told the description says they have a single close combat weapon and pistols are just clubs so I didn't get an extra attack, I argued that well I'm still using 2 things in CC than.

Edit: <--700 post

I don't have the Codex to hand, but check their wargear. If they are listed as having a pistol AND a close combat weapon, then yes, they get the extra attack (I believe this is the case).

They do, I was trying to point out that just because they are zombies doesn't mean they stop fighting in CC with the pistol.

According to the codex:

"They are armed with a single close combat weapon, any guns are used strictly for clubbing."

So I don't see any reason they'd get a pistol, as they only are equipped with one CCW.

Doesn't every other assault marine have a single ccw and a pistol used for clubbing in CC?

Zombies aren't assault marines. They give up all weapons for a single CCW when they become zombies.

1 attack base, 2 on the charge.

I'm not seeing anywhere in the book where I trade in my cultists starting wargear to become a zombie. I can't take any options and can't shoot my pistol. So having a single close combat weapon, and a "gun" only used for "clubbing" as the book flavorfully describes doesn't change the fact I have a ccw and a pistol when fighting in CC.

Zombies are armed with a single Ccw. Not a Ccw and pistol.

I see pistol in cultist wargear.

Look at the Typhus page under Plague Zombies.

 curran12 wrote:
Look at the Typhus page under Plague Zombies.

Exactly this.

"They are armed with a single close combat weapon" says it all.

Just got a chance to check the book, and I think the intention is that they don't get the extra Attack. *HOWEVER* the RAW of it isn't exactly clear enough. There are two positions to take, going from Typhus' page:

1) "armed with" overwrites base wargear. This means they only have the close combat weapon but lose improvised armour as well. Not that this makes any difference since the 6+ save is already in the profile.
2) "armed with" doesn't overwrite base wargear as it's merely a fluffy description clarifying further that they can't take any extra options.

Neither option makes complete sense, both are flawed.

 Super Ready wrote:
Just got a chance to check the book, and I think the intention is that they don't get the extra Attack. *HOWEVER* the RAW of it isn't exactly clear enough. There are two positions to take, going from Typhus' page:

1) "armed with" overwrites base wargear. This means they only have the close combat weapon but lose improvised armour as well. Not that this makes any difference since the 6+ save is already in the profile.
2) "armed with" doesn't overwrite base wargear as it's merely a fluffy description clarifying further that they can't take any extra options.

Neither option makes complete sense, both are flawed.

It's a fluffy descritpion, it tells you that zombies "ARE" cultists, also goes as far as to refer to the page to see what a cultist is. It NEVER removes any of the wargear. The profile for cultists tells us they have a single close combat weapon and a auto pistol. The fluffy description also says that any guns are ment for clubbing. I don't see how this is any different than all the other units in the game armed with a single close combat weapon and any maner of pistol.

 Goat wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
Just got a chance to check the book, and I think the intention is that they don't get the extra Attack. *HOWEVER* the RAW of it isn't exactly clear enough. There are two positions to take, going from Typhus' page:

1) "armed with" overwrites base wargear. This means they only have the close combat weapon but lose improvised armour as well. Not that this makes any difference since the 6+ save is already in the profile.
2) "armed with" doesn't overwrite base wargear as it's merely a fluffy description clarifying further that they can't take any extra options.

Neither option makes complete sense, both are flawed.

It's a fluffy descritpion, it tells you that zombies "ARE" cultists, also goes as far as to refer to the page to see what a cultist is. It NEVER removes any of the wargear. The profile for cultists tells us they have a single close combat weapon and a auto pistol. The fluffy description also says that any guns are ment for clubbing. I don't see how this is any different than all the other units in the game armed with a single close combat weapon and any maner of pistol.

Well lets see..

If you cannot use a pistol as a pistol, does it still count as a ccw?

Pretty much no, it's not mentioned as becoming another ccw, thus, one ccw, one attack. two on the charge.

Zombies over right cultist . Because you start the game with the zombies. You count them as an entire different unit to that of cultists, only using the base cultist profile. And adding a few special rules.

A single close combat weapon. It only mentions the guns as if you use cultist models with guns. It's a bit of fluff to tell you that the gun in there hand is there close combat weapon. You don't get two attacks for two close combat weapons. As it says a single close combat weapon.

cerbrus2 wrote:
Zombies over right cultist . Because you start the game with the zombies. You count them as an entire different unit to that of cultists, only using the base cultist profile. And adding a few special rules.

A single close combat weapon. It only mentions the guns as if you use cultist models with guns. It's a bit of fluff to tell you that the gun in there hand is there close combat weapon. You don't get two attacks for two close combat weapons. As it says a single close combat weapon.

The bolded part is actually 100% false. It tells you plague zombies "are" cultists. Not something new. It says it right in the description for plague zombies on Typhus' page.

It doesn't mention anything about what model is used.

The wargear is never changed.

The zombie description says a single close combat weapon and guns are used for clubbing.

Again, look at the cultists entry. We followed all the rules for Plague Zombies. They are cultists. Wargear isn't changed. They have a single close combat weapon and a pistol. Pistol can't be fired.

 Goat wrote:

cerbrus2 wrote:
Zombies over right cultist . Because you start the game with the zombies. You count them as an entire different unit to that of cultists, only using the base cultist profile. And adding a few special rules.

A single close combat weapon. It only mentions the guns as if you use cultist models with guns. It's a bit of fluff to tell you that the gun in there hand is there close combat weapon. You don't get two attacks for two close combat weapons. As it says a single close combat weapon.

The bolded part is actually 100% false. It tells you plague zombies "are" cultists. Not something new. It says it right in the description for plague zombies on Typhus' page.

It doesn't mention anything about what model is used.

The wargear is never changed.

The zombie description says a single close combat weapon and guns are used for clubbing.

Again, look at the cultists entry. We followed all the rules for Plague Zombies. They are cultists. Wargear isn't changed. They have a single close combat weapon and a pistol. Pistol can't be fired.

Well you have it all figured out and are totaly right, As you have argued with everyone who has said other wise. So Why bother posting the thread in the first place. If you where just going Rule Lawyer everything anyway?

The whole -any guns are used strictley for the purpose of clubbing their victims to death is just fluff. hence why it is seperated from the rest of the rules with a "-".

its clear for most people.

Of course the Plague Zombie entry is there to modify the Cultist entry. Zombie cultists lose their autopistol and are instead armed only with a single close combat weapon (You are not "armed" with armor - being armed refers to weapons). If you don't think the weapons specifications in the Plague Zombie entry override the Cultist weapons entry, what makes you think the Special Rules specifications do? Fearless, Feel No Pain and Slow and Purposeful are just fluffy descriptions too? The Cultists entry only mentions Champion of Chaos, after all, and only for the Champion at that. Or how exactly do you think those two situations differ?

 Goat wrote:
The wargear is never changed

Yes it is.
The rule states "They are armed with a single close combat weapon". No more, no less.
It does not say they are "additionally armed..." or "in addition they are armed..." or even "as well as normal wargear, they are armed..."
The rule tells you exactly what they are armed with. And a pistol isn't listed.
RAW terms they have no pistol, for clubbing or otherwise.

So assault marines have 1 attack than since they also only have a single close combat weapon. Their entries do not state they have 2 CCWs. And again no, the PZ rule says they are cultists. And it never takes away any of the wargear, you just can't shoot the pistol. Correct, they are armed with a single ccw. But they never lose the pistol.

Except the "are armed with.." is, by7 definition, an exhaustive list. You are claiming they ARE armed with a pistol. Does a pistol appear on the list? No?

Assault marines are armed with a BP and Chainsword, both of which have the "melee" profile and so are CCW. You are way off target there

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except the "are armed with.." is, by7 definition, an exhaustive list.

Ok, I see what you're saying. Thanks. So they don't have a save either, they don't have any armor in the new description. Not that a 6+ is much of a save. Thanks all for the fun debate.

No, however nothing the description alters their statline, which gives them a save

Thanks for the concession.

Zombies are stated to be armed with a single CCW. As it does not say that this is the gun they are using in addtion to the base CCW they start with but also does not remove the gun they start with its not 100% but its wasiest to stick with the basics of what we are told.

That being that they have a single CCW, not two. The gun they carry could be that single CCW or it could be holstered, either way they are not shooting with it or using its profile. Reading more into it than that is delving into a grey area that has less support than just using them with a single CCW and thats it. Yes they still follow the basic Cultist rules and have the basic Cultist war gear. But when it comes to weapons, they have a single CCW, even if they have a gun...its not being used as a gun or with its profile.

 Goat wrote:
So assault marines have 1 attack than since they also only have a single close combat weapon. Their entries do not state they have 2 CCWs.

They do have a CCW and a pistol, and no rule removing the functionality of the pistol. So you're incorrect.

 Goat wrote:
Ok, I see what you're saying. Thanks. So they don't have a save either, they don't have any armor in the new description. Not that a 6+ is much of a save. Thanks all for the fun debate.

As I already pointed out, models are not "armed" with armor. "Armed" refers to weapons. They keep their 6+ save because we are not told otherwise in the Plague Zombies entry.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Goat wrote:
The wargear is never changed

Yes it is.
The rule states "They are armed with a single close combat weapon". No more, no less.
It does not say they are "additionally armed..." or "in addition they are armed..." or even "as well as normal wargear, they are armed..."
The rule tells you exactly what they are armed with. And a pistol isn't listed.
RAW terms they have no pistol, for clubbing or otherwise.

This. What would be the point of saying “they are armed with a single close combat weapon”, if it WASN’T removing the pistol? Cultists come by default with a CCW and pistol. So either that statement is meaningless, or it means the single CCW is ALL that they’re armed with. (It’s the latter). If they just meant to say they can’t fire their pistols, only using them as a second CCW, they wouldn’t have written that they’re armed with a “single” close combat weapon; as that would have been giving them two CCWs.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, however nothing the description alters their statline, which gives them a save

Thanks for the concession.

Sorry to hijack the thread but I don't see where you get this from. The armour gives the save put into the statline otherwise why have armour in the wargear section? so if you remove the armour surely you remove the armour save too? space marines don't have a natural armour save of a 3+, it is granted by their power armour so if by some hypothetical mechanic it is removed, so is the save.

Irrleevant in this case, as armed with is not equal to armoured with.

Furthering what others have said, imo, the part about pistols only being used for clubbing is implying that the pistol they can't shoot IS their ccw.