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Tycho wrote:
I've never seen anything kill a Maulerfiend turn 1. That seems like a little bit of hyperbole. It's certainly possible I suppose, but not the auto-kill you're making it seem like. Also, no. it does not move at infantry speed. It is much faster with a 12" move. Bjorn is not really an apt comparison in that regard imo. The Mfiend also has very high strength AND armorbane. Like I said, it is not very good if you're just taking it as an add on by itself, but if you take two and are willing to build a list around them, they suddenly get very nasty. That's actually one of the hallmarks of this book. There's a lot of units that on their own don't really do much, but if you're willing to commit resources to building a list around those units they suddenly become pretty tough.

I forgot that Siege Crawler lets them move 12". That puts them in Beast/Cavalry territory for sure. You would need to take 2 at least though.

Bjorn is a very good comparison for how tough a Maulerfiend is actually. Technically, he's tougher. AV13 with a 5++ vs AV12 with a 5++. Bjorn even is WS 5 instead of WS 3 so he's harder to hit in close combat for many units.

Bjorn is more vulnerable to shooting though, because he doesn't have a 12" move and there's more opportunity to shoot him.

BTW, 5 Long Fangs w/ ML with Prescience against a Maulerfiend are getting 0.99 Penetrating Hits and 0.49 Glancing Hits when you take the 5++ into account. 99% chance for the unit to Penetrate? That's a little scary. 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons (HWT or IG Blob with Bring It Down!) gets 0.75 Penetrating Hits and 0.25 Glancing Hits. 75% chance to Pen with +1 to the damage result?

If you haven't seen one pop on turn 1 its because the guy facing them ignored them or otherwise didn't actually try to bring them down. It's just luck if the thing doesn't die.

cowmonaut wrote:

Tycho wrote:
I've never seen anything kill a Maulerfiend turn 1. That seems like a little bit of hyperbole. It's certainly possible I suppose, but not the auto-kill you're making it seem like. Also, no. it does not move at infantry speed. It is much faster with a 12" move. Bjorn is not really an apt comparison in that regard imo. The Mfiend also has very high strength AND armorbane. Like I said, it is not very good if you're just taking it as an add on by itself, but if you take two and are willing to build a list around them, they suddenly get very nasty. That's actually one of the hallmarks of this book. There's a lot of units that on their own don't really do much, but if you're willing to commit resources to building a list around those units they suddenly become pretty tough.

I forgot that Siege Crawler lets them move 12". That puts them in Beast/Cavalry territory for sure. You would need to take 2 at least though.

Bjorn is a very good comparison for how tough a Maulerfiend is actually. Technically, he's tougher. AV13 with a 5++ vs AV12 with a 5++. Bjorn even is WS 5 instead of WS 3 so he's harder to hit in close combat for many units.

Bjorn is more vulnerable to shooting though, because he doesn't have a 12" move and there's more opportunity to shoot him.

BTW, 5 Long Fangs w/ ML with Prescience against a Maulerfiend are getting 0.99 Penetrating Hits and 0.49 Glancing Hits when you take the 5++ into account. 99% chance for the unit to Penetrate? That's a little scary. 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons (HWT or IG Blob with Bring It Down!) gets 0.75 Penetrating Hits and 0.25 Glancing Hits. 75% chance to Pen with +1 to the damage result?

If you haven't seen one pop on turn 1 its because the guy facing them ignored them or otherwise didn't actually try to bring them down. It's just luck if the thing doesn't die.

I'd like to see bjorn against a maulerfiend, pretty cool fight in my head.

I'd like to see bjorn against a maulerfiend, pretty cool fight in my head.

Agreed. Very cool.

EDIT:

Firstly, does anyone actually run MEq foot hordes?

Secondly, as mentioned, do you need helldrakes for this? I feel like the whole codex is more or less designed to kill space marines. I don't know why you'd need a special kind of unit just to handle what your army was already good at.

To your first question - YES. DA tactical spam with the Dakka banner is getting stupid popular and a lot of people in my area are even running Vanilla marines in foot hordes. We don't have as many CSM players as we did last edition but they also tend to bring MEQ foot hordes. That of course is just my meta though. Naturally YMMV.

To your second question -
There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in our codex that will stomp MEQ or weaker as quickly or efficiently as the 'Drake. I was skeptical too until I finally broke down and tried it.

And likely to go to the Maulerfiend or be a double KO (both are Initiative 3) Them Magma Cutters!

 Ailaros wrote:
I know that the Chaos codex isn't all that new anymore, but having finally gotten around to reading it, it's new to me. I haven't exactly had my finger on the pulse of CSM players in the tactics forum, so I'll have to apologize if the answers to some of these are painfully obvious, and I've just missed them.

- None of the CSM players I've seen around the FLGS scene have ever played a maulerfiend. Why is that? With beast, MTC, and fleet, it seems pretty certain to arrange a turn 2 charge (or turn 1, if your opponent moves stuff towards you), a charge that gets 4 S10 Ap2 hits with a pretty decent chance of a free meltagun hit on the charge, with the chance of two. And the damage can be made even worse with the demonforge. Given that it's an Av12 vehicle with a 5++, combined with its speed, makes it seem rather likely to get where it's going.

AV12 5++ makes it hilariously easy to kill in 6E, and with that speed it's going to be a huge target. It's also only WS3 I3 so against any MC of even roughly similar cost it's borked and a cheaper Dreadnought gets to take its multiple S10 attacks first.

- Are people still fawning over themselves about obliterators? I know they got cheaper, but so did their competitors. For the price of a pair of them, I could now get a 4-lascannon havoc squad or a lascannon predator, both of which look like they'd do more damage sooner. Also, they can no longer scatterless deepstrike, right?

I'm with you here, Oblits don't seem nearly as good as in previous editions.

- Both raptors and bikes feel like they've gotten cheaper. Also, it looks like rather the whole point of them is to take advantage of the lower-model-count special weapons slots. Is there much of a point to larger squads now, or are they mostly cheap, disposable meltagun suicide units?

Neither unit, despite being notably cheaper, has much a huge metagame appearance, and generally tend to still be very MSU oriented.

- Is there much point to cult troops anymore? I recall that it was already slightly iffy to take berzerkers over marked CSM, for example, but it seems even iffier now. Why pay 19 points for a berzerker when I could spend 15 on a marked CSM with nearly the same abilities? Likewise, FNP is neat, but the price hike from nurgle CSM to plague marines seems horrendously steep.

Berzerkers got nerfed for no discernable reason other than to just hamfist 6E USR's in there to say "we updated it for 6th". They're not spectacular. Plague Marines remain excellent, FNP, true T5, poisoned weapons, fearless and double-specials at minimum size make them very solid. Thousand Sons remain as hilariously overcosted as ever. Noise Marines are better now and output notably more firepower, though no longer have the CCW.

- That said, is it even worth it to bother marking? I liked the idea of splashing a diety on troops in large squads, but now that you have to pay per-model, it doesn't seem quite so worth it anymore. I guess it's cheaper for small squads than they used to be, but it seems like the point of having a codex filled with a cheaper, crappier unit of a certain other codex's stuff would be so that you could spam them harder.

Depends on the unit really. Mark costs change with each unit mostly. Marked cultists will almost never really be worth it, you're better off just buying more. Marked marines can sometimes be worth it if you need a lynchpin unit. Marked terminators can be very worth it depending. Oblits are almost always given MoN to protect them from Instant Death.

- Chaos terminators were one of my favorite units from the old codex, and I practically cried when I saw the new ones. 182 points for FIVE combi-weapons on terminator mounts? My first reaction was "why don't all CSM lists start with their first 1100 points with 30 terminators?"

Aside from CC weapon upgrades, they actually got *more* expensive with lower base leadership and highly exaggerated wargear costs for the Champion.

I mean, seriously, a squad of 10 costs just about as much as 10 combi-weapon sternguard in a drop pod. But they're TERMINATORS. Seriously, what am I missing here?

No reliable/safe DS method anymore, more expensive than they were previously.

The thing that's really striking to me is to compare them to things like warp talons or chosen or posessed. Drop a couple of points per model more, and you get the whole world of extra goodness.

Both of these units are largely considered duds.

- I could take or leave the old CSM special characters. While the new lord is SO cheap that it feels like a shame not to include one, it looks like you're really getting what you pay for in special rules nowadays. In particular Huron's free outflanking everything and lucious' genuinely neat abilities seem like I'd be much more likely to want to actually take one. Or is the fact that the new lords are so cheap still what makes them the thing to take?

Lords actually aren't much cheaper once you actually kit them back out, they just removed the invul as a base ability for the most part. Lucius actually isn't as cool as he seems to be once you start working the math out. Abaddon is actually very routinely making appearances now however.

- A chaos player at my FLGS said that it's pretty much mandatory to take veterans of the long war, but I don't see why this is. It seems like for small squads, you wouldn't really miss the -1 Ld (tending to get destroyed, rather than run off), and with larger squads, you'd be spending so many points, that you might as well just take a dark apostle at a relative discount. Am I missing something with this?

For basic squads its super cheap and gives you a nifty bonus against Space Marines. For smaller squads it may or may not be worth it depending on their role (if they're something an enemy may just knock off one of and force and Ld test on and move on as opposed to making a concerted effort to destroy for example). Larger squads you may not have HQ slots left for babysitting for.

- I know warpsmiths are rather disapproved of, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why. They cost the same as a lord with terminator armor, but come with a lot of neat kit, including extra attacks, free guns, and general support abilities like screwing with terrain and buffing vehicles. That you can take artifacts makes me think that they can stay on par with the lord even when you're willing to throw around more points on HQ choices.

He costs as much as a kitted khornate lord with lower WS/Init/Wounds and no invul, and in exchange he gets BS5 for his meltagun and must be in base contact with vehicles he wants to fix.

Essentially he's got a large number of mutually exclusive abilities that have near zero synergy and is costed as though he can use them all simultaneously to synergistic effect, and most of those abilities really aren't that great. You're paying a ton of points for a dude that ultimately just wants to hit stuff with an axe, and you'll get far better mileage out of a Lord for that.

cowmonaut wrote:BTW, 5 Long Fangs w/ ML with Prescience against a Maulerfiend are getting 0.99 Penetrating Hits and 0.49 Glancing Hits when you take the 5++ into account. That's a little scary.

Actually, I don't find that scary at all. The long fangs have a 1 in 3 chance of stopping the maulerfiend before he rushes in and eats them for breakfast. And then eats anything nearby. Any glancing hits have the chance to be pitched by it will not die.

If that's the best that the arguably best anti-maulerfiend unit in the game is capable of, I'd think you'd be all right.

Tycho wrote:There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in our codex that will stomp MEQ or weaker as quickly or efficiently as the 'Drake.

So?

Do you really need help killing off space marines? I mean, the whole rest of the codex pretty much seems to be devoted to this. Giving a CSM player a bale flamer seems like giving a guard player more lasguns.

Vaktathi wrote:AV12 5++ makes it hilariously easy to kill in 6E

Don't worry, eventually you'll get over your "hull points make vehicles worthless" emo phase.

In the meantime, if I can make hellhounds work, which are an even higher priority threat, and don't even get the benefit of an invul save or it will not die (or close combat, for that matter), then it's certainly possible to make maulerfiends work.

Vaktathi wrote:Plague Marines remain excellent, FNP, true T5, poisoned weapons, fearless and double-specials at minimum size make them very solid. Thousand Sons remain as hilariously overcosted as ever. Noise Marines are better now and output notably more firepower, though no longer have the CCW.

But once again, they have less durability and firepower compared to their points in regular CSM.

Vaktathi wrote:Essentially he's got a large number of mutually exclusive abilities that have near zero synergy and is costed as though he can use them all simultaneously to synergistic effect, and most of those abilities really aren't that great.

I still don't get it. Yes, a defiler is an example of overcosted schizophrenia, but the warpsmith just looks versatile.

I mean, let's keep it abstract for a moment. Start with a lord with a mark of khorne and an axe of blind fury in terminator armor with a combi-melta. Now, let's say that I offered you an upgrade to that lord wherein he lost a wound and was hit on 4's, but he gained +1 A, a meltagun and a flamer (which can be shot in addition to the combi-melta), and offers the army-wide buff of reducing the cover saves for anybody shooting at that one unit camping on their home objective. Then just for luls, he can also cause vehicles nearby to suffer gets hot and even has a half chance of fixing a hull point on stuff while he's at it.

And then I tell you that this all costs only 20 points. 20 points for him to be nearly as good in his primary role (close combat), while also being good at shooting, and synergizing well with the rest of the army thanks to buffs and debuffs.

Yes, you've got to put him in a rhino or a land raider or in a huron infiltrating squad to get him closer, while the juggernought is certainly easier for the lord, but it's far from impossible. Moreover, it's less necessary, because if he can't get into close combat, he can still shoot stuff, and he's also helped the rest of the army just by being deployed thanks to shatter cover.

If anything, it looks like the opposite should be true. Take a warpsmith, and throw away shooting and buffing so that he can get into close combat a little faster. Doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me.

I love Maulerfiends. They're not a plug and play type of unit, you really need to build your list around them. Here's an 1850 list that I used which had the Maulerfiends function quite effectively:



I noticed with this list that you don't really need shooting since the list is just so damn fast. It can essentially cross the no man's land in a single turn since everything in the list (minus the reserved Cultists of course) can move 18" in one go. I also designed the list to have each unit perform multiple roles, and I play with the mentality that the Maulerfiends are there to die and draw fire away from everything else. It really does suck if they die too early though.

As to the Plague Marines vs 10x CSM debate, I think fearless is huge. There is a certain comfort knowing that the enemy needs to kill them to a MAN before they stop claiming that objective. With regular CSM, especially ones without Veteran of the Long War, once that champion goes down, you are looking at leadership 8 checks, and when you get below 25% looking at insane heroism to regroup... Plague Marines are just more consistant. They give you piece of mind. No matter what the opponent needs to churn through 5 Plague Marines in cover to get you off that objective, and no flubbed leadership check is going to stop that.

The toughness 5 and FnP also means a Heldrake cannot reliably kill them all in one Vector Strike + Baleflamer Pass, which is a HUGE advantage in a csm vs csm fight.

Biggest bonus of CSMs is the extra bolters. If you keep them out of assault, you lessen the biggest risks of not being fearless.

As for Maulerfiends, I like how well they pair with spawn support.

Ailaros wrote:
Don't worry, eventually you'll get over your "hull points make vehicles worthless" emo phase.
In the meantime, if I can make hellhounds work, which are an even higher priority threat, and don't even get the benefit of an invul save or it will not die (or close combat, for that matter), then it's certainly possible to make maulerfiends work.

You said you wanted feedback on why people don't use them. I just gave it to you. If you don't like it fine but don't just turn around and insult me. If you're looking for a soapbox to stand on and say "you guys are all over-reacting this stuff is fine", then don't try and masquerade like this is a discussion.

There are reasons you don't see AV12 walkers in most armies, and why medium armor in general is becoming rarer and rarer amongst competitive army lists, they simply die too damn fast. If you take a look at the army list forum you'll find relatively few armies fielding such units, especially relative to a year ago. On top of that, the Maulerfiend has real issues with WS/Init relative to other walkers and similarly costed MC's. In using and opposing them, I've yet to have one make it into combat and survive to do anything useful. It either gets shot down before it gets there or struck down before it has a chance to hit, or its low number of attacks and low WS mean it may kill a couple putzes and that's it before it dies.

But once again, they have less durability and firepower compared to their points in regular CSM.

Depends on what's being thrown at them, but at a localized point on the table Plague Marines can be made to be a hell of a pain to root out. Between their resiliency, CC ability and double-specials, they are very flexible in a good way. Their poisoned blades mean they wound MEQ's 75% of the time and make charges against them very nasty between that and blight grenades, etc. I generally wouldn't advocate an entire army of them, but having one good "anvil" unit can really make a difference.

I still don't get it. Yes, a defiler is an example of overcosted schizophrenia, but the warpsmith just looks versatile.

Except you're never going to really use those other abilities, or if you do it'll simply be incidental, and for what he's best at, chopping things, he's too expensive. He's not worth it for the BS5 melta, if he's using his abilities on vehicles he's not really doing much else for 100something points and you're unlikely to get that much value back, he's too expensive and valuable to just sit there repairing stuff, and both usually become irrelevant when using him for the only thing he's really good for, which is choppychoppy, and a Lord will do it better for the same points.

I mean, let's keep it abstract for a moment. Start with a lord with a mark of khorne and an axe of blind fury in terminator armor with a combi-melta. Now, let's say that I offered you an upgrade to that lord wherein he lost a wound and was hit on 4's, but he gained +1 A, a meltagun and a flamer (which can be shot in addition to the combi-melta), and offers the army-wide buff of reducing the cover saves for anybody shooting at that one unit camping on their home objective. Then just for luls, he can also cause vehicles nearby to suffer gets hot and even has a half chance of fixing a hull point on stuff while he's at it.

I would ask why I'm bothering to make my super killy lord less killy to do things I don't need him to do and in many cases will keep him from doing what I originally brought him to do. You're also making a whole lot of that cover save reducing ability. It's nice, but calling it an "army wide buff against a home objective" while technically possibly true, is very much overstating it. You're reducing the cover save of one non-purchased terrain piece in the enemy deployment zone by 1. That doesn't mean there's an objective there, it's not really an "army wide buff" , and depending on table setup and the style of the opposing army may or may not mean much. I'm not saying it's not useful, but it's not the magical wondertool it's being made out to be here.

And then I tell you that this all costs only 20 points. 20 points for him to be nearly as good in his primary role (close combat), while also being good at shooting, and synergizing well with the rest of the army thanks to buffs and debuffs.

Except you really wouldn't ever bother to pay for those abilities, you're making him worse at his primary role and the other abilities are either very situational or completely irrelevant. The "gets hot" thing won't really be an issue for most vehicles unless they've got lots of multishot weapons and are relatively close, the repair ability is minimally useful (there's a reason you don't see Techmarines or Techpriests generally in most armies either). There's a reason he's not very popular.

Yes, you've got to put him in a rhino or a land raider or in a huron infiltrating squad to get him closer, while the juggernought is certainly easier for the lord, but it's far from impossible. Moreover, it's less necessary, because if he can't get into close combat, he can still shoot stuff, and he's also helped the rest of the army just by being deployed thanks to shatter cover.

He's not a particularly great shooting investment for 115pts naked, shatter cover is again, nice but highly situational and highly variable as to its usefulness. Aside from that, he's less survivable and less killy than the Lord.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tycho wrote: If you have one in combat with troops you've probably either made a mistake or been outplayed ...

Why would that be? I mean, he gets 4 S10 Ap2 attacks at I3, on the charge and if any of them hit, you get a free meltagun hit in close combat. In return, you're talking about something with AV12, a 5++ and it will not die. Sure, there are going to be things that can beat it in close combat, but that doesn't seem like a very long list.

It would be especially entertaining to get into close combat with paladins or most other elite units.

Martel732 wrote:Helldrakes absolutely destroy meq foot lists.

Firstly, does anyone actually run MEq foot hordes?

Secondly, as mentioned, do you need helldrakes for this? I feel like the whole codex is more or less designed to kill space marines. I don't know why you'd need a special kind of unit just to handle what your army was already good at.

Many do, but also MEQs forced out of their transports all nice and bunched up for that baleflamer to turn into some exxtra crispy BBQ. Helldrakes are best used in tandem with a long ranged transport cracker or two to deal with their TRANSPORTS...TRAAAAANSPORTSSSS!. To get at your enemies hiding in them, you need to crack open the METAL BAWKSESand then roast DA KOWARDZ! THE FEWLZ! inside now that they're all bunched up. You really need someone to take away their metal bawkses to work with the hell drake to really see it's full potential. Autocannon havocs are very popular for this task.

 Ailaros wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:BTW, 5 Long Fangs w/ ML with Prescience against a Maulerfiend are getting 0.99 Penetrating Hits and 0.49 Glancing Hits when you take the 5++ into account. That's a little scary.

Actually, I don't find that scary at all. The long fangs have a 1 in 3 chance of stopping the maulerfiend before he rushes in and eats them for breakfast. And then eats anything nearby. Any glancing hits have the chance to be pitched by it will not die.

If that's the best that the arguably best anti-maulerfiend unit in the game is capable of, I'd think you'd be all right.

Tycho wrote:There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in our codex that will stomp MEQ or weaker as quickly or efficiently as the 'Drake.

So?

Do you really need help killing off space marines? I mean, the whole rest of the codex pretty much seems to be devoted to this. Giving a CSM player a bale flamer seems like giving a guard player more lasguns.

Vaktathi wrote:AV12 5++ makes it hilariously easy to kill in 6E

Don't worry, eventually you'll get over your "hull points make vehicles worthless" emo phase.

In the meantime, if I can make hellhounds work, which are an even higher priority threat, and don't even get the benefit of an invul save or it will not die (or close combat, for that matter), then it's certainly possible to make maulerfiends work.

Vaktathi wrote:Plague Marines remain excellent, FNP, true T5, poisoned weapons, fearless and double-specials at minimum size make them very solid. Thousand Sons remain as hilariously overcosted as ever. Noise Marines are better now and output notably more firepower, though no longer have the CCW.

But once again, they have less durability and firepower compared to their points in regular CSM.

Vaktathi wrote:Essentially he's got a large number of mutually exclusive abilities that have near zero synergy and is costed as though he can use them all simultaneously to synergistic effect, and most of those abilities really aren't that great.

I still don't get it. Yes, a defiler is an example of overcosted schizophrenia, but the warpsmith just looks versatile.

I mean, let's keep it abstract for a moment. Start with a lord with a mark of khorne and an axe of blind fury in terminator armor with a combi-melta. Now, let's say that I offered you an upgrade to that lord wherein he lost a wound and was hit on 4's, but he gained +1 A, a meltagun and a flamer (which can be shot in addition to the combi-melta), and offers the army-wide buff of reducing the cover saves for anybody shooting at that one unit camping on their home objective. Then just for luls, he can also cause vehicles nearby to suffer gets hot and even has a half chance of fixing a hull point on stuff while he's at it.

And then I tell you that this all costs only 20 points. 20 points for him to be nearly as good in his primary role (close combat), while also being good at shooting, and synergizing well with the rest of the army thanks to buffs and debuffs.

Yes, you've got to put him in a rhino or a land raider or in a huron infiltrating squad to get him closer, while the juggernought is certainly easier for the lord, but it's far from impossible. Moreover, it's less necessary, because if he can't get into close combat, he can still shoot stuff, and he's also helped the rest of the army just by being deployed thanks to shatter cover.

If anything, it looks like the opposite should be true. Take a warpsmith, and throw away shooting and buffing so that he can get into close combat a little faster. Doesn't seem like much of an improvement to me.

SO it sounds like you really don't want any advice on this, so I recomend actually playing your ideas on the table and see how they work

as for Warpsmith Vs Lord you are missing several key points here if you wanted to kit the Warpsmith out for combat as you suggest With Mark of Khorne, Aura of Dark Glory and Axe of Blind Fury. He will run you 170 points

A Jugger Lord with Sigil of Corruption and the Axe Is 160.

So you pay 10 additional points for the Guns, a 2+ save and the Warpsmith abilities fixing vehicles(which you won't be doing in combat) and Breaking cover. In exchange for this you give up Fearless, -1 Initiative -2 WS , -1 T, -2 wounds, 12" movement and have a 5++ invul instead of a 4++.

What this means is a couple of things
1.) You get hit on 3s, which in challanges (which since you are chaos you often fight) hurts you, infact it hurts your durability in general.
2.) You get doubled out by S8 instead of S10.
3.) I 4 means you don't kill many units prior to them hitting you and your squad, which lowers the durability of said squad. Which hurts when you consider that you are not fearless, and can run and get swept, it also means my Lord on a Juggernaugt with his axe beats your face in before you swing.
4.) Lack of 12" move means you cannot join some of the better units in our book (bikes and Spawn) for CC. Also even if you join terminators you are very slow, and then cannot sweep units in hand to hand.
5.) Did I mention not being fearless, so you can get pinned, or break and run while you are moving toward the opponent.

As for your opinion on the Heldrake, this suggest to me you have not seen it played much. The ability to Delete squads, force your opponent to maintain 2" coherency or die, hit 2 different squads in 1 turn etc. are all good on a very durable platform.

But like I said at the start you seem to have your ideas about what is great, go use it, it may very well work the way you want. Otherwise it seems unlikely that any of us will be able to give you any advice based on what we have seen happen in real games (i.e. my maulerfiend has dies by Turn 3 in every game I have used him.)

Heldrakes don't just kill MEQ hordes, although that is the thing they're most efficient at. They're great at killing light armor, with S7 Vector Strikes, and at killing all kinds of infantry that don't have 2+ saves. Sure it's less efficient at doing that, but think about it. We can generally divide the troops for factions into either Marines or Xenos. Marines have a 3+ save and T4 generally. Xenos have weirder stuff, but often have worse saves, meaning that they often rely on cover saves to protect them. The heldrake ignores that cover save. Just as Tau are considered meta-shifting for having the ability to generally ignore cover, heldrakes also meta-shifted in a lesser way by completely ignoring cover. You don't attack Terminators with a Heldrake. You use your mobility and unmatched flyer survivability (the heldrake is one of the most survivable flyers in the game) to go after their troops choices. You flame their guys holding their home objectives, you Vector strike their transports, and then flame the guys that you just had tumble out of there all bunched up. You flame their horde units, because flamers are good against hordes. You have the capacity to go after their troops and kill them very quickly, no matter what they are, and your opponent does not have much capability to stop you.

Very few armies can keep their troops safe from a heldrake -- the Necron Wraithwing (Destroyer Lord + 18 Wraiths + 4-5 Nightscythes w/ warriors + 3 Annihilation Barges) is one of them. Nightscythes or Annihilation Barges can kill heldrakes pretty easily, and even if they're destroyed by heldrakes, the troops inside the flyers are safe and can walk on the board manually. However, most other armies do not have the capability to protect their troops from a heldrake. Even tau can only do it by actively engaging the heldrake, which is something a CSM army actually is fine with. The standard way to deal with flyers if you don't have good AA options is to ignore them; most flyers don't actually have that good firepower. The heldrake is a major exception, and if a Tau army is dedicating all of their heavy firepower to taking down your two or three heldrakes, then they're not firing at your Maulerfiends or Obliterators, or your own troops, or whatever.

Furthermore, the rest of the codex isn't actually that good at killing marines. The perception that CSM is the counter to marines largely comes from the heldrake! Sure the Burning Brand and Doom Siren can be nice substitutes, and Blastmasters as well, but the heldrake is the premier MEQ answer in the codex, that also happens to be the answer to almost every troop unit in the game, as well as CSM's best flyer answer and a good transport killer.

One more thing on the heldrake. If you find that they're not coming in when you want them to, you should really consider the ADL with Comms Relay. The Quad-gun is nice, but heldrakes are good AA in and of themselves, especially if you're running 3 of them. Comms relay ensures either that your dragons will come on early to BBQ troops all game, or to come on after the enemy flyers come on, to destroy them in turn.


On maulerfiends, you don't even really need to keep them in cover, with the 5++ Daemon save. Ruins help, but you're already getting normal cover all the time. However, I do agree that Maulerfiends should not be sent into combat with large troop swarms, unless you're deliberately doing it to tarpit a more valuable unit without Krak Grenades.

4 S10 AP2 attacks seems nice, but then you realize that, on average, only two will hit. When you're fighting 10 marines who're Krak Grenading you first and hitting on 3s, that's not a very efficient use of your Maulerfiend. This is why you don't see CC Dreadnoughts other than Furiosos with Blood Talons. Despite having High Str Low AP attacks, walkers almost always get too few to really make a difference when attacking infantry. AV12 Walkers are best against vehicles, Non TH/SS Terminators, and ICs, and at tarpitting guys without Krak Grenades. Furiosos with Blood Talons are the exception, because they do generate the number of attacks needed to deal with infantry. AV13 can tarpit guys with krak grenades, but those typically cost too much to be efficient at doing that. A contemptor has better things to do than being in combat with marines.

You want your maulerfiends taking out enemy vehicles and buildings (make the guy who brought the bastion cry. Make the guy who brought the Fortress of Redemption cry harder).


In regards to Plague Marines vs. Regular Marines. I know labmouse calculated that, iirc, a Plague marine has literally twice the survivability of a normal marine to small arms fire. Thus, five PM are as survivable against small arms fire as a ten man CSM squad, while being 20 points cheaper. You also pay no champion tax for Plague Marines, unlike most other CSM units. They can hug cover more effectively than larger marine squads, and get FnP, effective True Grit with poison weapons, and still get two plasmaguns. Yes you get less small arms firepower from them, but that's not what you're take Plague Marines for in this example. Their firepower is their two plasmaguns or meltaguns. They still die to heldrakes, but everything dies to heldrakes, and a heldrake actually needs 3+ to wound them, and they still get FnP against it, which is better than many armies can boast.

On kitting out Warpsmiths for CC. You don't often see Khorne Lords on Foot with the Axe of Blind Fury. If you did, then there's a case to be made that a Warpsmith could be a reasonable substitute. However, the burning brand is generally a better weapon for anyone on foot, as it gives you nice ranged attack power to make up for your bad mobility. You can even give the burning brand to a warpsmith, and fire two flamers a turn. The axe of blind fury currently goes on Juggernaut Lords, who have much more mobility than Warpsmiths could ever have. The Axe in itself is good, but it lacks a delivery system, like most of CSM. The juggernaut gives the axe a delivery system. Juggernaut Axe Lords get +2 WS, +1T, +2W, +1I, Fearless, a 12" move, and a better invulnerable save over a Warpsmith. That's not 'a little better in combat,' that's the difference between something that's reasonably nice in combat vs. a total combat monster that can actually get to combat. Furthermore, the Axe even makes the Warpsmith's shooting worse, as it gives him -1BS on his meltagun, which ruins much of the point of it in the first place. Another BS4 meltagun is nowhere near as valuable as a BS5 meltagun. You also lose the chance to give him the Brand for another flamer.

All of the Cult choises are worth their cost, compared to regular CSM. It all depends what you're really looking for.

Khorne:
Berzerkers: WS5, Furious Charge, Mark of Khorne, Fearless = 105pts
Khorne CSM: Mark of Khorne, replace bolter for CCW = 85pts

For the extra 20 points you get +1WS, Furious Charge and Fearless, and you get the option to take 2 plasma pistols and chain swords.
If you want a dedicated melee unit, the Berzerkers are worth their extra points.

Slaanesh:
Noise Marines: Mark of Slaanesh, Fearless = 95pts
Slaanesh CSM: Mark of Slaanesh = 85pts

For the extra 10 points you get Fearless, and an opening to some Unique, and very good, cover-ignoring weapons

Nurgle:
Plague Marines: Mark of Nurgle, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Plague Knife, Blight Grenade = 120pts
Nurgle CSM: Initiative 4, Mark of Nurgle = 90pts

For the cost of 30 points and one point of Initiative you get Fearless, Feel No Pain, poisoned melee attacks, defensive grenades, and the option to take 2 special weapons in a 5 man unit.
I wouldn't take this unit with close combat in mind, due to the drop in Initiative, but for anything else, this is one hell of a durable unit.

Tzeentch (6 man unit for easier comparison):
Thousand Sons: Ld10, 4++ save, Mark of Tzeentch, Fearless, VotLW, Inferno Bolts, ML1 Tzeentch Psyker = 150pts
Tzeentch CSM: Mark of Tzeentch, not Slow & Purposeful, VotLW, ML1 Tzeentch Psyker= 170pts

For 20 points LESS!! and having to endure Slow & Purposeful, you get Fearless, +2 to your invulnerability save, Inferno Bolts, and a sorcerer WHO doesn't take an HQ option.
If you hate Tzeentch powers and/or want your Sorcerer as an Independent Character, this unit is not for you.

All in all, in my oppinion, if you want your CSM to have a Mark, the Cult unit beat the Regulars hands Down in cost efficiency every time.

So?

Do you really need help killing off space marines? I mean, the whole rest of the codex pretty much seems to be devoted to this. Giving a CSM player a bale flamer seems like giving a guard player more lasguns.

You're right. I always forget about the fact that even my cultists come with a str6 AP3 torrent weapon that ignores cover and has soul blaze. So yeah, like I said, you're right. It's pretty much EXACTLY like handing out extra lasguns to Guardsmen ...

In all seriousness, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that this codex is just lining the gutters with dead MEQ without using the Heldrake. We certainly have some things that make us better at fighting meq (like VoTLW) but a lot of that rarely translates into killing meq. In terms of high str high AP weapons we have no more ranged threats than the Vanilla codex and I've certainly never heard anyone accuse the Vanilla marines of being super killy against other power armor armies. In terms of CC weapons we might have a few extra bits and bobs that are good at smashing MEQ but they are either one per list type of deals (Black Mace) or on things that have no reliable way to actually get into combat in the first place. So anyway, yeah, I would ask where you're getting that impression.

 Ailaros wrote:

Tycho wrote: If you have one in combat with troops you've probably either made a mistake or been outplayed ...

Why would that be? I mean, he gets 4 S10 Ap2 attacks at I3, on the charge and if any of them hit, you get a free meltagun hit in close combat. In return, you're talking about something with AV12, a 5++ and it will not die. Sure, there are going to be things that can beat it in close combat, but that doesn't seem like a very long list.

It would be especially entertaining to get into close combat with paladins or most other elite units.

Martel732 wrote:Helldrakes absolutely destroy meq foot lists.

Firstly, does anyone actually run MEq foot hordes?

Secondly, as mentioned, do you need helldrakes for this? I feel like the whole codex is more or less designed to kill space marines. I don't know why you'd need a special kind of unit just to handle what your army was already good at.

Evidently, in the competitive scene, some people would *like* to, but are prohibited by the existence of the helldrake. Obviously, its all opinion, but they went into great detail about all the meta effects the helldrake has. Feel free to check it out and agree or disagree.

I think the helldrake can kill meqs quickly and efficiently with minimal risk for your units. That's probably the big attraction. Try running lists without helldrakes, who knows? You might make another meta-viable build.

Doesn't the magma cutters on the Mauler attack an already hit model?, meaning that against single wound infantry they are useless?, unless it has an invulnerable save and survives the attacks or the mauler rolls a 1 to wound.

Also additional to the disadvantages on the warpsmith mentioned above he isn't fearless which means that there is a chance of his squad losing even by 1 wound and getting swept.

Ailaros wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:BTW, 5 Long Fangs w/ ML with Prescience against a Maulerfiend are getting 0.99 Penetrating Hits and 0.49 Glancing Hits when you take the 5++ into account. That's a little scary.

Actually, I don't find that scary at all. The long fangs have a 1 in 3 chance of stopping the maulerfiend before he rushes in and eats them for breakfast. And then eats anything nearby. Any glancing hits have the chance to be pitched by it will not die.

If that's the best that the arguably best anti-maulerfiend unit in the game is capable of, I'd think you'd be all right.

Right, but that's just one unit. You're likely to see 2-3 units of Long Fangs, and possibly other anti-tank options. For the Long Fangs they are easily stripping 1-2 Hull Points and the thing only has 3. As others have said, you'd have to build a list around the Maulerfiends to make it worthwhile.

Ailaros wrote:

Tycho wrote:There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in our codex that will stomp MEQ or weaker as quickly or efficiently as the 'Drake.

So?

Do you really need help killing off space marines? I mean, the whole rest of the codex pretty much seems to be devoted to this. Giving a CSM player a bale flamer seems like giving a guard player more lasguns.

Except Lasguns are called Flashlights for a reason, whereas S6 AP3 Flamers really devastate anything other than TEQ. Also, you might want to read through the Codex again. There isn't actually a whole lot else that deals with MEQ well, as Bolters aren't an anti-MEQ weapon.

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Plague Marines remain excellent, FNP, true T5, poisoned weapons, fearless and double-specials at minimum size make them very solid. Thousand Sons remain as hilariously overcosted as ever. Noise Marines are better now and output notably more firepower, though no longer have the CCW.

But once again, they have less durability and firepower compared to their points in regular CSM.

Which ones? For Plague Marines and Noise Marines you'd be wrong.

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Essentially he's got a large number of mutually exclusive abilities that have near zero synergy and is costed as though he can use them all simultaneously to synergistic effect, and most of those abilities really aren't that great.

I still don't get it. Yes, a defiler is an example of overcosted schizophrenia, but the warpsmith just looks versatile.

I mean, let's keep it abstract for a moment. Start with a lord with a mark of khorne and an axe of blind fury in terminator armor with a combi-melta. Now, let's say that I offered you an upgrade to that lord wherein he lost a wound and was hit on 4's, but he gained +1 A, a meltagun and a flamer (which can be shot in addition to the combi-melta), and offers the army-wide buff of reducing the cover saves for anybody shooting at that one unit camping on their home objective. Then just for luls, he can also cause vehicles nearby to suffer gets hot and even has a half chance of fixing a hull point on stuff while he's at it.

And then I tell you that this all costs only 20 points. 20 points for him to be nearly as good in his primary role (close combat), while also being good at shooting, and synergizing well with the rest of the army thanks to buffs and debuffs.

Your assessment is faulty here IMO. Here's why:

1. The Warpsmith kitted out as you listed would be 180 points. The Chaos Lord kitted out as you listed would be 157 points.
2. The Warpsmith would be WS 3, BS 4, W 2, I 4, and have 4 attacks base, 6 on the Charge. The Chaos Lord would be WS 5, BS 4, W 3, I 5 and have 3 Attacks base, 5 on the Charge.
3. The Chaos Lord would make Khorne Beserkers scoring.
4. The Warpsmith can't use Shatter Defense against Fortifications and chances are its going to be an ADL that is on the home objective. This ability isn't as useful as you think.
5. The Warpsmith can't shoot his Meltagun and would be unable to charge an enemy unit if he used his Master of Mechanisms to Curse a vehicle. Also, Get's Hot is just a 17% chance per dice of occurring.

And that's before we get into arguing that you are ignoring the extra mobility a Chaos Lord can have and all the other options available (such as being T 6 and thus ignoring Instant Death). But really, your premise is flawed. WS 3 on your "combat oriented" HQ is a bad joke. Hell, WS 4 would be bad still. Looking just at the base attacks:

Chaos Lord vs MEQ : 2.00 hits base, 3.33 on the Charge
Warpsmith vs MEQ : 2.00 hits base, 3.00 on the Charge

So provided no bonus attacks, a Warpsmith and Chaos Lord with the same equipment are putting out the same number of hits. The big "gotcha" here is that the Warpsmith is being hit a lot more easily (3+) than the Chaos Lord by most units. And the "dirty little secret" is that as you increase the number of attacks (thanks to that Daemon Weapon) the Warpsmith becomes less and less effective in comparison to the Chaos Lord.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, you've got to put him in a rhino or a land raider or in a huron infiltrating squad to get him closer, while the juggernought is certainly easier for the lord, but it's far from impossible. Moreover, it's less necessary, because if he can't get into close combat, he can still shoot stuff, and he's also helped the rest of the army just by being deployed thanks to shatter cover.

So other than being worse in combat than the Chaos Lord, easier to kill, and being more expensive, now there are hidden costs in getting him to be able to contribute to a fight while the Chaos Lord can do it on his own?

And the Warpsmith's "shooting" is all 12-18" range BTW, so you have to be in charge range for him to contribute to shooting anyways...

akaean wrote:As to the Plague Marines vs 10x CSM debate, I think fearless is huge. There is a certain comfort knowing that the enemy needs to kill them to a MAN before they stop claiming that objective. With regular CSM, especially ones without Veteran of the Long War, once that champion goes down, you are looking at leadership 8 checks, and when you get below 25% looking at insane heroism to regroup... Plague Marines are just more consistant. They give you piece of mind. No matter what the opponent needs to churn through 5 Plague Marines in cover to get you off that objective, and no flubbed leadership check is going to stop that.

The toughness 5 and FnP also means a Heldrake cannot reliably kill them all in one Vector Strike + Baleflamer Pass, which is a HUGE advantage in a csm vs csm fight.

All of this. Consistency is one of the biggest things when making a competitive list, which is why you see a lot of Plague Marine lists. As an IG player, Ailaros, you know how important Commissars are for adding Stubborn. Fearless is the closest CSM can get to it and they need to take it wherever they can usually. A Space Marine unit without ATSKNF is surprisingly easy to deal with, which is why CSM take larger units or Fearless.

Also, you underestimate how durable Plague Marines are:

5 Plague Marines with 2 Plasma Guns costs 150 Points, where 10 Chaos Space Marines with 2 Plasma Gun cost 170 Points. In the example given in the spoiler, the CSM have to take their Leadership test and risk falling back, but the Plague Marines will still be standing strong. The 5 Plague Marines take almost as much effort to kill as the 10 Chaos Space Marines, but are only combat ineffective if you wipe them out while the CSM can be made to retreat. And the Plague Marines are 20 points cheaper!

Thariinye wrote:Heldrakes don't just kill MEQ hordes, although that is the thing they're most efficient at. They're great at killing light armor, with S7 Vector Strikes, and at killing all kinds of infantry that don't have 2+ saves. Sure it's less efficient at doing that, but think about it. We can generally divide the troops for factions into either Marines or Xenos. Marines have a 3+ save and T4 generally. Xenos have weirder stuff, but often have worse saves, meaning that they often rely on cover saves to protect them. The heldrake ignores that cover save. Just as Tau are considered meta-shifting for having the ability to generally ignore cover, heldrakes also meta-shifted in a lesser way by completely ignoring cover.

This is what is getting overlooked I think Ailaros. The Heldrake is great at killing everything except Land Raiders and things with a 2+ save (and even then, it can put out a large volume of wounds). It can deal with almost everything your opponent will bring to the table, and it ignores cover saves. Given ADL's are so popular, being able to melt anything in one is a very important ability.

Thariinye wrote:One more thing on the heldrake. If you find that they're not coming in when you want them to, you should really consider the ADL with Comms Relay. The Quad-gun is nice, but heldrakes are good AA in and of themselves, especially if you're running 3 of them. Comms relay ensures either that your dragons will come on early to BBQ troops all game, or to come on after the enemy flyers come on, to destroy them in turn.

Excellent advice here regardless of the army you are playing, really. It's less expensive and if you already have AA from something else it can be the better investment. Often overlooked though.

Heldrakes don't just kill MEQ hordes, although that is the thing they're most efficient at. They're great at killing light armor, with S7 Vector Strikes, and at killing all kinds of infantry that don't have 2+ saves. Sure it's less efficient at doing that, but think about it. We can generally divide the troops for factions into either Marines or Xenos. Marines have a 3+ save and T4 generally. Xenos have weirder stuff, but often have worse saves, meaning that they often rely on cover saves to protect them. The heldrake ignores that cover save. Just as Tau are considered meta-shifting for having the ability to generally ignore cover, heldrakes also meta-shifted in a lesser way by completely ignoring cover.

That's the key to the heldrake. I don't really bring it to kill marines. It's good at that job, but as it's been pointed out spreading out can mitigate that factor.

What the heldrake is fantastic at doing is erasing small squads that would typically be a pain in the butt to remove. Rangers in cover. Pathfinders in cover. Harker vets in cover. All these guys get very good saves against normal fire power and they will usually be clustered together to take advantage of cover. The heldrake will ignore any cover bonus they have and erase them off the board.

Not only that, but the helrake can hit any point on the board the turn it comes in thanks to 36 inch movement plus torrent. Any mini squad sitting on a home objective in cover is reachable.

Not only do you get to flame anyone and anywhere, but you still have the vector strike at S7 AP3 ignore cover. That actually makes it very good against monstrous creatures. A pair of heldrakes coming onto the board can typically remove a flyrant in one turn. And that's just in the movement phase. Afterward they can flame stuff too.

I have never been disappointed that I brought drakes.

Since there's apparently so many of my fellow CSM players in here right now I'd like to add a question to the discussion -

Have any of you done the Abbadon + Chosen thing yet? I keep thinking it looks fun (a bunch of Rhino mounted MSU chosen with a ton of plasma zipping around with a Abbadon star in the middle), but I can't ever seem to make it work points wise. Have any of you put together a list with that combo?

Probably a whole thread in of itself, but MSU isn't that good in 6th edition. First Blood is part of it, but now that you have to get out of the vehicle to capture an objective it becomes risky having a 5 man unit that can be blown away in a single turn.

Anyways, looking at Chosen a few things jump out:

- Compared to CSM, the base unit is only 15 points more
- They come with Bolt Pistol + CCW stock
- They are 5 points a model more expensive (3 if you factor in the Bolt Pistol + CCW combo)
- Can take 4 special weapons (ranged or combat) in any sized unit
- Can take 1 (additional) special ranged weapon or heavy weapon in any sized unit
- The only price difference in options is that an Icon of Execess is 5 points more expensive
- Base Leadership of 9 vs 8
- Base Attack of 2 vs 1

For the 3 extra points per model and 15 point buy-in I actually like Chosen as a replacement for CSM. They can do all of the same things, plus have the options to do more. I do think however it'd be too easy to get into the "zomg I can take 5 Plasma Guns" trap. 75 points is a lot to spend right there... Also, 5 with MoS, Icon of Excess, and x2 Plasma Guns runs 150 points. The same price as 5 Plague Marines with x2 Plasma Guns, but lacking T5 and Fearless.

Really it seems that they should be considered similar to Wolf Guard, but lacking the TDA option. But even that isn't that accurate. Its hard to see where Chosen fit in.

Tycho wrote:
Since there's apparently so many of my fellow CSM players in here right now I'd like to add a question to the discussion -

Have any of you done the Abbadon + Chosen thing yet? I keep thinking it looks fun (a bunch of Rhino mounted MSU chosen with a ton of plasma zipping around with a Abbadon star in the middle), but I can't ever seem to make it work points wise. Have any of you put together a list with that combo?

I haven't tried, and it seems a bit too fragile to really be effective. You're combining relatively fragile transports with expensive troops. These expensive troops are at the same time, not any more survivable than a normal marine, so each failed 3+ save hurts a lot when you're losing a 20 point guy that carries a 15 point plasmagun. You get good firepower per model, but you really don't have the survivability to last against sustained shooting or horde assault. It would have probably been nice last edition, but right now I can't see it working.

If CSM had gotten a damned Chaos Drop-pod or something, then they'd be good. You'd basically have a Chaos version of Kantor + Sternguard, and you could mark your marines with Khorne or Nurgle for extra hilarity if you feel like it. You'd also get to accurately DS Abaddon into CC by turn two, which really would increase Abaddon's worth. If they hadn't lost Infiltrate either, then they might be viable. A full infiltrating army would be hilarious too.

However, as it is, Chosen are, in my opinion, too fragile for what they bring, even as troops. Abaddon is great, but unlocking chosen doesn't really make a chosen-spam army viable. One or two units may work, but a whole army doesn't, I feel.