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Frazzled wrote: Further, do you expect grandma to have to defened herself with a bow and arrow in her bedroom, in the middle of the night when startled awake?
Fraz, that's ridiculous! I expect her to be protected by Weiner Dogs!
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Frazzled wrote: Further, do you expect grandma to have to defened herself with a bow and arrow in her bedroom, in the middle of the night when startled awake?
Fraz, that's ridiculous! I expect her to be protected by Weiner Dogs!
Full auto BADGER DOGS!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 07:39:51
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
sorry that makes too much sense, and puts the burden of work on the elected officials instead of convention scapegoats. Everyone knows that more guns = more crime is an absolute indisputable fact, and that if you disagree, its only because your just a killer in waiting (gun owner)
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
sorry that makes too much sense, and puts the burden of work on the elected officials instead of convention scapegoats. Everyone knows that more guns = more crime is an absolute indisputable fact, and that if you disagree, its only because your just a killer in waiting (gun owner)
/sarcasm
I thought that when you took away peoples ability to protect their stuff with guns, only the criminals will have guns and so the crime rate goes up :confused:
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
sorry that makes too much sense, and puts the burden of work on the elected officials instead of convention scapegoats. Everyone knows that more guns = more crime is an absolute indisputable fact, and that if you disagree, its only because your just a killer in waiting (gun owner)
/sarcasm
Well there's nothing quite like misrepresenting the counter arguments eh? Noone is arguing that more guns means more crime, the level of overall crime is far more complex an issue. The indisputable fact is that less guns means less gun crime in comparable cultures.
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
sorry that makes too much sense, and puts the burden of work on the elected officials instead of convention scapegoats. Everyone knows that more guns = more crime is an absolute indisputable fact, and that if you disagree, its only because your just a killer in waiting (gun owner)
/sarcasm
I thought that when you took away peoples ability to protect their stuff with guns, only the criminals will have guns and so the crime rate goes up :confused:
Which is why the NRA and gun snatching politicians are both full of crap.
Americans seemed to have forgotten one of the primary reasons for the 2nd. If a nation is well armed it has less of a need for a large standing army. The things a large standing military is really good at is driving a nation into debt and increasing the power of government. The 2nd wasn't put into place to fight tanks with ar15s, it was put into place to defund the tanks because they are not needed in a nation that has more guns than citizens, oceans to the easy and west, and friendly neighbors to the north and south.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
sorry that makes too much sense, and puts the burden of work on the elected officials instead of convention scapegoats. Everyone knows that more guns = more crime is an absolute indisputable fact, and that if you disagree, its only because your just a killer in waiting (gun owner)
/sarcasm
I thought that when you took away peoples ability to protect their stuff with guns, only the criminals will have guns and so the crime rate goes up :confused:
Which is why the NRA and gun snatching politicians are both full of crap.
Americans seemed to have forgotten one of the primary reasons for the 2nd. If a nation is well armed it has less of a need for a large standing army. The things a large standing military is really good at is driving a nation into debt and increasing the power of government. The 2nd wasn't put into place to fight tanks with ar15s, it was put into place to defund the tanks because they are not needed in a nation that has more guns than citizens, oceans to the easy and west, and friendly neighbors to the north and south.
That's true... but, we really don't have a "large standing army" with respect to our population.
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
sorry that makes too much sense, and puts the burden of work on the elected officials instead of convention scapegoats. Everyone knows that more guns = more crime is an absolute indisputable fact, and that if you disagree, its only because your just a killer in waiting (gun owner)
/sarcasm
I thought that when you took away peoples ability to protect their stuff with guns, only the criminals will have guns and so the crime rate goes up :confused:
Which is why the NRA and gun snatching politicians are both full of crap.
Americans seemed to have forgotten one of the primary reasons for the 2nd. If a nation is well armed it has less of a need for a large standing army. The things a large standing military is really good at is driving a nation into debt and increasing the power of government. The 2nd wasn't put into place to fight tanks with ar15s, it was put into place to defund the tanks because they are not needed in a nation that has more guns than citizens, oceans to the easy and west, and friendly neighbors to the north and south.
That's true... but, we really don't have a "large standing army" with respect to our population.
We just have a lot of expensive toys.
The toys were not available in 1776, but one thing has remained consistent over thousands of years of human history. Maintaining a powerful military in peacetime is expensive. It really doesn't matter how military spending changes over time, what matters is the following is what the founders were trying to avoid.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
sorry that makes too much sense, and puts the burden of work on the elected officials instead of convention scapegoats. Everyone knows that more guns = more crime is an absolute indisputable fact, and that if you disagree, its only because your just a killer in waiting (gun owner)
/sarcasm
I thought that when you took away peoples ability to protect their stuff with guns, only the criminals will have guns and so the crime rate goes up :confused:
Which is why the NRA and gun snatching politicians are both full of crap.
Americans seemed to have forgotten one of the primary reasons for the 2nd. If a nation is well armed it has less of a need for a large standing army. The things a large standing military is really good at is driving a nation into debt and increasing the power of government. The 2nd wasn't put into place to fight tanks with ar15s, it was put into place to defund the tanks because they are not needed in a nation that has more guns than citizens, oceans to the easy and west, and friendly neighbors to the north and south.
That's true... but, we really don't have a "large standing army" with respect to our population.
We just have a lot of expensive toys.
The toys were not available in 1776, but one thing has remained consistent over thousands of years of human history. Maintaining a powerful military in peacetime is expensive. It really doesn't matter how military spending changes over time, what matters is the following is what the founders were trying to avoid.
Um... how so? (the founder father part).
And... so what? It just means, don't feth with us.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/09 19:34:05
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
Those are the major factors that determine a murder rate. All gun ownership or gun control does for personel safety against crime is give people an easy to produce illusion of safety when the real issues causing the crime are very difficult to solve.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
1. Is this another thread on why lawful gun owners are bad people?
2. Is this another thread why owning weapons are bad?
3. Is this another thread on why owning certain weapons are bad?
4. Is this another thread on why my perception of owning a weapon is immoral?
5. Is this another thread where since I own multiple weapons I might be a danger to the public?
I need to make one correction for Frazz...It was Native Americans and Mexican Bandits she ran off her front lawn of 40 acres.....with an old school scatter gun.....bowie knife that put the fear in Bowie himself.....tough old betty that can shave with dull busted glass by moonlight...She always had on hand her CSAAWDL unit......
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
Sure, and you can pick out all the countries that are wealthy, and in which various programs and economic conditions greatly reduce the underclass and the conditions they suffer, and in which effective policing with minimal corruption has greatly reduced the overall crime rate... and call this the developed world.
And you can line all them up, UK, US, Canada, Germany, France, Australia, Japan etc.., and you can see they've all got very, very low rates of murder... except the US. The US has a murder rate about 4 or 5 times higher than the worst of the rest. And while the rate among the rest varies very little, the US is way out there. I mean, your per capita rate is worse than India, and I don't think anyone would want to claim they've got police that are anywhere near as effective, or a smaller permanent underclass.
And then you got to think about why that is. When other forms of crime like assault and robbery are consistent with those other countries, and even lower than many of those other countries, why would murder be so much higher? What unique features about the US might cause a spike in murder.
From there, it really shouldn't be too hard to look at the proliferation of guns.
Now, as I've said many times in this thread, that doesn't mean the solution is to ban guns. Alchohol kills plenty more people, but the social good is in the opinion of most people worth it. But it does mean to stop pretending that having more tools designed to make killing easier doesn't mean that there won't be more killing.
Economic collapse is making the point way too strongly. But it's a simple fact that when you spend a billion on one thing, then you can't spend it on something else. A billion on a new high end weapon platform is a billion that could have been spent improving roads, which would make transport less costly and therefore encourage economic development.
And so you have to look at what you get from spending 700 billion a year on your military. It doesn't improve your national security - you have great big oceans on both sides, and there is not one nation in the world with the force projection to cross that ocean with a combat effective force, let alone maintain supply to any occupying army. It does allow you to protect your economic and political interests elsewhere in the world, as per the two wars with Iraq, and Afghanistan and all the rest. But that functionality represents only a tiny portion of that 700 billion budget, much of it gets piled in to next gen fighter craft and the like designed to fight a straight up conventional war with... all of the no countries trying to directly compete with you militarily.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/10 06:12:46
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
SilverMK2 wrote: If the two men hacked apart asentioned abpve had been armed would it have saved them from aomepne who jumps them with a large bladed weapon?
I'm afraid I must cite Indiana Jones in support that it would:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/10 06:52:17
1. Is this another thread on why lawful gun owners are bad people?
2. Is this another thread why owning weapons are bad?
3. Is this another thread on why owning certain weapons are bad?
4. Is this another thread on why my perception of owning a weapon is immoral?
5. Is this another thread where since I own multiple weapons I might be a danger to the public?
I need to make one correction for Frazz...It was Native Americans and Mexican Bandits she ran off her front lawn of 40 acres.....with an old school scatter gun.....bowie knife that put the fear in Bowie himself.....tough old betty that can shave with dull busted glass by moonlight...She always had on hand her CSAAWDL unit......
This is a thread discussing tax reforms in Elizabethan England!
Seriously, I know what you're saying. These threads pop up every 2-3 days and always follow the same arguments. The mods should make a gun thread sticky so people can just sound off their views when they're in the mood.
To sum up 1000 threads on guns (past present and future)
1. America has a lot of guns. Seriously! 2. Britain doesn't like guns.
3. Good guys have guns, bad guys have guns.
Thread over!
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
1. Is this another thread on why lawful gun owners are bad people?
2. Is this another thread why owning weapons are bad?
3. Is this another thread on why owning certain weapons are bad?
4. Is this another thread on why my perception of owning a weapon is immoral?
5. Is this another thread where since I own multiple weapons I might be a danger to the public?
I need to make one correction for Frazz...It was Native Americans and Mexican Bandits she ran off her front lawn of 40 acres.....with an old school scatter gun.....bowie knife that put the fear in Bowie himself.....tough old betty that can shave with dull busted glass by moonlight...She always had on hand her CSAAWDL unit......
No I think the title of the thread was Britain wants her guns back. Britain be the the main emphasis here. I personally couldn't care less about Americans and there Gun laws. No offense but its not my problem. You can Justify the right to owning guns all you want, "Defending your country so the Military doesn't have to" and all the other crap that has been posted by Americans.
But as some one who actually lives in Britain. I do not want Guns. Knives are banned in England, But yet there is a high level of Knife crime. If Guns where more available these Stabbings would soon turn to shootings. And Its a lot easier to point a gun and pull a trigger than it is for someone to physically stab someone. I will take my chances against someone threatening my life and the life of my family with a knife. But if someone has a gun, then you have no chance.
I'd much rather defend my family with my fists rather than a hand gun.
The argument made by Americans here is only to justifies there own "Love for guns" little to none of your arguments have anything to do with Britain or its inhabitants.
Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
Look at this map and tell me it's gun control or freedom to buy guns that drives the homicide rate.
The factors I see that cause the rate to go up and down are
#1 Is the country poor, on an economic downturn, or possessing a large permanent underclass?
#2 Is there a lot of crime and/or drug use?
#3 Is the government effective at catching criminals?
Sure, and you can pick out all the countries that are wealthy, and in which various programs and economic conditions greatly reduce the underclass and the conditions they suffer, and in which effective policing with minimal corruption has greatly reduced the overall crime rate... and call this the developed world.
And you can line all them up, UK, US, Canada, Germany, France, Australia, Japan etc.., and you can see they've all got very, very low rates of murder... except the US. The US has a murder rate about 4 or 5 times higher than the worst of the rest. And while the rate among the rest varies very little, the US is way out there. I mean, your per capita rate is worse than India, and I don't think anyone would want to claim they've got police that are anywhere near as effective, or a smaller permanent underclass.
And then you got to think about why that is. When other forms of crime like assault and robbery are consistent with those other countries, and even lower than many of those other countries, why would murder be so much higher? What unique features about the US might cause a spike in murder.
From there, it really shouldn't be too hard to look at the proliferation of guns.
Now, as I've said many times in this thread, that doesn't mean the solution is to ban guns. Alchohol kills plenty more people, but the social good is in the opinion of most people worth it. But it does mean to stop pretending that having more tools designed to make killing easier doesn't mean that there won't be more killing.
Economic collapse is making the point way too strongly. But it's a simple fact that when you spend a billion on one thing, then you can't spend it on something else. A billion on a new high end weapon platform is a billion that could have been spent improving roads, which would make transport less costly and therefore encourage economic development.
And so you have to look at what you get from spending 700 billion a year on your military. It doesn't improve your national security - you have great big oceans on both sides, and there is not one nation in the world with the force projection to cross that ocean with a combat effective force, let alone maintain supply to any occupying army. It does allow you to protect your economic and political interests elsewhere in the world, as per the two wars with Iraq, and Afghanistan and all the rest. But that functionality represents only a tiny portion of that 700 billion budget, much of it gets piled in to next gen fighter craft and the like designed to fight a straight up conventional war with... all of the no countries trying to directly compete with you militarily.
#1 The US isn't poor, but the middle class has been in an economic downturn for decades, and we have a large permanent underclass.
#2 We have huge drug and crime problems. Drug prohibition seems to have caused more problems than alcohol prohibition. We have more people behind bars and in our criminal justice system than China, and they have 4 times as many people as we do.
#3 We have well funded police that are spread way too thin. It takes a lot of time and money to imprison 1% of your population and fight a war on drugs, there is not much time and money left to catch people for murder, and most people don't care all that much because it's criminals killing criminals. In literally 90% of murders the suspect knows the victim. People only really care when murders don't fit the pattern and threatens their own sense of security.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
I'd much rather defend my family with my fists rather than a hand gun.
I suspect I can better defend my family with a gun than with my fists, and I know for a fact my wife can better defend with a gun than with her fists. I'm glad we have that choice.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
I'd much rather defend my family with my fists rather than a hand gun.
The argument made by Americans here is only to justifies there own "Love for guns" little to none of your arguments have anything to do with Britain or its inhabitants.
translation: I don't have a family to defend, and I'm Mike Tyson.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
I'd much rather defend my family with my fists rather than a hand gun.
I suspect I can better defend my family with a gun than with my fists, and I know for a fact my wife can better defend with a gun than with her fists. I'm glad we have that choice.
But you don't have a choice regarding escalation, we do, and the majority of Brits are perfectly happy with a low number of guns among criminals.
easysauce wrote: and i am sure you would rather spit on a fire then have a fire extinguisher,
some of us are not chuck norris super heros and use the right tools for the job,
40-80 THOUSAND people use guns to defend themselves from people and animals combined in canada.
its far more in the states, so please stop being willfully ignorant of the benifits of guns.
its disegenuous and dishonest to have a debate about the pros and cons of something when you completely ignore the pros.
The right tool for not being the victim of crime is a better society, not lethal weapons to anyone who wants them regardless of skill, basic safety training or mental health.
So what would be the pros of owning a gun in the UK?
dæl wrote: So what would be the pros of owning a gun in the UK?
We could keep out those damn Yankees!
It could be a fun hobby I suppose but other than that I can't think of any particular pro of owning a gun in the UK unless you used it for pest control like most firearms owners in the UK currently do anyway.
But you don't have a choice regarding escalation, we do, and the majority of Brits are perfectly happy with a low number of guns among criminals.
Choice regarding escalation? You guys dont' have a choice. You cannot choose to escalate. We do get the choice.
You misunderstand, the situation there has been escalated already, criminals have and use guns because they are easily available and the chance of coming up against another gun is quite high. The situation here is that that escalation hasn't happened, so we could choose to proliferate guns but why would we want to do that?
I'd much rather defend my family with my fists rather than a hand gun.
The argument made by Americans here is only to justifies there own "Love for guns" little to none of your arguments have anything to do with Britain or its inhabitants.
translation: I don't have a family to defend, and I'm Mike Tyson.
I do have a wife and two children, what kind of a keyboard warrior goes around accusing people of lying about there family? Just because you don't like the fact that a British person, living in a Britain, sees no need for owning a firearm. Again read the Thread topic. THIS IS NOT ABOUT AMERICA, i have no interest on your gun laws. Its too late to ban guns in countries, where probably every house hold owns at least 1 firearm. And saying there are benefits to holding a handgun is a mute point coming from countries where the majority do own firearms, of course you are going to see a benefit, you don't know any other way.
But in a country like Britain (the one in the thread title) Guns are not freely available and the need to defend our self's with guns is not needed. By introducing a law where by anybody can apply for a gun. you are creating a hell of a lot more problems. I know its hard for people from countries that have guns to understand, as that's all you know. But i for one am glad that if someone breaks into my house at night, the chances of them carrying a firearm are slim to none. And is far more easier to defend your family against. Open gun laws mean that the chances of someone breaking into your house wile being armed with a firearm are 90% because of the availability of the firearms.
Look at the American police. Most of the time if they pull someone over they have there hand on there gun ready to draw it. WHY? because guns are easily available and they have to protect them self's because of this. In Britain (the one in the thread title, Because you seem to keep forgetting) All our police officers need is a Pen and Note Pad, WHY? because guns are not easily available and the chances of someone pulling a gun on them are slim to none.
And I'm not debating anything. I'm telling you, Britain does not need guns. And yes I live in Britain. An American or Canadian cannot preach to me the Pros of owning a gun. In your countries the criminals carry guns. So yeah the whole why should it only be criminals carrying the guns, is a valid argument for YOUR countries. Not Britain. We don't have many Criminals carrying guns here. And its a much safer place because of it.
Stop watching Snatch, and thinking that's the average British criminal. There is actually a very small amount of Shotgun wielding cockneys.
Latest Blog Post: 7th edition first thoughts and pictures.
