Will you play against forgeworld units and/or armies?

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**ansacs**

Okay so for my own curiosity I am running a poll of who will play against forgeworld and if there are particular key units/armies people really dislike.

Feel free to post the ___ units but overall this thread is just for the poll and I do not want it to degrade into the normal legality of forgeworld or insults about products or people these questions tend to become

...if you feel like you need to vent

then please start a new thread as this thread is not meant to be locked by a mod. (apologies to the mods if they end up having to do so)

Full disclosure I have eldar corsairs and Death Korps of Krieg armies with fairly sizable forgeworld components to each. I however also am entirely capable of fielding large codex armies for DA, IG, Eldar, CD, and CSM (I have been in the hobby for a while and perhaps have more money than sense

). Therefore I care very little if any dakkadakka users play with or against FW units.

I will put a short blurp in this spoiler outlining the conflict as I see it for those of you who are not familiar.

Even if you think you know it all you may want to check this out as I often see massive amounts of miss-information thrown around in these arguments. If you are more familiar than me and can clarify any point in this blurp then please feel free to correct me.

Spoiler:

**motyak**

I'll play against anything legal (which includes the 40K FW stuff). I enjoy playing the game against anything, I don't see how more variety in armies would stop that.

edit: that being said this comes up a LOT so this could end badly/be really short. Just look at kronk/loki/maybe peregrine's sig to get an idea of how often this is discussed.

**TechMarine1**

Yes, but NO super heavies. I think it would be really cool if somebody used a Death Korps of Krieg Siege Army or the Eldar list from "Doom of Mymeara".

**Troike**

Sure, I wouldn't mind. As long as they're within the points limits, I won't be awkward about it. You'll certainly make more friends, and thus get more games, if you're cool about this sort of stuff.

And hey, I've got Dominions. Should neutralise whatever powerful heavy armour they can bring using FW anyway.

**motyak**

TechMarine1 wrote:
Yes, but NO super heavies.

I don't think there are any 40k legal superheavies, so that wouldn't be an issue. If I'm off someone can correct me

**ansacs**

motyak wrote:
I'll play against anything legal (which includes the 40K FW stuff). I enjoy playing the game against anything, I don't see how more variety in armies would stop that.

edit: that being said this comes up a LOT so this could end badly/be really short. Just look at kronk/loki/maybe peregrine's sig to get an idea of how often this is discussed.

Yeah that is actually why I started this. After hearing ~50 times that the majority of people do not play against FW I wanted to see what the dakkadakka user base majority was.

**Krellnus**

Provided they bring the rules for their FW stuff, or at least have access to an open copy of the rules as I would expect for any of the GW armies/units.

**Trickstick**

motyak wrote:
I don't think there are any 40k legal superheavies, so that wouldn't be an issue. If I'm off someone can correct me

Not that I can think of. The only apocalypse thing that I know which is "40k legal" is that the manticore can take a 7" blast. It does lose str10, the d3 shots and barrage though, so is not super powerful. If I am taking a manticore, barrage is one of the main reasons I do.

**Jimsolo**

I clicked both the 'conditionally's.' (And only afterwards realized I could have also clicked the bottom one! Curses!) Bottom line is that some of the units are unbalanced, most are reasonable. To avoid the headache, I do not allow them in competitive events I preside over. If the rule of the competitive event is that the opponent decides (which I've seen, actually) I do not allow my opponent to use them. In friendly play, knock yourself out, it's all good.

**killykavekommando**

I'm fine with it, as long as it's used for fun and not exclusively for tactical purposes (i.e. Tau using Tetras because their army is an expeditionary force). However, if someone were to bring in a mega-list that was designed entirely to wipe the floor with my troops, then I probably woudn't allow it, as there's no fun in that for either of us.

**chromedog**

It's not the army but the player that makes me not want to play against it.

There was a guy in my club who claimed that the reason I never wanted to play him was because he used FW in his lists.

The actual reason was that he lied, cheated and whined and generally behaved like a 4 year old.

**Chancetragedy**

I'll play against any army, any time, any place forgeworld or no. So I voted yes. Nothing about its brokenness bothers me, despite not owning any of the broken stuff. I think a lot of it is cool and all so I'd allow it.

**Cryogen**

The option I would choose isn't in the poll. I will and do play against forgeworld, but I'd prefer not to. I own no forgeworld myself and have no plan to. Price isn't the reason, as an Aussie it's more or less the same price as normal GW stuff, lol.

It's for a few different reasons but I'm not here to start a debate on personal preferences

**Peregrine**

Play FW armies/units, will play against FW armies/units without question. I might not want to play against a list that spams all the most overpowered ones, but I'm also not going to want to play against a pure codex list that spams the most overpowered units, whether or not the overpowered spam is FW or codex is irrelevant to me.

Also, I just like clicking on things.

**StarTrotter**

I'll play against it gladly. Many a time it brings unique armies (I particularly like Elysians and DKoK) and adds interesting little twists. Sure, I won't play against FW armies that spam the broken armies but I wouldn't play against any army that does that (unless I feel like I want to take a challenge and see how well I can play) Forge World or just codex.

**Bobthehero**

Wooooh clicking!

My whole army is FW, refusing to play someone because they bring a FW unit is therefore the most sensible thing to do for me, all the OP gribblies are to be mine and mine only!

**Ailaros**

I voted for the top two. The miniatures that a player brings is lower down on my list of priorities than other things, like the personality of my to-be opponent, for example.

As such, I'd let my opponent play with FW stuff up until the point where he made some comment about how I'd have to let him play with FW stuff, at which point I'd instantly know that he's not the kind of person worth playing a game against, and so I wouldn't.

Life's too short to suffer the domineering and the proud, much less play games with them. The fact that you get a higher percentage of said kinds of people with FW units than without is as sad as it is rather predictable.

**Dakkamite**

I've got no problem playing against Forgeworld stuff. If the stuff in question turned out to be more "overpowered" and less "awesome" then I'd always have an ace up my sleeve; "waaaah, forgeworld isn't officially approved! You can't use it!"

**ShadowSolstice**

Personally, I would play FW units, as long as they're not seemingly overpowered in their circumstance. I thinks FA units are insanely cool-looking and fun to play and paint, and looking on the other person's point of view, I'd like to give them the chance to play out their models.

The only reason I wouldn't play against Forgeworld units would be if my opponent would be one of those would-be play-to-win people.

**ansacs**

Thank you very much everyone who has posted/voted so far, this thread is going excellently especially for a FW thread.

I am glad that a significant number of us like to click things.

I am curious about the disparity between those who would play against FW units and those who would play against FW lists. It is currently a 7 person difference. Though perhaps it is the poll and the order I listed the questions in. (ie clicked the first yes play against FW option then exit)

@Cryogen
You are right I forgot to expand the conditional agreement and disagreement options, I will have to remember if I do another poll. My poll can now be called into question by polling agencies around the world!

**Ailaros**

ansacs wrote:I am glad that a significant number of us like to click things.

I clicked exalt on your post, so that I got to click on more things.

ansacs wrote:I am curious about the disparity between those who would play against FW units and those who would play against FW lists.

On the surface, there isn't much difference, thus an understandably small disparity.

That said, I've found there tends to be a MASSIVE mindset difference between people who use FW units, and people who use FW armies. People who play whole armies of FW are doing so because, despite often being vaguely underpowered, they like the minis, and they like the theme. They will refer to what their bringing as "My DKoK army", and the like. Generally, there isn't much to complain about.

People who bring FW units tend to fall much more heavily into the "The army I'm fielding to win games isn't as powerful as it could be" camp. You can naturally see why a person with that attitude would quickly tend towards the insufferable.

I still think that people's attitudes towards FW stuff (who don't themselves, play with FW stuff), is a reaction to the attitude of the FW players, much moreso than the forgeworld units (mostly). If FW gets associated with the kinds of people who are way richer than you and are way more of a powergamer than you, then you can see where a negative reaction to FW in general comes from. Well, that and you're much more likely to come across a person allying in a single unit or two than you are to see a proper set-piece army entirely from an IA book.

**ansacs**

Ailaros wrote:
ansacs wrote:I am glad that a significant number of us like to click things.

I clicked exalt on your post, so that I got to click on more things.

ansacs wrote:I am curious about the disparity between those who would play against FW units and those who would play against FW lists.

On the surface, there isn't much difference, thus an understandably small disparity.

That said, I've found there tends to be a MASSIVE mindset difference between people who use FW units, and people who use FW armies. People who play whole armies of FW are doing so because, despite often being vaguely underpowered, they like the minis, and they like the theme. They will refer to what their bringing as "My DKoK army", and the like. Generally, there isn't much to complain about.

People who bring FW units tend to fall much more heavily into the "The army I'm fielding to win games isn't as powerful as it could be" camp. You can naturally see why a person with that attitude would quickly tend towards the insufferable.

I still think that people's attitudes towards FW stuff (who don't themselves, play with FW stuff), is a reaction to the attitude of the FW players, much moreso than the forgeworld units (mostly). If FW gets associated with the kinds of people who are way richer than you and are way more of a powergamer than you, then you can see where a negative reaction to FW in general comes from. Well, that and you're much more likely to come across a person allying in a single unit or two than you are to see a proper set-piece army entirely from an IA book.

That is actually what I was surprised about. The poll actually shows the opposite. People are more likely to play against FW units than FW armies by 8 votes now. I would have thought they would prefer the armies as they tend to be much weaker than mix and match lists. The actual FW lists are really theme oriented and often have a neat trick in it but tend to be underwhelming.

I don't have a huge amount of experience with FW users (other than myself who has alot of FW) but it would stink if they were TFGs however I have not found that to be the case. Perhaps another poll is in order?

I should make a poll with the options:
I like clicking
I hate clicking
Which would get more votes?

**-Loki-**

Ailaros wrote:
People who bring FW units tend to fall much more heavily into the "The army I'm fielding to win games isn't as powerful as it could be" camp. You can naturally see why a person with that attitude would quickly tend towards the insufferable.

I find people who think like this are generally in the 'I like to use broad brushes to generalize groups of people' camp.

**JWhex**

I dont think you can dissect the results of this poll very deeply. The way you set it up and the fact that some people may not realize you can have multiple choices makes it hard to interpret.

I think you can say that a substantial number of people surveyed are OK with FW rules. Beyond that not so much is clear other than among those polled only a small minority would refuse to play FW.

Cutesy poll reply options dont really help this or any other poll, I dont know why people feel compelled to add them to their polls.

**Ailaros**

-Loki- wrote:I find people who think like this are generally in the 'I like to use broad brushes to generalize groups of people' camp.

If only people could be categorized into abstract concepts.

It would make a discussion like this a whole lot easier than having to talk about each person individually, and it would make a poll like this actually possible to conduct.

**Peregrine**

Ailaros wrote:
That said, I've found there tends to be a MASSIVE mindset difference between people who use FW units, and people who use FW armies. People who play whole armies of FW are doing so because, despite often being vaguely underpowered, they like the minis, and they like the theme. They will refer to what their bringing as "My DKoK army", and the like. Generally, there isn't much to complain about.

People who bring FW units tend to fall much more heavily into the "The army I'm fielding to win games isn't as powerful as it could be" camp. You can naturally see why a person with that attitude would quickly tend towards the insufferable.

That's a ridiculous argument, for two reasons:

1) Not all FW units are available in FW army lists. For example, if you want to use a Tau Barracuda you're playing a codex Tau army with FW units added (there is no FW Tau list).

2) Not all FW lists fit the theme you want. For example, if you want a Destroyer tank hunter (a unit that is mediocre at best) you're limited to playing the armored company list with nothing but tanks and mechanized infantry. If your army theme is an infantry horde the only way to get that Destroyer without completely wrecking your army theme is to play a codex list with FW units added.

The ONLY reason you see the kind of divide you're claiming is that FW army lists tend to be weak, so "WAAC" players never use them. But that doesn't mean that only WAAC players use codex lists with FW units included.

If FW gets associated with the kinds of people who are way richer than you and are way more of a powergamer than you, then you can see where a negative reaction to FW in general comes from.

Well then maybe you should stop trying to promote that association, especially since it isn't a legitimate one?

Well, that and you're much more likely to come across a person allying in a single unit or two than you are to see a proper set-piece army entirely from an IA book.

Well, that's certainly stating the obvious. Of course there are more people who like a unit or two for their lists from the flexible codices than people who like the variant army lists that are dedicated to a single specific theme. And that's on top of the people who play armies that have FW models but no FW army lists at all.

**Brother SRM**

Adds more variety to the game, so I'm all for it. The only thing I'd say no to are Apocalypse-stamped units, which are obviously not meant for regular 40k anyway.

**ansacs**

JWhex wrote:
I dont think you can dissect the results of this poll very deeply. The way you set it up and the fact that some people may not realize you can have multiple choices makes it hard to interpret.

I think you can say that a substantial number of people surveyed are OK with FW rules. Beyond that not so much is clear other than among those polled only a small minority would refuse to play FW.

Cutesy poll reply options dont really help this or any other poll, I dont know why people feel compelled to add them to their polls.

Actually the "cutsey" poll reply option is the null choice meaning they just wanted to be involved but have no opinion. Any poll without said option quickly gets skewed to the shiniest option (aka the option that draws attention so people can click on it quickly). This is an interesting psychological phenomenon in human beings who are largely group/pack mentalities.

I did forget several of the "grey" options that would have allowed people to express their opinions more freely and the polling format is not the most robust format in the first place so you are correct that that result may, as I indicated in a previous post, be a factor of people not realizing you can select more than one option but the results are still largely interesting. It is heavily tilted toward okay with playing against FW but as indicated may be skewed due to relative lack of "grey" options. Still if the trend continues then it is a 4:1 result which is way beyond even extreme error limits.

**Vaktathi**

There's a lot of people with either bad experience or complete misconceptions as to what forgeworld is. Many people have been burned by someone showing up with something and claiming it does X but not having the correct rules or outright cheating. Many think Forgeworld is some mystery factory for powergaming fanfic units. Some automatically assume Forgeworld=Titans. There's a particularly annoying player at my FLGS that made FW somewhat awkward for a while by always talking about how he was going to bring "Forgeworld unit X and Y that does Z and will totally roxxors all your soxxorz" and making a huge deal out of stuff until I actually explained what the stuff did and what restrictions were on it (no...you can't take an Elysian list where Vendettas are BS4 dedicated transports...)

When people have their rules and understand that FW is basically just fleshing out the 40k universe, very rarely are there really problems, aside from when someone picks the one or two units that happen to be abusive and abuses the crap out of them, which really isn't any different than normal Codex stuff either.

**Ailaros**

To be fair, though, that's what the conversation part of the forum is for. If you were to make a poll that offered every possible nuance, then you'd have to have as many poll options as there are people.

The poll is for the fast gleaning of general trends. If you want more in-depth information, that's what the rest of the thread is for.