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In the case of 2x weapons VS TL weapons i would say its a matter of markerlights or how much points you can shave off your suits to buy something else.

Personally i go for 2x Fusion Guns + Flamer ( instead of the TL + Flamer set-up ) as i got 2 chances of penetrating instead of one per suit, and i consider 4+ as reasonable odds.

So i will think it depends all on your use of markerlights and how badly you want your suits to rely on markerlights, ofcourse you get a lot more hits but you set yourself a bit short if you lose your markerlights.

In the case of a "Special weapon team" Pathfinders that Jan use, TL would make sense as the markerlights might rather fire their weapons over markerlights in case no targets present itself as "unkillable" due to coversaves.

In the case of Markerlight drones, Pathfinders and Snipers you will earn more by having double weapons, its more expensive in terms of weaponry ( 10-15 points more expensive than TL ) but you get that extra chance to wound.

So i have to conclude with that this Codex is less reliant on markerlights than its previous edition with the current codex due to a lot of Twin-linked weaponry, so you could suprise oppoments that is used to markerlight Taus and take him offguard with even more shooty squads than normal.

4TheG8erGood wrote:
Instead of starting another thread, I thought I would ask here.

Anyone have effective tactics with Stealth Suits? To me, the FOC just seems too packed to justify them. Have people used them successfully?

All i want to say is that I love my stealthsuits. They are usually infiltrated and i always max out fusions. Today they netted me first blood(killed 2 csm, got assaulted, killed champ with overwatch n then beat up the remaining 2 in CC), line beaker and almost killed his HQ. I Always take them! I usually kit them out with overwatch upgrade and TLs on the fusion because they can usually kill and tank and almost always get charged! They very very rarely disappoint me in a game.

It was only a 500pt game, my stealths and my missleside both competed for MVP, misslile side killed probably 9csm by itself(some were havocs and some were normal) but didnt actually net me any VP and my stealths almost got me 3 of them

 chrisrawr wrote:
4 Meltas on 2 suits is 10 points more (total) than 2 TL meltas on 2 suits, but gets an extra .5 hits on average. Always worth it.

Perhaps but I need the suits to be able to do more than kill a tank.


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Coyote81 wrote:

You might pm jancoran and he can link you to an indepth thead on stealthsuits that was recently on the forum, no need to recreate that thread here.
.

Here you go:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528694.page

So new farseers can get "guide" and "prescience" and are mastery level 3. I think my new go-to alliance will be eldar for the farseers and a 5 man dire avenger squad. For under 200 points you get a scoring unit and twin-link 2 units (typically pathfinders or deathshowers w/marker drones).

Wolfnid420 wrote:
All i want to say is that I love my stealthsuits. They are usually infiltrated and i always max out fusions. Today they netted me first blood(killed 2 csm, got assaulted, killed champ with overwatch n then beat up the remaining 2 in CC), line beaker and almost killed his HQ. I Always take them! I usually kit them out with overwatch upgrade and TLs on the fusion because they can usually kill and tank and almost always get charged! They very very rarely disappoint me in a game.

Well you spent over 200 points on one unit to kill off a 75-100 point unit and it took a turn of shooting, overwatch, and CC. Not really that effective when you consider that a Riptide would have done the same job for fewer points. Throw in the sheer number of outflank, deepstrike, infiltrating, or jetpack units the army can bring and line breaker really shouldn't be an issue since you'll have 5 turns to make it to the enemy DZ.

The problem with stealth suits for me is they lack versatility. If I want a tank dead I can bring suits that are more cost effective for taking down armor, a dual purpose hammerhead, or even a nova charged riptide. Stealth suits are stuck with a limited load out and only able to take 1 fusion at normal size and a second if you pay an extra 90 points. In a codex that allows so much versatility and now dual armament of weapons on crisis suits, it's amazing to see stealth suits still being so limited in what they can bring. If I could pick the weapons on stealth suits I'd take them in a heart beat. Instead I can take a single dual fusion suit and deepstrike with a small foot print for 52 points and get the same anti-tank firepower as 180 points of stealth suits.

The fact that it was a 500 point game might have been the key factor in this, since Tau are able to maintain efficiency at just about all point levels while I know CSM really start to shine once they get to higher point games and can afford some extra neccessities. Basically if he had some noise marines or a heldrake then your 200 point unit would have done very little to justify their point cost.

a neat trick i used back in the old dex for cracking landraiders or transports with high value assault unit inside.

1. pathfinder unit 1 lights up the tank in or transport in question. markerlights are spend to remove cover saves and boost the BS of a broadside team (or railhead or both)

2. broadsides/rail head open up and wreck the tank. passengers disembark, usually into cover

3. second pathfinder team markers up the now disembarked unit. removes cover, boosts bs, maybe even hits the LD.

4. if i have to, FW markerlight support on section 3

5. crisis units now unload plasma and fusion into target unit. no cover..boosted BS and if lucky a LD penalty. that unit is now dead, fleeing, or severly crippled.

as for stealth suits, again in the previous rules i used them as a flank gaurd, objective counter force. i would send them after an objective in my opponents deployment zone, and use them to harass those holding it. not so well in the rules, as no more random spotting distance... but i imagine they could still do that job well enough. plus, vrs a horde army like orks, nids or IG, having a ton of mid str shots is golden.

Hmm, with the introduction of Wraithknight, and the Riptide users around Snipers might be a much better asset than previously, with outright ignoring toughness is going to help out a bit.

The Sniper rounds were useful for me since Day 1. There are several players in my area that really enjoy running MC heavy lists and Kroot can really force quite a bit of hurt on them. It's why a lot of players are taking Kroot exclusively in their lists instead of Firewarriors. While I believe the Kroot are more versatile and cost effective for what they offer, I do think that Firewarriors still have a good spot in guarding backfield objectives and acting as support fire speed bumps.

I meant to ask this before, has anyone had any luck or tried sniper drones yet? I have seen a few people mention them, generally bringing 3 spotters and 3 snipers just for extra cost effective marker support. I've heard plans to take maxed out sniper drones but haven't heard any of the results. I imagine that it's mostly due to few people actually having sniper drone teams since they were somewhat useless back in the previous codex.

Crisis Team Drone Hit-Squad;
3 XV8's. 2 suits (dual fusion, target lock), 1 suit (fusion, tl, DC). 6 MLD

The Drones provide ablative wounds towards the middle of the game, to allow the suits to remain effective right at the end. The drones are a mobile, accurate (tau BS3!) and tough markerlight source. The squad setup is by-far the most effecient to field them, without overcommit points or slots.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

I meant to ask this before, has anyone had any luck or tried sniper drones yet? I have seen a few people mention them, generally bringing 3 spotters and 3 snipers just for extra cost effective marker support. I've heard plans to take maxed out sniper drones but haven't heard any of the results. I imagine that it's mostly due to few people actually having sniper drone teams since they were somewhat useless back in the previous codex.

I heard about several tactics of drone usage:

one of them is the Min Drone / Max Marksman as a additional source of markerlights in addition to Pathfinders or instead of pathfinders as Fast attack is filled with Flyers, Pirhanas, Drones or Forgeworld models, added the survival with the Stealth rule and BS5 make it a tactic that can survive a few more shots and get markerlights on targets more reliable, However its a small unit, but the sniper drones are 48" rapid fire and can protect themselves.

Another is Max drone / min marksman, Tactic is to get rid of the marksman by putting him out in the open as bait, getting rid of him and then put all of the drones with a Commander with drone controller to have a very mobile unit of drones, fireing at the commanders BS5 and can JSJ without being leashed to a marksman that doesnt have jump jets ( tho you can JSJ with the drones, but you have to stick in coherency which means you must have a 2" leash to the marksman )

Otherwise you have Max Drone / any marksman back at base behind a ADL where the marksman take over the Gun and fire at his BS5 and any of the drones can fire at basically across the board at most times, and if you have an ethereal and your enemy is within rapid fire you can quickly deal out 3 shots per drone at 5BS, and they will be quite survivable in the Stealth + ADL cover saves.

Oh, to add. I love my firewarrior blob-squad.

12x FW + Fireblade. A fairly sizeable chunk of 13 models with 4+ saves (I've found my opponent too used to killing guardsmen) for durability. Supporting fire support from nearby units works well (hello missilsides!).

The amount of firepower they kick out is obscene. Kills flyers, decimates infantry and generally keeps up constant pressure. They are great! Run them with 3x 10man kroot snipers.

I considered the Fireblade for a while but can't see him in use above 1K games. Below that he works great at doubling your FW firepower and works great with sticking them behind an ADL, giving you a BS5 skyfire/interceptor lascannon. Outside of that, I think there are better options available. What point value games do you run him in?

I guess you pick a Fireblade and Ethereal when you want to have a firewarrior squad firing at their full 4 shots strenght and not spend too much points on HQ.

In 1k points you prolly take a fireblade with a pathfinder squad if you intend to outflank with them. *shrugs*

 DarthSpader wrote:
a neat trick i used back in the old dex for cracking landraiders or transports with high value assault unit inside.

1. pathfinder unit 1 lights up the tank in or transport in question. markerlights are spend to remove cover saves and boost the BS of a broadside team (or railhead or both)

2. broadsides/rail head open up and wreck the tank. passengers disembark, usually into cover

3. second pathfinder team markers up the now disembarked unit. removes cover, boosts bs, maybe even hits the LD.

4. if i have to, FW markerlight support on section 3

5. crisis units now unload plasma and fusion into target unit. no cover..boosted BS and if lucky a LD penalty. that unit is now dead, fleeing, or severly crippled.

as for stealth suits, again in the previous rules i used them as a flank guard, objective counter force. i would send them after an objective in my opponents deployment zone, and use them to harass those holding it. not so well in the rules, as no more random spotting distance... but i imagine they could still do that job well enough. plus, vrs a horde army like orks, nids or IG, having a ton of mid str shots is golden.

That broadside tactic doesn't really work anymore for Landraiders. I think we're mostly looking for tactics that work in the new codex. I know some transfer from the old, but like focus on new tactics.

well broadsides may not work on a landraider, but a railhead def will. and it dosent have to be those units to open the tank. heck, a deepstruck unit of crisis with a bunch of fusion, or any other unit with fusion that can get in close. the idea is to use 2 teams of pathfinders to essentially make the target unit "go away" - with no cover, boosted BS etc etc. who uses the markerlights are up to the user.



(i also realize its an old trick, but hey - sometimes old ones or obvious ones need restating )

i was looking at the possibilty of darkstrider, in a big team of firewarriors, supported by an ethereal and a fireblade. with 3-4 good units of FW that might turn into a REAL hard posistion to crack, and with DFOC you can even fit a crisis commander in someplace.

Unfortunately you couldn't run Darkstrider, an ethereal, and a fireblade under 2k. Really the best use for Darkstrider would probably be outflanking pathfinders with the pulse accelerator drone and grave inhibitor drone. That way you're getting d6" + d3" to the charge distance and getting effectively S6 pulse carbines at 24". The real problem with him is his prohibitive point cost tied in with the cost of pathfinders. Sadly pathfinders are the only unit that can take the special drones.

Savageconvoy wrote:I considered the Fireblade for a while but can't see him in use above 1K games. Below that he works great at doubling your FW firepower and works great with sticking them behind an ADL, giving you a BS5 skyfire/interceptor lascannon. Outside of that, I think there are better options available. What point value games do you run him in?

Dracoknight wrote:I guess you pick a Fireblade and Ethereal when you want to have a firewarrior squad firing at their full 4 shots strenght and not spend too much points on HQ.

In 1k points you prolly take a fireblade with a pathfinder squad if you intend to outflank with them. *shrugs*

I play @ 1500pts. For the points he costs, the improvement he gives a core unit (I could have 15-18 kroot..) and the utility of a BS5 markerlight, makes him a great choice in any game.

Whilst you could spend more points on a more powerful HQ which may be able to buff another squad - you'll be fielding less.

Wolfnid420 wrote:

All i want to say is that I love my stealthsuits. They are usually infiltrated and i always max out fusions.

I applaud this. The use of stealthsuits is justified completely. I am looking forward to employing my own stealth army.


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 Savageconvoy wrote:

The problem with stealth suits for me is they lack versatility. If I want a tank dead I can bring suits that are more cost effective for taking down armor, a dual purpose hammerhead, or even a nova charged riptide. Stealth suits are stuck with a limited load out and only able to take 1 fusion at normal size and a second if you pay an extra 90 points. In a codex that allows so much versatility and now dual armament of weapons on crisis suits, it's amazing to see stealth suits still being so limited in what they can bring. If I could pick the weapons on stealth suits I'd take them in a heart beat. Instead I can take a single dual fusion suit and deepstrike with a small foot print for 52 points and get the same anti-tank firepower as 180 points of stealth suits.

The fact that it was a 500 point game might have been the key factor in this, since Tau are able to maintain efficiency at just about all point levels while I know CSM really start to shine once they get to higher point games and can afford some extra neccessities. Basically if he had some noise marines or a heldrake then your 200 point unit would have done very little to justify their point cost.

A lot of words but really, again, you need to focus on what you tourself are saying. You say:

1. "Lack of Versatility". what does that even MEAN when you're talking about a unit that is hard to see, has Anti tank AND anti-personnell and can PIN the enemy with its drones all wrapped into one? I mean what in the world is lacking about that in versatility? Your definition of versatility could perhaps use some review. You go on to say how you can get a specialized (READ: non versatile) assassin to kill tanks instead! You're not wrong that it might work well to kill tanks that way but you make no sense when in one breathe you say their "problem" is versatility only to turn around and say you'd prefer a specialist. Make up your mind as to which one you value. Versatility...or specialization.
2. "Only able to take 1 fusion at normal size and a second if you pay an extra 90 points". Sorry, perhaps read the codex again and notice that those 90 points come with something? Like...three more stealth suits.
3. You minimize his victory because of the opponents codex? Sorry. That's just a pile of Dingo's kidneys.

Anyways... here's my advice to anyone who will listen: Dont make excuses for winning OR losing; dont worry about people who define versatility this way; and dont take seriously any evaluation that tries to lump a Fusion blaster in as if it cost 90 points when it in fact does not.

If your point is to say that "I'd never take Stealthsuits", it's not very helpful.


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 DarthSpader wrote:
a neat trick i used back in the old dex for cracking landraiders or transports with high value assault unit inside.

1. pathfinder unit 1 lights up the tank in or transport in question. markerlights are spend to remove cover saves and boost the BS of a broadside team (or railhead or both)

2. broadsides/rail head open up and wreck the tank. passengers disembark, usually into cover

3. second pathfinder team markers up the now disembarked unit. removes cover, boosts bs, maybe even hits the LD.

4. if i have to, FW markerlight support on section 3

5. crisis units now unload plasma and fusion into target unit. no cover..boosted BS and if lucky a LD penalty. that unit is now dead, fleeing, or severly crippled.

as for stealth suits, again in the previous rules i used them as a flank gaurd, objective counter force. i would send them after an objective in my opponents deployment zone, and use them to harass those holding it. not so well in the rules, as no more random spotting distance... but i imagine they could still do that job well enough. plus, vrs a horde army like orks, nids or IG, having a ton of mid str shots is golden.

Brilliant! Exactly the right order of fire. Order of fire was really important for Tau in the previous codex and still is but MORE so in the last one. I bet this would work just fine in the new one!


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Dracoknight wrote:
Hmm, with the introduction of Wraithknight, and the Riptide users around Snipers might be a much better asset than previously, with outright ignoring toughness is going to help out a bit.

Just wait until you see wha the Alaitoc Pathfinders do in the new codex. Its awesome.


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 Savageconvoy wrote:

I meant to ask this before, has anyone had any luck or tried sniper drones yet? I have seen a few people mention them, generally bringing 3 spotters and 3 snipers just for extra cost effective marker support. I've heard plans to take maxed out sniper drones but haven't heard any of the results. I imagine that it's mostly due to few people actually having sniper drone teams since they were somewhat useless back in the previous codex.

I fired 36 sniper shots at a somewhat surprised opponent in my first trial with them. Nuked a Monstrous creature with it. then did it again. Fireblades and Ethereals make them scary.


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 Savageconvoy wrote:
Really the best use for Darkstrider would probably be outflanking pathfinders with the pulse accelerator drone and grave inhibitor drone. That way you're getting d6" + d3" to the charge distance and getting effectively S6 pulse carbines at 24". .

I am using this combo at a big 96 player tourney Ill be at in August. Darkstriders ability to make Railrifles into instant-death machines is...impressive

 Jancoran wrote:

1. "Lack of Versatility". what does that even MEAN when you're talking about a unit that is hard to see, has Anti tank AND anti-personnell and can PIN the enemy with its drones all wrapped into one? I mean what in the world is lacking about that in versatility? Your definition of versatility could perhaps use some review. You go on to say how you can get a specialized (READ: non versatile) assassin to kill tanks instead! You're not wrong that it might work well to kill tanks that way but you make no sense when in one breathe you say their "problem" is versatility only to turn around and say you'd prefer a specialist. Make up your mind as to which one you value. Versatility...or specialization.

I don't see how you view that as versatility. Having the same standard shooting as just about anything else in the army plus two fusion guns is not versatility. It means you have a unit with four burst cannons and two fusion blasters at 200 points. A crisis suit is versatile because it's load out can be any combination of weapons while stealth suits are stuck in two configurations, either all burst cannons or burst cannons and fusion blasters.

2. "Only able to take 1 fusion at normal size and a second if you pay an extra 90 points". Sorry, perhaps read the codex again and notice that those 90 points come with something? Like...three more stealth suits.

And that would make total sense.. if like... there weren't... you know... Crisis suits... which can take... Get this... TWO FUSIONS PER SUIT! There. All your tank killing capacity in a nice and easy 52 point unit. I just saved you 148 points.

3. You minimize his victory because of the opponents codex? Sorry. That's just a pile of Dingo's kidneys.

His victory was a 200 point unit taking down a bare 75 point 5man CSM squad. I didn't minimize his victory, I put it into context. If anything I said something nice about stealth suits in low point games, which is where they perform well against armies that rely on a lot of their options and extras they get.

Savage, It was only a 105pt stealth team to his 90pt unit(upgraded plasma). Just 2 suits and a fusion suit, no other upgrades. As it was a 500pt game i had my Mark'O, a missile side, a drone squad, and 2 minimal FWs.

No amount of nay say though will keep me from taking my stealths, ive had them underperform, more than once, but they tend to balance it out with being pretty freakin awesome in some other games, ive never regretted bringing them, just how i chose to deploy them lol


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Honestly though, that is probably the easiest way to make your stealth suits not get back their points. If you put them in a gakky place(and i feel like a lot of people that decide stealthsuits suck, maybe arent using/deploying them right for that current battle) then they are going to die, and fast.

Something I have been thinking about is how many marker lights one should have in their army. I have been trying thinking about it in terms of ML hits instead of raw number of shots. For example, a Mark' O with Marker Drones will put out many more hits than a comparable number of Pathfinder bodies. To get 5 hits out of the drones you only need 6 bodies, to get the same out of PF you need 10. Each has their pros and cons when it comes to maneuverability, number of wounds, etc.

Anyways, many markerlights are people taking in their armies and where are they getting them from? The two best spots seem like PFs and Markerdrones with a commander, with a Skyray winning when it comes to anti air. What have others found?

I like markerlights sprinkled in 2 or 3 units, at least.

If i'm using a Mark'O with missile pods, in a squad of crisis deathrains/deathshowers, i'll have 6-8 marker drones in that squad as well.

Tag in a sky ray for dual duty - BS4 Markerlights, skyfire, and s8 ap3 missiles, that's 2

The 3rd can be a squadron of 2 tetras, or 5-8 pathfinders. Both garner about the same number of markerlight hits, depending on luck.

Aside from those i haven't experimented with much else, other than running multiple pathfinder units when i'm not using any marker drones and battlesuits.

I like multiple sources, which include a few hefty/reliable/survivable ones.

So ofc I have 3 units of pathfinders (4-5). Two Skyrays (BS4 skyfire ML are just fantastic!), one BS3 drone squad and one BS5 target-lock Fireblade.

Works very well. Towards the end of my games, I'm finding I still have a few ML sources left.

4TheG8erGood wrote:
Something I have been thinking about is how many marker lights one should have in their army. I have been trying thinking about it in terms of ML hits instead of raw number of shots. For example, a Mark' O with Marker Drones will put out many more hits than a comparable number of Pathfinder bodies. To get 5 hits out of the drones you only need 6 bodies, to get the same out of PF you need 10. Each has their pros and cons when it comes to maneuverability, number of wounds, etc.

Anyways, many markerlights are people taking in their armies and where are they getting them from? The two best spots seem like PFs and Markerdrones with a commander, with a Skyray winning when it comes to anti air. What have others found?

I now use a markerSwarm of 7 and then 3 Firesight Marksmen with three Sniper Rifles. Gets you ten total and two targets if its necessary.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
I like markerlights sprinkled in 2 or 3 units, at least.

If i'm using a Mark'O with missile pods, in a squad of crisis deathrains/deathshowers, i'll have 6-8 marker drones in that squad as well.

Tag in a sky ray for dual duty - BS4 Markerlights, skyfire, and s8 ap3 missiles, that's 2

The 3rd can be a squadron of 2 tetras, or 5-8 pathfinders. Both garner about the same number of markerlight hits, depending on luck.

Aside from those i haven't experimented with much else, other than running multiple pathfinder units when i'm not using any marker drones and battlesuits.

It's kind of scary that you discribed exactly what I take in my list. Are you stalking me?

I'm pretty sure most of us have at least glanced at Eldar being a damn fine choice as allies.

I've been musing that a Farseer HQ for sweet psychic re-rolls, jetbikes for fast and durable scoring units for that last-minute objective grab, and BL Warwalkers for ranged AT we now lack. Might even proxy Broads as them to get that proper railgun feel again. :F

But all of this is pretty standard, and I know you've thought about those juicy bodies- I mean allies as well, so share your thoughts on sweet tactics and strategy!

I already have converted Exodite Warwalkers just for that use. I was thinking the same thing as well, 70pts for 2 BS4 BL vs 65[ts for one BS3 TL Heavy Railrifle? Seems easy choice. Think I'll take 2! no more problems with landraiders. I was contimplating using Shadowsun to bring in a unit of warpsiders from outflanking. When they come on the table you can seperate her from the unit, then use your warpjump. If you can string them along and put her back in coherency she can rejoin the unit. Warpjump doesn't trigger dangerous terrain tests, so just warpjump them into terrain and she now gives them 2+ cover saves. She is also useful for extending the range at which they can kill units, so as to maximized your 12" away from enemies. They can all deepstrike if needed. Seems like a very viable unit.

Markos with more than 4 drones are a waste of points, and of a fast attack slot -- IMO. Through play with them, I've found that I never end up using more than 4 or 5 markerlights to kill something, and that's if I'm being extra-generous with BS boosts.

If I wanted a Mark-o, I'd grab 2 Target Lock Bodyguards to go with the Target Lock Commander, and give him a total of 6 marker drones. That way, I also fire 12 MP shots at 36", and can still have 3x8 Pathfinders or 3x2 Tetras.

For Skyfire ML and Mech-meta, 3 Skyrays is amazing, If you need less, the last slot should be 3 HYMP with SMS and as many Missile Drones as leftover points allow -- again in my opinion through playtesting. The JSJ of drones can often help both keep the unit in cover, or absorb some S8 AP2-1 hits, OR give the unit that extra touch of range it needs to at least hit something backfield when your opponent is avoiding them.

I personally run with 2x5 Pathfinders in most of my games, i dont have much need for more of them i feel, and if they are taken down its just 110 points that dissappear and not much else.

If i were to fill my fast attack slots i would possibly have 2x5 and a tetra or a squadron of pirhanas in my fast attack, but i rather have the points on my suits.

I've been using two teams of 3 stealth suits with one fusion target lock and beacon. Drop in one near a target. Use it to drop in shadowsun just within melta range of my target. Then put the other team somewhere where it can do damage. In some cases with the other team. Then use shadowsun to nuke whatever it is i want to kill, stealth suits shoot at whatever else in in range with their (not small) number of BC shots. Then use them as mobile cover for her to block assaults and give her a 2+ in the open