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 CaptObvious wrote:

Kavalion wrote:
I'd probably rather give the outflank to Hellhounds than Leman Russes if your mission is to wipe out a crappy objective-holding squad.

I've had people suggest this. If I was certain that I'd always be up against some weak infantry, it's the obvious choice. I don't usually roll with Hellhounds, because they stress me out.

I like the Leman chassis because it's AV14, so only high powered weapons can hurt it. You need a dedicated anti-vehicle unit to crack a Leman. When there are so many things that can take out AV12, and the only way to protect them is to bring more, it stresses me out.

The Hellhound's flame attack is amazing, and it's speed is also amazing. I'll give it that. But the Eradicator has cover denial, just like a flame attack, but from 36" away. It doesn't auto hit like flame does, but I don't put the vehicle itself at risk by advancing in the open. When I feel safe, and my enemy has nowhere to hide, it helps me relax.

The Demolisher doesn't have cover denial, but it will deny armor, and instantly kill multi wound models. So that makes me feel good about shooting it, because it denies the enemy something that they rely on.

All in all, I think the Hellhound is ideal for ripping up infantry. The Leman can't compete with that. However, the Leman chassis and all it's various loadouts afford more durability and save denial across the board, for anything from terminators to pathfinders. Since I don't know what I'll have to kill, I like knowing that I'm safe from most weapons, and when I get direct hits, models are getting removed.

Chem dogs though, right?

right?

2+ wounding AP3... 3 of them could shave 3 hit points off a Wraithknight...

 Scipio Africanus wrote:


Chem dogs though, right?

right?

2+ wounding AP3... 3 of them could shave 3 hit points off a Wraithknight...

So you'd spend 360+ points on something which *might* conceivably take 3 wounds off of something which cost them less, assuming you are incredibly lucky and the enemy doesn't just kill them straight away? Very clever.

Tactical_Genius wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:


Chem dogs though, right?

right?

2+ wounding AP3... 3 of them could shave 3 hit points off a Wraithknight...

So you'd spend 360+ points on something which *might* conceivably take 3 wounds off of something which cost them less, assuming you are incredibly lucky and the enemy doesn't just kill them straight away? Very clever.

I thought we were talking about giving them Outflank. If the wraithknight is in the backfield, you can pop off 3 wounds easy.

Also, it's 400 points that you're shooting at the wraithknight. The turn those bane wolves drop, you WILL kill that wraithknight. (It has 6 wounds, right? you only have 3 more to deal with.)

Of course, 300 points worth of ratlings would get the job done - 30 shots, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 1.67 rends at that. if it doesn't have fortune up (which is a faulty assumption), you should do 4.445 wounds. Now, I'm not telling you that an alphastrike 30 ratling squad is a viable idea. I'm just throwing ideas around for consideration.

IT is worth noting ratling range is not of concern. They may infiltrate, meaning they can assure themselves of being as close as 18". You only need them to be 36" away.

Take how you wan't but usually I field my Ig in 'Groups' as in 1 group includes :

1x Lrmbt (base no upgrades)

30 man combined squad with 3x GLs/or Flamers (cheapness is good, no power weapons your going quantity over quality)
w/ commissar
PCS with whatever you want

2x chimeras (used as support for the LRMBT, one on either side, no troops inside, decent light tank for 55pts)

I usually field 3 of these, and push forward in a triangular patter, one on each flank and one in the center, the enemy usually can focus on one, but its generally an overload.

Fill in the rest of the points with whatever fits your fancy, I field stormtroopers for precise strikes usually 2 squads of 5x stormie with 2x melta for high AV vehicles

Throw in 2 CCS with Lascannon and MoO for some added fun.

 Ailaros wrote:
The problem with outflanking russes is that you're pretty much driving them right into melta gun range (which can still hurt AV14, trust me on that), and straight into close combat range (where they REALLY don't want to be). The scouting them forward thing could be useful, but I'd only bother taking it on punishers with multimeltas. A russ with any serious range to its guns should probably be hanging back a bit.

I realize AV14 isn't impenetrable, I lost 3 in a squad once. Which is why I'm outflanking them, so they don't sit on the line, fodder for bike mounted multi-meltas, storm ravens, and powerklaws. If it turns out there are some backfield anti-armor weapons, I'll avoid them, either by opting to have my tanks on the line, or finding a safe place to outflank. On the off chance that the dice screw me, I can still outflank back toward my end. Really though, where on the table are your tanks safe from bikes and fliers ? ... you do your best, that's all you can do.

I see what you're saying, that if the Leman has the range, why not use it? The Demolisher has a fairly short range, and the Eradicator doesn't operate from across the table like a LRBT. I wouldn't reserve a LRBT, or anything with > 48" range.

One of the advantages of outflanking anything, is when you are side-on to an enemy, they run into LOS issues with their own units. They are firing across their own line, so it's a combination of terrain, friendly vehicles and infantry, mucking up their firing lanes. This configuration allows me to pick manageable targets without retaliation from the entire force. Any attempt they make to change position, will only give me more targets, or cause them to withdraw into cover.

I understand that some players are prepared for a flanking maneuver. Luckily, I'm prepared for them to be prepared, and I can just as easily not flank them. The Astropath gives me 2+ for reserves to arrive, and 90% for the flank that I choose. The point being, when I choose to flank, I can do so with some degree of accuracy. Scout adds a lot of versatility on the table, it's one of those rules that is hard to math hammer, because it's not a stat.

Regarding all the posts about Bane Wolves and Hell Hounds. I'm still not really into them. I tried the chem tank once. It went flat out, and then died. Again, I stick to my argument, they are too specialized, and not durable enough. They could turn the game in a single round of shooting, given they were able to outflank into some light infantry, but it's only going to work in that situation, so now you're odds of winning depend on that situation happening. The Leman rarely has to hide, and has a threat range much greater than a Hell Hound (even the demolisher has 24", 30" if you count a 6" move). So the Leman doesn't rely as much on things happening in it's favor.

I've seen plenty of IG guys using the Hell Hound, so it's works for someone. I don't like it. Mostly because Lootas.

This might be obvious to veteran IG players, but we have all these units with Scout and Infiltrate, which help us get to where we're going, without actually advancing under fire. Can I use this to get into position with a vehicle or a squad, without getting shot to bits? It seems like I can.

Yes, You could try a harkerstar.

Since you can place fortifications anywhere on table, try placing an ADL with a quad gun a little closer to their line, about halfway up the table.

Then,infiltrate into the fortification with a veteran squad with forward sentries + harker, load them up with plasma and a lascannon (or heavy weapon of your choice), and throw a lord commisar in there to man the quad gun and make them stick.

You've got lots of strength 7 shots (four at twin-linked bs 5, and 3 or 6 at AP 2) a lascannon shot, and a heavy bolter all rocking a 2+ cover save 18inches in your opponents face turn 1 ready to unload. Heck, if you really want to lay it on the line, put the agies 12 inches away of their deployment, get first turn, and then move the vets up into rapid-fire range.

Of course, they are going to melt at the first flamer that gets in range, or helldrake that flies over, or artillery template that lands smack-dab in the middle of the ADL, but the firepower they put out will demand your opponent's attention, and the 2+ cover will make them resilient enough. If you want even more firepower in the face of your opponent turn 1, take more vet squads with forward sentries, pack them into camo-cloaked chimeras, and infiltrate them behind harker's ADL. 3+ AV 12 bunkers will grant even more mid-range firepower, and THEN if you opponent blows up the chimeras, those vets have a 3+ cover in the crater that was their chimera. If your opponent tries to castle up and outshoot, they're going to have a bad time. If they try to leave cover and approach, they're going to be shredded. -- Camo cloaks doesn't grant infiltrate, but placing the harkerstar in a chimera is a option too.


While it won't help you outmanuver outflankers, the infiltrated alpha-firepower will help cripple your opponent's main force, so you can better focus your firepower on his outflankers later.

It's not unbeatable by any stretch, and the trick lies in deploying and placing the fortification well.

But, this does rob your main gunline of an ADL, and it does cost a fair amount of points.
----

You could also try stormtroopers, I find that a 10-man squad with two flamers is great for deep-striking and clearing light infantry behind an ADL or just off of objective. They do okay against space marines as well. Also, their re-rollabe scatter dice really helps to put the flamers in range, and their 4+ armor gives them a tiny bit of staying power.

 kestril wrote:
Yes, You could try a harkerstar.

I like this idea, I've always like Harker. Though I think the greatest threat they will face is assault bikes, or any assault unit. Enemy turn 1, assaulting on the Aegis makes it that much easier for them to reach the squad, and a Lord Commissar may stop them from running, but he won't stop them from getting killed. Tricked out Harker squad in a chimera seems like a lot of fun though. Infiltrate them in LOS cover, beyond the enemy threat range, then drive 6", disembark to 12" and shoot plasma and lasguns at targets 36" from where you started, plus Harker's heavy bolter. It could be cool, but then they'd probably die. As I recall, Luke Skywalker lived after he blew up the death star, so a Harker Star attack isn't quite the same thing. I'm not sure the guard have a Death Star, more like suicide bombers.

I've built my mech heavy list, and I think it's solid enough for my meta. I'm working on another list that focuses on elite infantry squads like Harker, or Bastonne. I'm running into major problems there, because the more upgrades I pump into these vet squads and storm troopers, the more it's going to hurt when they go down. I haven't succeeded in creating anything remotely solid in the realm of 'elite infantry' and I don't think I ever will. Except maybe 7 chimera plasma spam. The best guard unit puts out a lot of damage, but is less survivable Space Marine Scouts, and every marine player I know complains about terrible their scouts are. I think that makes a statement regarding the survivability of the guard infantry. It's the guard mech that brings that element.