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Hey guys. I'm trying to figure out some options for my Guard army, to get them forward and creating more threat.

I generally play at the back as a gunline, so I don't really move. The problem there is that the enemy can easily overload a flank. If the gunline performs well, I can outshoot them. Otherwise I'm cooked.

In all my various attempts at playing forward, I've had a lot of AV12 vehicles blown up at midfield. True AV12 spam works ok. I realize that a lot of guard players use AV12 spam, so I'm considering it one of my options (but I don't love it). I can force the issue with chimeras and devil dogs, and put the pressure on the enemy early on. The downside to this is losing troops in chimera explosions, and putting all my threat into single models. Even if I have an army of them, one pen and there is very little chance that the vehicle will deliver it's troops or continue to fight, so that's a 1 shot kill on a 100+ pt model. I know people run mechanized builds all the time, but I'm not that stoked about AV12 spam.

If I use Creed to run my infantry gunline, he can also use Tactical Genius to outflank a unit. This appeals to me more. If AV12 is the best the guard can do to get up the field, it kinda sucks. So why drive up the field if you can just arrive on the enemy's flank? I've actually tried this and it worked great, I don't know why I never went back to it.

This might be obvious to veteran IG players, but we have all these units with Scout and Infiltrate, which help us get to where we're going, without actually advancing under fire. Can I use this to get into position with a vehicle or a squad, without getting shot to bits? It seems like I can.

Back to Creed. He affords me the ability to put infantry across the table, who would never make it there on their own. I could also use it on a squadron of tanks, or a vendetta, it all depends on the task at hand.

Here's what I'm getting at. I need to get around the table and survive, for the express purpose of killing enemy units. I already use 2 vendettas, they survive amazingly well, and are perfect for the kind of mobility I'm talking about, but they can't threaten an army. I need weapons and troops in places that I can't normally get them. I'm considering Storm Troopers, Scout Sentinels, Creed, Astropath, Al Rahem, Marbo and Harker as possible additions (1 or 2 of these things, not the entire list). I'm most drawn to Creed, given that he can grant Scout to ANY unit, plus some really great abilities to manage infantry. Then I can keep the weapons I already use, which are great, but use them more often, on targets that they were made to shoot at.

Meh. That's my thinking at the moment.

Other forward strategies?

I could go with 9 fliers, but that's a bit wacky for my tastes.

I love the idea of using allies, but haven't had that much success. I feel like I'm taking an awful lot of points out of my own army, so that I can get a taste of something else in there ... does it actually work? I had marines running around by themselves at the end, after the IG got roasted. I'll have to try again.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Firstly, you're making a common mistake - mechvets are a defensive weapon. Even with their extra speed and durability, their short range special weapon goodness is really only good (and by good I mean very good) at reacting to things that get close. They're not designed to be charged forwards as an offensive weapon. The closest I've gotten to this was combining chimera and hellhound-chassis spam, but even then, the chimeras were a defensive weapon to cover threats against the hellhounds and devil dogs, rather than an offensive weapon in their own right.

If you want to really get lots of stuff upfield, I've noticed that there are two main ways about it. The first is using special mobility options. Like you said, stormtroopers, or al'rahem/harker, or vendettas, etc. The biggest problem is that they pay in killing power inefficiency in order to have that kind of field presence. Don't get me wrong, you can work miracles with high-mobility units, but with every single one of them, there's a catch. Some drawback(s) that your opponent can exploit, so you really need to make sure that they're really well supported so that you don't lose those vendettas to interceptor/skyfire weapons, or have al'rahem or stormtroopers wind up stranded, far from the enemy.

The other way to get your stuff upfield is with alpha strike killing power. Starting on turn 1, you apply long-range force and simply destroy your opponent's ability to kill off your stuff. Your units can be weak and still advance if there isn't anything that's going to stop them on your opponent's side of the table. In this case, you're going to want to abandon things like fliers and outflankers and focus more heavily on things like russes and artillery and squad-borne heavy weapons. This comes with the added benefit of being stronger on defense on those missions where you don't WANT to get a lot of stuff upfield, and shutting down your opponent's killing power quickly is always a good thing.

Once those long fangs or broadsides are put down, then those chimera that you were driving forward to their doom can then drive forward in relative safety to deliver their cargo.

Thanks Ailaros! I always appreciate your comments.

I agree with everything you said. I still struggle to pull off some of these strategies, maybe because I'm limited by the models I own, or I don't commit to the good ideas and see them through. Who knows.

So, my tanks get lots of targets, the vendettas and vets get plenty of targets, but I find the least used unit is my platoon at the back. They did a fine job the other day, tarpitting some terminators for several rounds of CC, after killing a few of them with lasgun fire. Still, I'd like to get them more shooting targets with their heavy weapons. I think Creed can facilitate that, either by Tactical Genius to deliver them to a flank, or giving his 4 orders if they stay back. I could spread out the squads more, granting me more firing lanes.

Also, I think I might ditch the Aegis for a game, and see how I do. The problem with the Aegis, is that it keeps bullets out, but it also keeps the infantry in. It helps the enemy's assault range, so it kinda feels like a trap more than a fortress. I box up my infantry so I can shoot overwatch 1 time, and then die in CC. I think I can do better than that.

Thanks for the comment, always appreciated!

You could take a dedicated close combat unit to counter charge with. GK terminators or paladins can fill this role well because they can lay down some good fire while your opponent closes the gap. Even a strike squad can do well as a counter charge unit and warp quake can keep out the deep strikers.

try this http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/524199.page with your ADL, and only keep your CCS inside...give the vets flamers to protect them against being charged and you may be able to accomplish what you are looking for.

CaptObvious wrote: I find the least used unit is my platoon at the back.

DarknessEternal just recently spouted a maxim that I'm finding myself dangerously tempted to just completely agree with. He said "Troops don't win games, they only prevent you from losing".

The longer I've gone in 6th edition, the more I'm finding out that, contrary to what you'd think, given the missions, what we're actually living in is much more of a 4th ed world where sort of the only thing that matters is how much killing power you lay down, and how quickly. I've had MANY games where it was decided on secondaries, either because nobody had any objectives, or because both myself and my opponent had one objective that we held really, really well, and then we didn't really control any of the others. Throw on the fact that half the game aren't REALLY objective games (Will, Purge, and Relic), and that non-troops score on two of the others (Scouring and Big Guns), and the idea that you need troops to be scoring units is actually kind of... worthless.

As such, spending points on units that are good at holding objectives, but have terrible killing power is actually a net drain to your list. Shepard what scoring units you brought well, and you really NEVER need more than two troops choices, unless, of course, you can find a way of making troops choices very, very killy.

So what's the moral of the story here? I think it's that the answer to your do-nothing infantry platoons is to stop taking infantry platoons. Given that guard platoon killing power didn't really go up that much in 6th ed, while their durability most of the time went way down (especially vis a vis going anywhere outside of behind an aegis), well... there kind of isn't a point to them. The only way I was able to make my infantry platoons worth bringing was when I gave them all lascannons, so that they could actually kill stuff.

I know it's not exactly all that positive of a message if you're trying to play foot guard, but let's be honest, most foot guard lists used some vehicular support anyways. Plus, just think about fielding 6 or 7 leman russes in an 1850 point game. That's got to make you a little happy, right?

 Ailaros wrote:

CaptObvious wrote: I find the least used unit is my platoon at the back.

DarknessEternal just recently spouted a maxim that I'm finding myself dangerously tempted to just completely agree with. He said "Troops don't win games, they only prevent you from losing".

The longer I've gone in 6th edition, the more I'm finding out that, contrary to what you'd think, given the missions, what we're actually living in is much more of a 4th ed world where sort of the only thing that matters is how much killing power you lay down, and how quickly. I've had MANY games where it was decided on secondaries, either because nobody had any objectives, or because both myself and my opponent had one objective that we held really, really well, and then we didn't really control any of the others. Throw on the fact that half the game aren't REALLY objective games (Will, Purge, and Relic), and that non-troops score on two of the others (Scouring and Big Guns), and the idea that you need troops to be scoring units is actually kind of... worthless.

As such, spending points on units that are good at holding objectives, but have terrible killing power is actually a net drain to your list. Shepard what scoring units you brought well, and you really NEVER need more than two troops choices, unless, of course, you can find a way of making troops choices very, very killy.

So what's the moral of the story here? I think it's that the answer to your do-nothing infantry platoons is to stop taking infantry platoons. Given that guard platoon killing power didn't really go up that much in 6th ed, while their durability most of the time went way down (especially vis a vis going anywhere outside of behind an aegis), well... there kind of isn't a point to them. The only way I was able to make my infantry platoons worth bringing was when I gave them all lascannons, so that they could actually kill stuff.

I know it's not exactly all that positive of a message if you're trying to play foot guard, but let's be honest, most foot guard lists used some vehicular support anyways. Plus, just think about fielding 6 or 7 leman russes in an 1850 point game. That's got to make you a little happy, right?

I have been saying this for months now.

All of the lists I've been writing up of late have only 2 troops which are tough enough to not give up first blood and can put out a decent amount of damage or they are just down right killy. The rest of the army has tough durable units that can put out a lot of damage. Weak units are still really good as long as they can operate when comming in off reserve. Set up your army to win secondary objectives and make primary objectives plan B. Sometimes you are better off contesting your opponents objectives rather than taking them. Shunt moves??? Gotta love em

 Ailaros wrote:
As such, spending points on units that are good at holding objectives, but have terrible killing power is actually a net drain to your list.

This depends very heavily on what kind of game you're talking about. Strict book missions with just win/lose scoring? Sure, lock down your "home" objective and just kill your opponent for a narrow victory. But if you're playing in a tournament where margin of victory counts it's not enough to win by 1 VP on secondaries, you need a decisive win on objectives and that means lots of scoring units.

The general rule is a good one though, get 1-2 durable scoring units (Sabre platoons, Harker squad with quad gun, etc) to absolutely ensure your "home" objectives are secure, put another 1-2 scoring units in Vendettas for a late-game grab on one of the objectives outside your deployment zone, and spend the rest of your points on killing the enemy.

I recently saw an idea by GreatBigTree, over on the 40konline forums. Probably going to try something similar, as I am getting sick of letting the enemy have all the deployment zone rampaging fun.

85 - Lord Commissar: Power Fist

175 - PCS: Captain Al, Vox, 1x Plasma Gun, Chimera
265 - ISQ [30]: 2x PAxe, 3x MB, 3x PG, 3x AC, Vox
120 - SWS: 3x Meltagun, Chimera
120 - SWS: 3x Meltagun, Chimera

765 - Total

The SWSs jump in the chimeras when coming in from reserve, which are bought for the infantry squads. The commissar keeps the blob in line, and his aura helps with pinning when the chimeras are destroyed. The commissar is probably forced to be your warlord though, assuming you are also taking a CCS with astropath and a platoon/ADL to start on the board.

Other than that, I have grown fond of Marbo's ability to snipe with a demo charge. Drop him in cover and cause havoc.

At 1850 you can take 3 vendettas, 3 manticores, 2x50 blobs, 2 rune priests to lead them with 5 backfield grey hunters, a guard hq of choice, and a few upgrades like melta bombs on your blob sarges. This works great, as the wolves fill almost all the holes in the list. You have anti tank, anti flyer, anti psyker, anti infantry, mobile scoring units in the vendettas, and a death beam versus necrons, tyranids and tau with the jaws power on the 2 priests.

You can take 2x Earthshaker Gun Carriages for less than the cost of a Manticore. Its more foot based and packs a bit better punch vs MEQ.

 Ailaros wrote:
I know it's not exactly all that positive of a message if you're trying to play foot guard, but let's be honest, most foot guard lists used some vehicular support anyways. Plus, just think about fielding 6 or 7 leman russes in an 1850 point game. That's got to make you a little happy, right?

Happiness is for weddings and baby showers, this is war! I think you're exactly right though.

I'm going to try to squeeze some use out of all the infantry I've put together, but in a supporting role (probably veteran squads, or a platoon squad with lots of HWS). It's funny, my last opponent was saying this too, that I've got a lot of points in a platoon that doesn't do much.

Thanks again.

One thing I've found helpful for slogging a platoon up field is to take two or three LRBT (or variants) and arrange them in a wedge, moving up with your guardsmen behind them. This used to be a pretty standard infantry tactic, until the introduction of the Abrahms MBT, you can't walk behind those (the jet turbine will cook you).

Basically, you aim the whole formation at an objective, advance, and when you get there the guardsmen set up camp while the tanks cruise forward.

maceria wrote:
One thing I've found helpful for slogging a platoon up field is to take two or three LRBT (or variants) and arrange them in a wedge, moving up with your guardsmen behind them. This used to be a pretty standard infantry tactic, until the introduction of the Abrahms MBT, you can't walk behind those (the jet turbine will cook you).

Basically, you aim the whole formation at an objective, advance, and when you get there the guardsmen set up camp while the tanks cruise forward.

This tactic works very well especially against the new Tau (as long as they are not running x3 hammerheads) but its also effective against alot of armies, form a wall of A14 and dare your opponent to kill it. Along with this tactic I have seen a friend of mine spam leman russes and take Azrael and some DA scouts for allies. He places Azrael in a blob squad of x50 guardsmen and walks them up behind the taks, thats x50 guys that are fearless and have a 4+ ward save. Put a PCS behind them for the "First Rank Fire" order and watch stuff die.

I know not everyone agrees with this, but have you considered taking two or three squads of Penal Legionnaires? They are not great, but considering you want mobility, they are perfect.
The advantage of these guys above the normal Guardsmen is that they can outflank. This is a bit risky, because they might end up on the wrong side of the field and they might not be as good as you want them to be. However, there are a lot of them and if you get lucky, you might get a nice special ability. (Only gunslingers is nice, the others aren't that great, but can be useful when you need to push the enemy off the objectives.

Hope this helps.

In my mind I've tried to get platoons to work, but I never quite get there.

This is how my thinking usually goes:

Mathhammering it turns out a basic squad is a pretty decent infantry killer for its point. With FRFSRF its even a bit better than decent.

A few problems: 1) Force concentration. With so many models your firepower will be spread out. 2) Without upgrades PCS and PiS are very specialized units. They are only good at killing other infantry at 24". 3) FRFSRF is a bit too fickle with out a vox (and the vox is too expensive unless you blob out).

If you start upgrading squads they quickly become below average jack-of-all-trades. Typical outfit of a lascannon and a meltagun increases the cost with 60% meaning that even if it is now a more killy unit, for its points it is less resilient (you can afford less such units) and a lot worse at its speciality of killing infantry (you may kill slightly more infantry models at 24", but cost went up 60%). And if you fire at a hard target, a single lascannon shot at 80 pts is not very impressive either...

At this point you might think about protecting them with a defence line or chimera, but this will only further dilute your killing power.

With these things in mind I think the key to running platoons is to keep them really cheap. You also need to keep moving (it will take you a full 5 turns to get into the opponent's DZ if you are firing your guns) so I've been thinking you should skip the heavy weapons, but you can't run platoons with no upgrade since they are too specialized.

The best I've come up with is something like 4 platoons containing PCS (single melta) + 2 PiS (single melta). Run the PCS in cover of the the PiSs and do FRFSRF. That would be like 12 scoring units, 12 meltaguns and 100 infantry models for just less than 650 pts.

That doesn't look too bad until you realize that for the same points you get 40 melta vets in chimeras carrying the same number of melta guns (but BS 4), protected by an AV 12 hull, supported by 8 heavy weapons (chimeras)...

the point that we must also consider in this debate is how many units you will have on the table.

its one thing to have the killer units, but they might not do much if you're deployment zone is a bit crowded- a common problem when using a platoon, its a tad unwieldy and ends up being spread out and buggers up the deployment of the vehicles.

mech guard oddly in my view an army of 'balance' they can defend quite well (chimera bunkers ineed...) and also go on the offense provided you have trusty russes to be the spearhead. A wall of AV14 tends to cause target overload not to mention the pieplates tend to casue many to run for cover

just my humble opinion

Right, and that's really the trick here. Really, support units are more or less only judged by their killing power, and that has to be taken into consideration in the lens of time as well.

For example, as often as not, a lascannon that starts the game on the table is worth two that don't. If you've got a melta stormie squad, for example, that doesn't arrive until turn 3, then you've got to balance the utility of, at some amount of risk, shooting a pair of meltaguns at melta range possibly into rear armor and without cover against the utility of spending those same amount of points spent on something that started shooting right away.

For another example, take the vendetta. Let's say it starts the game off the board and then arrives turn two, and then shoots twice before it has to leave the board to have any useful targets, and then shows up on turn 5 to shoot once more, and then the game ends.

Now, that's a lot of assumptions built in, including, for example, that the vendetta doesn't get instantly shot down by interceptor fire before it even gets the chance to shoot once, or that the opponent doesn't have a way of disrupting reserves, or that the vendetta shows up as early as it could, rather than as late. Even in this situation, though, you've got to compare the 3x TLLC of the vendetta shooting three times against 130 points spent on regular lascannons shooting five. It doesn't matter which does more damage in a single round of shooting, if one of them gets half the number of rounds of shooting.

Furthermore, timeliness is also an issue. Destroying a predator on turn 7 is likely going to be pointless. It probably long already killed its points back and made a serious impact on the game. It can retire with grace, even if the method is by getting blown up by something. On the other hand, blowing something up on turn 1 will mean up to 7 turns where the vehicle didn't get to do ANYTHING. Killing that same predator early will have a much bigger impact on the game, because you have to include everything that that predator DIDN'T kill on every subsequent turn, and to consider all of the things that those units that the predator didn't kill killed, and so on.

As such, there is a pretty heavy burden placed on units that rely on mobility to improve their killing power, as they have to deal with having fewer turns to do damage, and have the usefulness of their damage wane over time, much less their vulnerability to specific counters (castling against deepstrikers, interceptor, etc.).

Not to say that the long-range shooting is the end-all-be-all, and that there's no reason to take high-mobility units, but you do need to understand the risks you're taking when you use them.

My tactics for IG are very different to the ones being posted here.

I don't use veterans. Ever. IGs main advantage is that you should always outnumber your enemy in both infantry and tanks.

Infantry platoons and Lemans Russes castle up behind an ADL with alrahm outflanking a full platoon taking the enemy by surprise. Very few opponents expect you to outflank 50+ men and therefor even if they know you have outflankers they will be out of position to deal with the threat.

Well, they'd be surprised the first time. The second time they'd react accordingly and butcher the outflankers before they had a chance to do anything useful.

Meanwhile, the rest of your list is stuck as a gunline, and not even necessarily that good of a one to boot.

The idea of having more bodies than your opponent has bullets doesn't work very well in a rules edition and codex environment that has never given you more, and more powerful bullets. The first time you see 80 guardsmen killed in two turns (which has happened to me more than once) will be the first time you understand that the foot horde isn't what it used to be.

loner wrote:
I know not everyone agrees with this, but have you considered taking two or three squads of Penal Legionnaires? They are not great, but considering you want mobility, they are perfect.
The advantage of these guys above the normal Guardsmen is that they can outflank.

I totally forgot about the Penal Legion, thanks for reminding me! I'd have to figure out an appropriate use for them, obviously outflanking is great. I'd probably use them for last minute objective taking, because they're pretty weak, and don't do much killing. It could work in the right list.

I edited my main list to exclude the platoon, which I replaced with veterans. So, from 70 men, down to 45, but BS4 LCs and meltas, plus orders from Creed should crack some armor. As previously mentioned, the platoon was dead weight. In most games the only shooting they did was in overwatch. On rare occasions where I was able to shoot within rapid fire range, it was great, but most opponents don't allow that to happen.

With the points I saved from ditching the platoon, I added a demolisher to join the eradicator in a squadron. The pair of tanks will outflank via Creed's rule. Then I have a LRBT and a colossus at the back, and 2 vendettas with veterans for late objective taking.

So I hope I've traded up to something more threatening. I've included an Astropath, which will hopefully get things moving along and put my tanks where they need to be.

I realize that by reserving units, I'm not maximizing my damage output from turn 1. I'm not applying maximum force to minimize retaliation, and this is problematic in the eyes of most guard players who rely on this principle. It's what people fear about the guard, getting blown to bits early on, and for the rest of the game. This is not the first time I've run a mech build, I've run 4 tanks and 2 artillery in the past, but when alpha strikes arrive, the battle takes place inside my own ranks, and things unravel very quickly (a chain reaction of explosions killing infantry, templates scattering ... just really terrible). This is largely due to the fact that the table is short and I can't move. So I'm hoping to afford myself more turns of shooting, by dodging the alpha strikes, and pushing some threat of my own into the enemy's lines. I see guys leaving behind tiny garbage squads to defend their home objectives, so I'm betting 2 Russ tanks will cause some panic and hopefully create some chaos.

edits - sentence didn't make sense

 CaptObvious wrote:
I totally forgot about the Penal Legion, thanks for reminding me! I'd have to figure out an appropriate use for them, obviously outflanking is great. I'd probably use them for last minute objective taking, because they're pretty weak, and don't do much killing. It could work in the right list.

The problem with that plan is that you can't voluntarily keep them in reserve, and once they're on the table they're a fragile unit with minimal offensive power. Having them alive at the end of the game to claim objectives is not very likely unless you've got so much of an advantage elsewhere that you've pretty much won the game already anyway. The only time there's a "right list" for them is when you're trying to do something like get 2x LRBTs into a 500 point game and can't afford to equip veteran squads properly.

I forgot to add - Creed grants Scout to 1 unit.

That means, as an alternative to outflanking, I can also drive the Demolisher past my deployment line, then another 6" on my turn, and be in range very early in game. So that's a Colossus, LRBT, Eradicator, Demolisher and some LCs firing first turn. It's not like having a massive artillery battery level the opponent, but it's one way to move the fight toward the enemy early on. They're AV14, or out of LOS firing indirectly, so they should hang out for another turn or two.

There are plenty of other ways to utilize these tanks to help one another. Meh, stuff for me to think about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 CaptObvious wrote:
I totally forgot about the Penal Legion, thanks for reminding me! I'd have to figure out an appropriate use for them, obviously outflanking is great. I'd probably use them for last minute objective taking, because they're pretty weak, and don't do much killing. It could work in the right list.

The problem with that plan is that you can't voluntarily keep them in reserve, and once they're on the table they're a fragile unit with minimal offensive power. Having them alive at the end of the game to claim objectives is not very likely unless you've got so much of an advantage elsewhere that you've pretty much won the game already anyway. The only time there's a "right list" for them is when you're trying to do something like get 2x LRBTs into a 500 point game and can't afford to equip veteran squads properly.

Ha! Ok, I pretty much agree with this. Good point.

I'd probably rather give the outflank to Hellhounds than Leman Russes if your mission is to wipe out a crappy objective-holding squad.

Kavalion wrote:
I'd probably rather give the outflank to Hellhounds than Leman Russes if your mission is to wipe out a crappy objective-holding squad.

I've had people suggest this. If I was certain that I'd always be up against some weak infantry, it's the obvious choice. I don't usually roll with Hellhounds, because they stress me out.

I like the Leman chassis because it's AV14, so only high powered weapons can hurt it. You need a dedicated anti-vehicle unit to crack a Leman. When there are so many things that can take out AV12, and the only way to protect them is to bring more, it stresses me out.

The Hellhound's flame attack is amazing, and it's speed is also amazing. I'll give it that. But the Eradicator has cover denial, just like a flame attack, but from 36" away. It doesn't auto hit like flame does, but I don't put the vehicle itself at risk by advancing in the open. When I feel safe, and my enemy has nowhere to hide, it helps me relax.

The Demolisher doesn't have cover denial, but it will deny armor, and instantly kill multi wound models. So that makes me feel good about shooting it, because it denies the enemy something that they rely on.

All in all, I think the Hellhound is ideal for ripping up infantry. The Leman can't compete with that. However, the Leman chassis and all it's various loadouts afford more durability and save denial across the board, for anything from terminators to pathfinders. Since I don't know what I'll have to kill, I like knowing that I'm safe from most weapons, and when I get direct hits, models are getting removed.

The problem with outflanking russes is that you're pretty much driving them right into melta gun range (which can still hurt AV14, trust me on that), and straight into close combat range (where they REALLY don't want to be). The scouting them forward thing could be useful, but I'd only bother taking it on punishers with multimeltas. A russ with any serious range to its guns should probably be hanging back a bit.

And as for penal legionnaires, they're awful. You're paying the same price as a squad of vets for -1BS, and NOTHING BUT LASGUNS. 10 squishy guardsmen with no killing power. That can't charge the turn they come off the board. Honestly, I consider them one of the worst units in the entire game at the moment. If you want to have outflanking scoring units, adding harker to a vet squad, or adding al'rahem to a platoon will be a much, MUCH better buy.

Bane wolves with chem cannon and Heavy Flamers are far better to outflank than hellhounds. A squad of two was a good buy if running creed in 5th. I haven't tried it in 6th but I think it would have a pretty similar effect. I use to annilate long fangs doing this quite often. I did also run an army that could start entirly in reserve or on the board which can't be done anymore.

Don't ignore the fact that Al'raham's platoon can take chimeras as well and sometimes those massed ammount of multi-lasers can be pretty good vs side armour and Al'Rahems squad can work well with both melta or plasma guns.

 Sinji wrote:
Bane wolves with chem cannon and Heavy Flamers are far better to outflank than hellhounds.

Not really. You lose too much by having zero range on the main gun, the Hellhound is probably doing more damage even to MEQs just because it's hitting more of them with the template.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sinji wrote:
Bane wolves with chem cannon and Heavy Flamers are far better to outflank than hellhounds.

Not really. You lose too much by having zero range on the main gun, the Hellhound is probably doing more damage even to MEQs just because it's hitting more of them with the template.

I actually thought this was the case for awhile as well but when you factor in the hull heay flamer also shooting they put down a lot more wounds (Some of those being AP3 and poisined 2+ which is great vs Nurgle or bike squads). However as stated before I haven't used that tactic since 5th ed and the changes to moving and shooting with fast vehicles may have fixed this problem. In 5th the Chem Cannon was a defensive weapon because its S1 but now weapon strength makes no difference to moving or shooting weapons.

Who are you playing against where opponents are leaving their troops in tightly-clustered lines parallel to the side edges of the table within 15" of said board edges?

That's the only way that you're doing any serious damage with this loadout. Seems like your opponents would have to be pretty clueless for it to work consistently.