Do we still need forge world in tournament play?

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**Peregrine**

Blackmoor wrote:
Some people go to tournaments to play some games of 40k and do not have any expectations.

Some people go to tournaments to compete at the highest levels.

FW has an impact on the later and not so much on the former.

Nonsense. If I go to a tournament to play some games of 40k then banning FW has a huge impact on me. It's the difference between playing some games of 40k and finding something else to do that weekend instead of attending an event where I am clearly not welcome.

**OverwatchCNC**

Peregrine wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:
Some people go to tournaments to play some games of 40k and do not have any expectations.

Some people go to tournaments to compete at the highest levels.

FW has an impact on the later and not so much on the former.

Nonsense. If I go to a tournament to play some games of 40k then banning FW has a huge impact on me. It's the difference between playing some games of 40k and finding something else to do that weekend instead of attending an event where I am clearly not welcome.

But you don't go to major tournaments to play 40k so it has zero impact on you.

**SoloFalcon1138**

I don't recall Forgeworld being a necessity for tournament play at all. So what is the point of this thread?

**OverwatchCNC**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I don't recall Forgeworld being a necessity for tournament play at all. So what is the point of this thread?

Did you read the OP? Blackmoor laid out his intentions with this thread pretty clearly, whether you agree with him or not.

**SoloFalcon1138**

yes and I just re-read it. there really was no necessity to have Forgeworld in tournaments and I really see no reason to bring them in unless it is a special tournament.

**OverwatchCNC**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
yes and I just re-read it. there really was no necessity to have Forgeworld in tournaments and I really see no reason to bring them in unless it is a special tournament.

While I completely agree with the second part of your statement the purpose is to illustrate that many of the reasons given by TOs and other in favor of including FW are either gone or obsolete in some way.

**Peregrine**

OverwatchCNC wrote:
But you don't go to major tournaments to play 40k so it has zero impact on you.

Of course it has an impact on me. I want to go to major tournaments to play 40k, but the people running them keep saying "you are not welcome".

OverwatchCNC wrote:
While I completely agree with the second part of your statement the purpose is to illustrate that many of the reasons given by TOs and other in favor of including FW are either gone or obsolete in some way.

Well, many of the less important ones. The OP conveniently neglects the best reason, that GW has said that FW is part of the game and house rules that arbitrarily ban options that an individual TO doesn't like are bad. Just like all the comp-heavy tournaments that were laughed at (for good reasons) in 5th.

**Enigwolf**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
I don't recall Forgeworld being a necessity for tournament play at all. So what is the point of this thread?

The premise of "need" has been long dropped from this discussion - you don't "need" anything in this context. You don't need Forge World, you don't need codices, you don't need to play 40k at all.

**JWhex**

Peregrine wrote:
OverwatchCNC wrote:
But you don't go to major tournaments to play 40k so it has zero impact on you.

Of course it has an impact on me. I want to go to major tournaments to play 40k, but the people running them keep saying "you are not welcome".

OverwatchCNC wrote:
While I completely agree with the second part of your statement the purpose is to illustrate that many of the reasons given by TOs and other in favor of including FW are either gone or obsolete in some way.

Well, many of the less important ones. The OP conveniently neglects the best reason, that GW has said that FW is part of the game and house rules that arbitrarily ban options that an individual TO doesn't like are bad. Just like all the comp-heavy tournaments that were laughed at (for good reasons) in 5th.

If you really wanted to go to a tournament you would just take your DKOK and use them with the Imperial Guard Codex. I rather get the impression you get more enjoyment complaining that you are unwelcome.

I seem to recall you as saying that you really only had a smallish 40k collection but a rather impressive amount of apocalypse units. Your whole "woe is me" I am unwelcome at tournaments mantra is kind of sad, man up like the rest of us and get a tournament army if you TRULY are interested in going to a tournament.

**Oaka**

"My army list has 3 Kroot Great Knarlocs in it."

"I don't want to play against Forgeworld units, they're not official."

"Ok, well I brought a list where they are counts-as Heldrakes, then."

"On the other hand, it might be interesting to play against some new units I've never faced before."

I think having two different types of tournaments is the best solution. I don't like that most of them are called 40k 'tournaments', because that implies a competitive atmosphere. I would consider the ones that I attend, that allow Forgeworld, to be 40k events. The only problem is that many TOs will copy and paste the rules for the biggest, most competitive tournaments, for their smaller, local ones, and those rules usually disallow FW. It's really on the shoulders of the TO to determine what type of atmosphere they are trying to achieve, but I think we've mentioned that dozens of times by now.

**RiTides**

muwhe wrote:
As for op units bein in all books you seem to have missed the point where with fw they are more or less centralized in IG.

Except that has not always been the case and will not be the case in the future. What is “good” in 40K changes that is the one constant.

Which is exactly why I think creating some “banned” list for specific units is problematic. The changes brought about by every new Codex, Forgeworld book and FAQ update make the long term issue of determining what units are allowed and disallowed a nightmare. Your choices are either gaze into a crystal ball to try to predict what a player base may leverage and ban it or allow it and rely on the players to adapt and come up with counters. In my opinion, outright banning is not an effective long term strategy.

It sounds simple, just ban X unit. But from an event standpoint, you are publishing rules months and months in advance of the event. Collecting signups based on those rules and expectations. Over the course of those months things change new books come out, FAQ documents get published. Potentially tweaking the banned list at the last minute is not exactly fair but then again neither is leaving a flawed banned list in place given a changing a game meta in flux. So what may start off as something that sounds simple and reasonable ends up being unpalatable months later come event go time even with the best intentions.

The core issue is spamming hyper efficient units. So adopting a general 0-1 restriction for Forgeworld goes a long way to mitigate the problem.

Something else I will point out, since it seems to be a focus of this thread is on the “unfairiness” of army X getting more choices then army Y. It has been a fairly standard practice that not all codexs have the same number of choices. As others have pointed out many of those choices are superficial ones. But the key point is it is not strictly how many unit options are available that determines if something is “good” or “over powered”. To steal the Football analogy someone used earlier in this thread. So what if you get you get a choice of 50 football players… as long as I get the choice of taking Aaron Rodgers. The import thing is not the quantity of the options but the quality. All it takes is for one codex to get one unit from Forgeworld and for that one unit to be “good” and it is irrelevant how many choices they have access to selecting. It is the chronic problem we have in codex releases with having no brainer choices in key force organizational slots that leave all other options sub optimal.

Do you want more variety at events? I will get up on my soapbox for a minute .. so bare with me. I used to show up to a GT or RTT, get handed a scenario and play it no questions asked. I had zero expectations of knowing that scenario ahead of the event and I expected to be surprised. In doing so I had to account for the chance I might see anything with my army list. I had to make hard choices. I had to be prepared to adapt to whatever a tourney organizer may throw at me. I did not have weeks to playtest against the exact 4 missions I would play. I also didn’t have the option to optimize my army list to those missions get the maximum advantage.

In some ways, the sameness we now see at events is self created. We have created expectations that players will know everything before hand in the interest of “fairness”. As such players that have the means, knowledge, resources and the time to field the most efficient army for the scenario, rules and terrain mix of any given event have an advantage and will come up with the most efficient force. As with anything there are advantages and disadvantages.

Nice post, muwhe! I think the 0-1 restriction is great for many events. But if folks want to run more FW than that in an event, I think some kind of prohibited/limited list would help.

Just caught up on this thread after vacation. Lots of great points, cheers for those who made thoughtful posts like the above, and Mannahnin's, MVBrandt's, etc. There's a lot of facets to this and it helps to see folks' thought-out opinions on it, which are usually not black and white but rather some shade of grey

**Peregrine**

JWhex wrote:
If you really wanted to go to a tournament you would just take your DKOK and use them with the Imperial Guard Codex. I rather get the impression you get more enjoyment complaining that you are unwelcome.

So what am I going to use my Avengers for? And my earthshaker guns? And my Hades drills? None of that works as a codex list.

I seem to recall you as saying that you really only had a smallish 40k collection but a rather impressive amount of apocalypse units. Your whole "woe is me" I am unwelcome at tournaments mantra is kind of sad, man up like the rest of us and get a tournament army if you TRULY are interested in going to a tournament.

So the solution to TOs imposing ridiculous house rules is to buy an entire additional army that I have no interest in building or painting just so I can follow them? And you think this counts as making me welcome at those events?

**Relic07**

Blackmoor wrote:

Oh yes, I am opening up this can of worms again.

There was a push after the release of 6th edition to include forge world in tournament play and we were seeing it being adopted into tournaments.

Some of the reasons why were:

#1. Forge World will be embraced by Games Workshop soon so we might as well go ahead and include it.
We all know what happened here, this turned out to be just a rumor.

#2. Alot of codex’s have no way to deal with flyers and Forge World is the only way they can get Skyfire.
Well that was a lot of codexes ago. Let’s take a look at them:
Chaos Space marines
Dark Angels
Chaos Demons
Tau
Eldar
Space Marines (Coming soon)
Also don’t forget the Skies of Blood supplement

GW has been working overtime and cranking out the 6th edition books so now most of them are 6th edition compatible. Almost every army now has some way of dealing with flyers and those that don’t Forge World will not help them. The funny thing is that it really only helped out IG and SM armies who really did not need any help with skyfire. There were also unintended consequences to having all of these units that have skyfire/interceptor. Sure it kept the Necron armies away, but what happens is that you end up hurting armies that are viable builds that use reserves to get onto the board, and it also hurts armies that would like to use fliers (as a means of their only flier defense or for fun) get screwed.

Also the bottom line is that player who takes 12 Hyperios Launchers or Saber Platforms is not looking to protect himself from flyers, but trying to blow his opponent away with an over powered and undercosted unit.

#3. The codexes are getting tired and old, and this will bring a lot of new and interesting units to everyone’s armies.
That sure was a lot of codexes ago. So if you do not have a lot of new toys to play with, you can ally in new and exciting units to your existing army. Also if this is your argument for including forge world in competitive tournaments. I will point to the fact that all you see over and over again are the same units (saber platforms) and the other broken ones since no one uses the fluffy choices.

So now looking back at Forge World in tournaments I have to ask…do we need it?

Yes, we do need it. Don't bitch about the Hyperios or Sabre platforms. Of course your opponent is trying to blow you away. You are doing the same thing.
You ran a cheesed out wound allocated draigo wing thru most of 5th. Now I take it your worried that your draigo wing can't stand up to that much firepower.....

Adapt. Forge World is not going away and I suspect will become even more common in tournament play. The rules are considered official now and don't require opponents consent.

**Breng77**

Peregrine wrote:
JWhex wrote:
If you really wanted to go to a tournament you would just take your DKOK and use them with the Imperial Guard Codex. I rather get the impression you get more enjoyment complaining that you are unwelcome.

So what am I going to use my Avengers for? And my earthshaker guns? And my Hades drills? None of that works as a codex list.
Now I'm not sure the exact scale of all those models, but you cannot counts as anything? The Avenger could not count as a Vendetta?Allied Storm Talon? Allied Helldrake? The Earth shaker can't count as a basilistk? I honestly don't know I just find it hard to believe that with a minimal ammount of work this could not be made to work as counts as. Furthermore do you only own enough models to bring a list that must include these this in order to compete? IF so I'll tackle that in my answer to your second question.

I seem to recall you as saying that you really only had a smallish 40k collection but a rather impressive amount of apocalypse units. Your whole "woe is me" I am unwelcome at tournaments mantra is kind of sad, man up like the rest of us and get a tournament army if you TRULY are interested in going to a tournament.

So the solution to TOs imposing ridiculous house rules is to buy an entire additional army that I have no interest in building or painting just so I can follow them? And you think this counts as making me welcome at those events?

So if the answer is that you don't own enough IG to make a viable list for an event without FW, why can I not say the same about FW inclusion. FW has only recently been accepted by anyone, and only recently been any indication that it is to be used in standard games (though it still asks for opponent's consent to play against unfamiliar models) so is it fair for you to ask me to spend a bunch of money on in the FW case an entire army if I want to compete at a high level? IS this making me as a competitor welcome at these events? Sure you can say well you can still attend but you won't do well, and I ask again do you not own enough models of any army, IG or otherwise that can "count as" enough to meet tournament points levels? IF so you are as welcome at those events as I am in a FW allowed event.

**RiTides**

Using terms like "house rules" is simply going to make your argument be ignored, as it's well established that 40k requires rules FAQs / clarifications / etc to work for any tournament, and most come with a packet listing these now. Whether a TO should be giving "consent" to FW use is, of course, the point of this discussion (and in what circumstances). Yay or nay, it will have to be listed in the packet... hence the discussion

These calls are made by the TO, not individual players, in a tourney setting.

**cvtuttle**

You mentioned wanting to see what happened at Wargames Con when you were on the 11th Company....

1st: Necrons (Ork allies - no forgeworld)
2nd: Chaos Daemons - (no forgeworld)
3rd: IG (forgeworld)
4th: Chaos Daemons (CSM allies - no forgeworld)

Results are in.

In regards to your statements about FW being too expensive. You can quite easily convert many existing plastic models to represent FW units at a lower cost. This point has been brought up before.

However, I find your point about non-tournament players being the ones advocating for FW while the tournament players are the ones impacted a pretty good point. I am certainly not a "hardcore" tournament player. I bring FW to events I play in and regularly get crushed by guys without FW units. Probably says something about my playing ability....

Regardless, your point holds some merit, which is why I haven't piped up in here earlier. However, the results of BoLs Con... excuse me... Wargamescon would seem to say that FW isn't the auto-win button it is frequently (and erroneously) portrayed as.

**pities2004**

Well so far this thread is 100% forgeworld 40k not fantasy,

I have never had any issues playing my Chaos Dwarfs from Tamurkhan, I own all the forgeworld models and always get praises. I guess 40k there is just soo much stuff out there it's harder for people to accept it?

**Blackmoor**

cvtuttle wrote:
You mentioned wanting to see what happened at Wargames Con when you were on the 11th Company....

1st: Necrons (Ork allies - no forgeworld)
2nd: Chaos Daemons - (no forgeworld)
3rd: IG (forgeworld)
4th: Chaos Daemons (CSM allies - no forgeworld)

Results are in.

Regardless, your point holds some merit, which is why I haven't piped up in here earlier. However, the results of BoLs Con... excuse me... Wargamescon would seem to say that FW isn't the auto-win button it is frequently (and erroneously) portrayed as.

I saw those results and it just left me with more questions like:
#1. Why was there no Tau on in the top 16?
#2. Did the missions impact armies with FW?
#3. How many people brought FW, and did they take the broken units?

It is interesting that there were only 9 IG armies, so the odds of them being heavy FW is pretty low. I would like to know how many vultures where there, as well as quad guns, and heavy artillery platforms.

And Carl, if everyone played like you do I would have no issue with FW. It is only when it is abused is it unbalancing.

Edit: I did note that attendance was down this year, and I am courious why. I am not saying it was because of FW but I would like to know why even though there is now way of knowing.

**MVBrandt**

cvtuttle wrote:
You mentioned wanting to see what happened at Wargames Con when you were on the 11th Company....

1st: Necrons (Ork allies - no forgeworld)
2nd: Chaos Daemons - (no forgeworld)
3rd: IG (forgeworld)
4th: Chaos Daemons (CSM allies - no forgeworld)

Results are in.

In regards to your statements about FW being too expensive. You can quite easily convert many existing plastic models to represent FW units at a lower cost. This point has been brought up before.

However, I find your point about non-tournament players being the ones advocating for FW while the tournament players are the ones impacted a pretty good point. I am certainly not a "hardcore" tournament player. I bring FW to events I play in and regularly get crushed by guys without FW units. Probably says something about my playing ability....

Regardless, your point holds some merit, which is why I haven't piped up in here earlier. However, the results of BoLs Con... excuse me... Wargamescon would seem to say that FW isn't the auto-win button it is frequently (and erroneously) portrayed as.

While I will again caveat in advance that I play with FW at half the events I attend, and allow FW at half the events I host (2/4), I think the evaluation of FW's impact is on the "average" tournament gamer, not the top tables. What were average players with thudd guns and sabres and vultures doing to people in the mid-tables ... I don't think any of us should have ALL that much sympathy for the top tier competitors, who are going to maybe not LIKE the inclusion of FW, but are going to prepare for it regardless (I'm one of these players, a multi-GT winner who doesn't particularly LIKE having to prepare for FW, but does so well enough and even happily brings it to his own advantage when permitted).

**Blackmoor**

Relic07 wrote:

Yes, we do need it. Don't bitch about the Hyperios or Sabre platforms. Of course your opponent is trying to blow you away. You are doing the same thing.
You ran a cheesed out wound allocated draigo wing thru most of 5th. Now I take it your worried that your draigo wing can't stand up to that much firepower.....

Adapt. Forge World is not going away and I suspect will become even more common in tournament play. The rules are considered official now and don't require opponents consent.

I have played against Draigowing many times with both my Chaos and Eldar and I have never lost to it. Draigowing has a lot of exploitable weaknesses. I am still waiting for someone to come up with a good way to kill FW artillery.

**happygolucky**

Imo, I can understand why FW should not be allowed as I know the team at FW have even stated (im sure its on one of their videos on their YouTube channel) that there stuff is not really for Competitive play and more for scenario play for their books so they can make it as OP as they like, hence why there are some units that really hurt quite a few armies without FW in FW allowed events.

Put it this way, in a few years when they release more Horus Heresy stuff there will be an Emperor model guaranteed to be released. Now imagine a 40k tourney that allows FW... Every Marine army now will contain The Emperor and I am assured that he will be THE chuck Norris if 40k (c'mon its Big E)... now would you think it would be fair if you were playing against The Emperor of Mankind on the table?

And thus is why imo why FW is banned in tourneys because even with restrictions there will be that player who will bring in a maximum squad of "FW unit X" or "SC X" to the table, and call me old fashioned but I like to know what I am fighting.

**Vaktathi**

happygolucky wrote:
Imo, I can understand why FW should not be allowed as I know the team at FW have even stated (im sure its on one of their videos on their YouTube channel) that there stuff is not really for Competitive play and more for scenario play

So did the core GW design studio about 40k 6th edition at their open day event.

The only time FW has commented on using their rules as potentially inappropriate in normal games (besides Apoc units) is Horus Heresy lists and units, since they're specifically designed for use against each other and often at higher points values than normal games.

**kronk**

happygolucky wrote:
Imo, I can understand why FW should not be allowed as I know the team at FW have even stated (im sure its on one of their videos on their YouTube channel) that there stuff is not really for Competitive play and more for scenario play for their books so they can make it as OP as they like, hence why there are some units that really hurt quite a few armies without FW in FW allowed events.
.

Please post link to video. I have never heard this said, either on video or from audience members of a FW Seminar, other than for their 30k material (Horus Heresy: Betrayal).

**OverwatchCNC**

MVBrandt wrote:
cvtuttle wrote:
You mentioned wanting to see what happened at Wargames Con when you were on the 11th Company....

1st: Necrons (Ork allies - no forgeworld)
2nd: Chaos Daemons - (no forgeworld)
3rd: IG (forgeworld)
4th: Chaos Daemons (CSM allies - no forgeworld)

Results are in.

In regards to your statements about FW being too expensive. You can quite easily convert many existing plastic models to represent FW units at a lower cost. This point has been brought up before.

However, I find your point about non-tournament players being the ones advocating for FW while the tournament players are the ones impacted a pretty good point. I am certainly not a "hardcore" tournament player. I bring FW to events I play in and regularly get crushed by guys without FW units. Probably says something about my playing ability....

Regardless, your point holds some merit, which is why I haven't piped up in here earlier. However, the results of BoLs Con... excuse me... Wargamescon would seem to say that FW isn't the auto-win button it is frequently (and erroneously) portrayed as.

While I will again caveat in advance that I play with FW at half the events I attend, and allow FW at half the events I host (2/4), I think the evaluation of FW's impact is on the "average" tournament gamer, not the top tables. What were average players with thudd guns and sabres and vultures doing to people in the mid-tables ... I don't think any of us should have ALL that much sympathy for the top tier competitors, who are going to maybe not LIKE the inclusion of FW, but are going to prepare for it regardless (I'm one of these players, a multi-GT winner who doesn't particularly LIKE having to prepare for FW, but does so well enough and even happily brings it to his own advantage when permitted).

I agree with this and this is where I am speaking from. I am not a high level GT player and I know it. I win my fair number of local tournaments but when it comes to GT level, BAO, WGC etc. I am completely middle of the road. I finished almost dead center at both 2011 and 2012 BAO and the 2012 WGC. As a middle of the pack player I dislike the inclusion of FW not because I want to power game my current army to victory over other non-FW armies but because FW does not add enjoyment to my tournament experience.

**Relic07**

Blackmoor wrote:
Relic07 wrote:

Yes, we do need it. Don't bitch about the Hyperios or Sabre platforms. Of course your opponent is trying to blow you away. You are doing the same thing.
You ran a cheesed out wound allocated draigo wing thru most of 5th. Now I take it your worried that your draigo wing can't stand up to that much firepower.....

Adapt. Forge World is not going away and I suspect will become even more common in tournament play. The rules are considered official now and don't require opponents consent.

I have played against Draigowing many times with both my Chaos and Eldar and I have never lost to it. Draigowing has a lot of exploitable weaknesses. I am still waiting for someone to come up with a good way to kill FW artillery.

Nope. Not in 5th ed. A dual lash 9 oblit chaos list had a small chance of success. Any other Chaos list not a chance in hell.

In 6th, it is a different story. Still a good list, but not competitive against IG running FW spam. Which I think is what your big problem is.

Running FW is no more abusive than the rest of the top tier lists out there.

Also, I don't buy the "I want to know what I am playing" excuse. If you are a serious competitor, you need to have the FW books and understand the builds.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

OverwatchCNC wrote:
MVBrandt wrote:
cvtuttle wrote:
You mentioned wanting to see what happened at Wargames Con when you were on the 11th Company....

1st: Necrons (Ork allies - no forgeworld)
2nd: Chaos Daemons - (no forgeworld)
3rd: IG (forgeworld)
4th: Chaos Daemons (CSM allies - no forgeworld)

Results are in.

In regards to your statements about FW being too expensive. You can quite easily convert many existing plastic models to represent FW units at a lower cost. This point has been brought up before.

However, I find your point about non-tournament players being the ones advocating for FW while the tournament players are the ones impacted a pretty good point. I am certainly not a "hardcore" tournament player. I bring FW to events I play in and regularly get crushed by guys without FW units. Probably says something about my playing ability....

Regardless, your point holds some merit, which is why I haven't piped up in here earlier. However, the results of BoLs Con... excuse me... Wargamescon would seem to say that FW isn't the auto-win button it is frequently (and erroneously) portrayed as.

While I will again caveat in advance that I play with FW at half the events I attend, and allow FW at half the events I host (2/4), I think the evaluation of FW's impact is on the "average" tournament gamer, not the top tables. What were average players with thudd guns and sabres and vultures doing to people in the mid-tables ... I don't think any of us should have ALL that much sympathy for the top tier competitors, who are going to maybe not LIKE the inclusion of FW, but are going to prepare for it regardless (I'm one of these players, a multi-GT winner who doesn't particularly LIKE having to prepare for FW, but does so well enough and even happily brings it to his own advantage when permitted).

I agree with this and this is where I am speaking from. I am not a high level GT player and I know it. I win my fair number of local tournaments but when it comes to GT level, BAO, WGC etc. I am completely middle of the road. I finished almost dead center at both 2011 and 2012 BAO and the 2012 WGC. As a middle of the pack player I dislike the inclusion of FW not because I want to power game my current army to victory over other non-FW armies but because FW does not add enjoyment to my tournament experience.

If you want to win those events you are going to have to power game. The winner of the BAO this year speaks volumes about this...... While the winner was a decent player, the broken list is what mattered most.
That is how tournament 40K is.

**Blackmoor**

Relic07 wrote:

Nope. Not in 5th ed. A dual lash 9 oblit chaos list had a small chance of success. Any other Chaos list not a chance in hell.

Are you saying that there was any other type of Chaos list in 5th edition other than Oblit spam? Grey Knights have no answer for Oblits and are a really hard match-up. Do I complain about how hard they are and how they should be banned because it can beat my army?

In 6th, it is a different story. Still a good list, but not competitive against IG running FW spam. Which I think is what your big problem is.

I wonder why you said IG FW spam since FW is so fair and balanced i am sure that it makes every army better...oh wait, it really only benifits one army. Also every army is not competative against IG FW. Also, if you think that I do not like it is becauce of the match-up with Draigowing you are wrong. I have been tired of my Draigowing army for some time and I have moved on to Chaos Demons and Eldar.

Running FW is no more abusive than the rest of the top tier lists out there.

Most top teir lists I can counter. There is no counter for IG artillery spam.

Also, I don't buy the "I want to know what I am playing" excuse. If you are a serious competitor, you need to have the FW books and understand the builds.

No one knows every unit that is in all of those books, even people who own them, Each tournament it is a new broken unit shows up. How many people know about that librarian before Adepticon?

**Breng77**

Also, I don't buy the "I want to know what I am playing" excuse. If you are a serious competitor, you need to have the FW books and understand the builds.

If that is true then I am definitely against them, I already have to spend what will eventually be~ $800 on codicies, now you want me to spend that much again (or more) on FW books. So at any one time I will need to own $1600 worth of books (more as FW adds to the pile as they don't just rotate codices like 40k), then I need to buy at $1000+ army, then I need to pay for the events....or I could save my self $800+ and not play in FW events....I'll save the money thanks....

I more or less own most of the 40k books. With their new price point I am already stopping that,, why would I want to spend more money?

Furthermore just reading the books does not help much. If like me next to no one in your area plays with FW, how would I know how to counter those armies?

Just saying.

All that said I am not a top table GT player, but if I faced a FW artillery spam army, from what I understand of it, I don't think it would make for a very enjoyable game.

**pities2004**

Breng77 wrote:
Also, I don't buy the "I want to know what I am playing" excuse. If you are a serious competitor, you need to have the FW books and understand the builds.

If that is true then I am definitely against them, I already have to spend what will eventually be~ $800 on codicies, now you want me to spend that much again (or more) on FW books. So at any one time I will need to own $1600 worth of books (more as FW adds to the pile as they don't just rotate codices like 40k), then I need to buy at $1000+ army, then I need to pay for the events....or I could save my self $800+ and not play in FW events....I'll save the money thanks....

I more or less own most of the 40k books. With their new price point I am already stopping that,, why would I want to spend more money?

Furthermore just reading the books does not help much. If like me next to no one in your area plays with FW, how would I know how to counter those armies?

Just saying.

All that said I am not a top table GT player, but if I faced a FW artillery spam army, from what I understand of it, I don't think it would make for a very enjoyable game.

Didn't realize the canadian dollar was soo low. No one is forcing you to buy forgeworld or play forgeworld.

I spent 1200 dollars on my chaos dwarfs =)

**Vaktathi**

Breng77 wrote:
Also, I don't buy the "I want to know what I am playing" excuse. If you are a serious competitor, you need to have the FW books and understand the builds.

If that is true then I am definitely against them, I already have to spend what will eventually be~ $800 on codicies, now you want me to spend that much again (or more) on FW books. So at any one time I will need to own $1600 worth of books (more as FW adds to the pile as they don't just rotate codices like 40k), then I need to buy at $1000+ army, then I need to pay for the events....or I could save my self $800+ and not play in FW events....I'll save the money thanks....

If cost is going to factor into this, we'd better ban IG, Sisters,Orks and a dozen other specialist army builds in general then, because if you wanted to play those instead of Draigowing you'd have to pay 3-4x as much too.

I more or less own most of the 40k books. With their new price point I am already stopping that,, why would I want to spend more money?

If you're already not purchasing codex books and are willing to be unprepared with those armies, why are you upset about not purchasing GW books?

Furthermore just reading the books does not help much. If like me next to no one in your area plays with FW, how would I know how to counter those armies?

How is that different than if nobody plays Tau or Grey Knights or Sisters in your area? It's not. Hell, at least you can still get FW books, unlike the rules for Sisters of Battle.

**Relic07**

Blackmoor wrote:
Relic07 wrote:

Nope. Not in 5th ed. A dual lash 9 oblit chaos list had a small chance of success. Any other Chaos list not a chance in hell.

Are you saying that there was any other type of Chaos list in 5th edition other than Oblit spam? Grey Knights have no answer for Oblits and are a really hard match-up. Do I complain about how hard they are and how they should be banned because it can beat my army?

In 6th, it is a different story. Still a good list, but not competitive against IG running FW spam. Which I think is what your big problem is.

I wonder why you said IG FW spam since FW is so fair and balanced i am sure that it makes every army better...oh wait, it really only benifits one army. Also every army is not competative against IG FW. Also, if you think that I do not like it is becauce of the match-up with Draigowing you are wrong. I have been tired of my Draigowing army for some time and I have moved on to Chaos Demons and Eldar.

Running FW is no more abusive than the rest of the top tier lists out there.

Most top teir lists I can counter. There is no counter for IG artillery spam.

Also, I don't buy the "I want to know what I am playing" excuse. If you are a serious competitor, you need to have the FW books and understand the builds.

No one knows every unit that is in all of those books, even people who own them, Each tournament it is a new broken unit shows up. How many people know about that librarian before Adepticon?

"Grey Knights have no answer for Oblits and are a really hard match-up."
What? I blow them away with Psycannons all the time. And no, there was no other top tier Chaos list in 5th. Dual Lash + Oblit or Chosen spam was it. Daemons had Fatecrusher if you want to throw that in.

"oh wait, it really only benifits one army."
Not even close. There is this little thing in 6th edition called Allies. Guess what, IG allies with more armies than any other.

"Most top teir lists I can counter. There is no counter for IG artillery spam."
Disagree. I am already cooking up several ways to counter it. If you are playing Grey Knights you may need to take allies to do it, but like I said above, ADAPT.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:
Breng77 wrote:
Also, I don't buy the "I want to know what I am playing" excuse. If you are a serious competitor, you need to have the FW books and understand the builds.

If that is true then I am definitely against them, I already have to spend what will eventually be~ $800 on codicies, now you want me to spend that much again (or more) on FW books. So at any one time I will need to own $1600 worth of books (more as FW adds to the pile as they don't just rotate codices like 40k), then I need to buy at $1000+ army, then I need to pay for the events....or I could save my self $800+ and not play in FW events....I'll save the money thanks....
If cost is going to factor into this, we'd better ban IG, Sisters,Orks and a dozen other specialist army builds in general then, because if you wanted to play those instead of Draigowing you'd have to pay 3-4x as much too.

I more or less own most of the 40k books. With their new price point I am already stopping that,, why would I want to spend more money?
If you're already not purchasing codex books and are willing to be unprepared with those armies, why are you upset about not purchasing GW books?

Furthermore just reading the books does not help much. If like me next to no one in your area plays with FW, how would I know how to counter those armies?
How is that different than if nobody plays Tau or Grey Knights or Sisters in your area? It's not. Hell, at least you can still get FW books, unlike the rules for Sisters of Battle.

^^^^^^^^^^^ This

No one is forcing you to buy Forgeworld books or models. But don't expect to be able to compete at a high level in major events without complete system mastery of FW.
That is like planning on playing on the PGA, but not being up to date on all of the latest golf equipment.