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 Vaktathi wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Also, I don't buy the "I want to know what I am playing" excuse. If you are a serious competitor, you need to have the FW books and understand the builds.

If that is true then I am definitely against them, I already have to spend what will eventually be~ $800 on codicies, now you want me to spend that much again (or more) on FW books. So at any one time I will need to own $1600 worth of books (more as FW adds to the pile as they don't just rotate codices like 40k), then I need to buy at $1000+ army, then I need to pay for the events....or I could save my self $800+ and not play in FW events....I'll save the money thanks....

If cost is going to factor into this, we'd better ban IG, Sisters,Orks and a dozen other specialist army builds in general then, because if you wanted to play those instead of Draigowing you'd have to pay 3-4x as much too.

I more or less own most of the 40k books. With their new price point I am already stopping that,, why would I want to spend more money?

If you're already not purchasing codex books and are willing to be unprepared with those armies, why are you upset about not purchasing GW books?

Furthermore just reading the books does not help much. If like me next to no one in your area plays with FW, how would I know how to counter those armies?

How is that different than if nobody plays Tau or Grey Knights or Sisters in your area? It's not. Hell, at least you can still get FW books, unlike the rules for Sisters of Battle.

So I don't play Draigowing.....beyond that, the its already expensive so more is ok does not float for me. As for the rest, I cannot think of one army in standard 40k that I cannot face in my area (some I need to travel a bit more), the sisters rules were available for a time, at My LGS, and I own them because they were $20. Not FW, as it is not available local to me (I Must order it from england.) Big difference there. So saying it is the same is just plain not true. While I certainly may not have encountered every build possible, I at least know how these armies work because I play them often enough. I have played against FW units perhaps twice (maybe 3 times) in my life, and 2 of those were Apocalpse games...which don't really count for much as I won't see many titans on the table.

The argument that FW is as common in play as non-FW seems silly to me, but perhaps elsewhere it is not.

There have in fact already been several counters to artillery discussed, however they were simply dismissed out of hand as having "no idea how tournament play works" so the butthurt could continue.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There have in fact already been several counters to artillery discussed, however they were simply dismissed out of hand as having "no idea how tournament play works" so the butthurt could continue.

As long as there is butt hurt in the world this thread will always exsist

No one is forcing you to buy Forgeworld books or models. But don't expect to be able to compete at a high level in major events without complete system mastery of FW.
That is like planning on playing on the PGA, but not being up to date on all of the latest golf equipment.

SO again, not forcing me to buy the, but forcing me to buy them, if I want to compete. That is like saying, if I want to compete in the PGA not only should I own good clubs, spikes, and Balls, but also own my own driving range, and putting green. So again I ask. If given the choice between events that "force" me to spend this money, and still not be prepared, or events that don't. And in general I think I might have more fun at the latter, why do I want to go to a FW event? Because it is some how "real" 40k, when I have never seen 40k played this way on a regular basis near me? May be I should tell you that to play the PGA maybe you need to give up your turbo charged golf cart, because you are required to walk the course.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, I'm not even sure I am against FW events, if given the choice at the moment I would choose non-FW, but I think having different events is a good thing. Just not a fan of others telling me well, if you don't play like x, it is bad.

Breng77 wrote:

So I don't play Draigowing.....beyond that, the its already expensive so more is ok does not float for me.

I hate to say it but if you're going to compete at the top levels and aren't willing to shell out, then you're going to be up against situations where you aren't familiar with the opposing army, Forgeworld or not. Why should other people not be allowed to bring their Warhammer 40,000 models for units that exist in the Warhammer 40,000 universe to a Warhammer 40,000 event just because you didn't want to shell out for the books?

As for the rest, I cannot think of one army in standard 40k that I cannot face in my area (some I need to travel a bit more)

be that as it may, that's not necessarily the case for all players, and others (like myself) routinely play with and against FW at our FLGS's.

the sisters rules were available for a time, at My LGS, and I own them because they were $20.

If one didn't pick up the White Dwarf they were in for the time it was out however, there's no way to get them except 2nd hand or through piracy. Many of the players I routinely game with are more familiar with FW stuff than SoB rules. we've certainly had more FW units/armies used in our recent tournaments and leagues than SoB armies have been present.

Not FW, as it is not available local to me (I Must order it from england.) Big difference there.

And you have to direct orders Sisters of Battle too.

SO in your area, it makes more sense to use FW, because it is widely accepted, in mine, not as much. Again why I favor events using both, and letting players decide what they want. I have never said FW should never be played anywhere ever. Simply that I (due to familiarity, cost, and preference of players in my area (for events that I run)) prefer non-FW given the choice. I am already running 1 FW allowed event and 1 Fw banned event at the convention I head up Wargamming at. It seems though that Pro-FW people are not ok with this solution and that every event must use FW. Even when the players attending don't want it...I have also said I would be all for full FW inclusion with banning of a few more broken units (all that favor 1 particular army over the rest.). But this is still apparently not ok with Pro-FW people. Apparently there is only 1 right way to play 40k for them.

Blackmoor don't you know that daemons crushed the Tau in Austin? Seriously...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Blackmoor don't you know that daemons crushed the Tau in Austin? Seriously...

Daemons probably benefitted by the extreme amount of objectives and their ability to generate more troops. That and they are totally kick ass. Im sure they caught a lot of players off guard as well. It's good to see their competitive though, the rumors of the death of assault might have been greatly exaggerated.

 Blackmoor wrote:

Most top teir lists I can counter. There is no counter for IG artillery spam.

And here, I have to question your judgement. I seem to recall at one point, you claimed there was no counter to horde orks.

Clearly, there is a counter to IG artillery spam, because Alan B. (A top-level player with several wins in GTs) did not win all his games in Austin, despite using sabers and thudds. If there truly were no counter, how did he lose?

Exactly Redbeard he is already retracting things he said.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Exactly Redbeard he is already retracting things he said.

What army did you play at WGC?

 Redbeard wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:

Most top teir lists I can counter. There is no counter for IG artillery spam.

And here, I have to question your judgement. I seem to recall at one point, you claimed there was no counter to horde orks.

Clearly, there is a counter to IG artillery spam, because Alan B. (A top-level player with several wins in GTs) did not win all his games in Austin, despite using sabers and thudds. If there truly were no counter, how did he lose?

But his IG/FW based army so dominated his opponents that he did beat that he lost 2 games, maybe 3?, and was still in the running to WIN the tournament. He accumulated enough Battle Points in his other games that he could lose and still potentially win. That speaks volumes about how dominant he and his list were in the first rounds. Which again harkens back to the early statements about what is FW doing to the average/Mid level players at these events?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Exactly Redbeard he is already retracting things he said.

What did I retract?

Orks were broken when their codex was released.

Last year when the Grey Knight codex came out everyone wondered if it was the most broken codex that GW ever published. A lot of people pointed to the Ork dominance at tournaments (unlike the GK who acctually did not win much) as the most broken codex that GW has ever released.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

But his IG/FW based army so dominated his opponents that he did beat that he lost 2 games, maybe 3?, and was still in the running to WIN the tournament.

So? That's a matter for how the tournament was run, not a question of whether FW units are broken. If it was using pure W/L, he wouldn't have made day two.

Some formats reward strength of victory, others only care about wins.

That speaks volumes about how dominant he and his list were in the first rounds. Which again harkens back to the early statements about what is FW doing to the average/Mid level players at these events?

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. I've played Alan B several times, and he's an excellent player who also happens to have hot dice. (In case that sounds wrong to anyone, I am NOT saying there's anything fishy about his dice, just that he is one of the luckier players I know). I've seen him dominate with multiple armies, most of which did not use FW stuff. I simply do not believe that there's anything worse for a mid-level player to be paired against Alan (or anyone else finishing top-ten at WGC, for that matter) using FW or using non-FW. It's an unlucky matchup for any midlevel player to draw one of those guys, regardless of what they're running.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackmoor wrote:

Orks were broken when their codex was released.

I completely disagree. Every codex has tools available to defeat horde armies. I remember the first time I had to play against horde orks with the 4th ed codex and shot them off the table, with Sisters. My army wasn't ideal for most of the metagame, but boy it countered horde orks well. The problem is not that there is no counter, it's that the counter to the horde ork list does badly against other armies which you are more likely to face. So, if you play the odds and tool your army to fight MEQ, then when you get the horde ork matchup, you're playing uphill.

It's kinda like Rock-Paper-Scissors, only there are six times as many rocks as anything else. You bring paper to beat all those rocks, and when you have to fight the scissors, you lose. That doesn't mean scissors are broken, it means that the meta favors rock.

There ARE counters to the IG Forgeworld stuff. Those counters just probably aren't real good against most of the rest of what you see, so you don't really want to bring them. But that's a self-correcting problem. If FW IG becomes so dominant, the meta will shift so those counters become a better bet to field.

In a tournament you need to bring a take-all-comers list to be able to deal with the most possible opponents. That is why FW is not good for tournament play.

If I wanted to play a friendly game at home and I tool my army to beat a FW army I might be able to do it.

That is my point. FW is ok for home games, but not for tournament play.

 Redbeard wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

But his IG/FW based army so dominated his opponents that he did beat that he lost 2 games, maybe 3?, and was still in the running to WIN the tournament.

So? That's a matter for how the tournament was run, not a question of whether FW units are broken. If it was using pure W/L, he wouldn't have made day two.

Some formats reward strength of victory, others only care about wins.

That speaks volumes about how dominant he and his list were in the first rounds. Which again harkens back to the early statements about what is FW doing to the average/Mid level players at these events?

I'm not sure I agree with this sentiment. I've played Alan B several times, and he's an excellent player who also happens to have hot dice. (In case that sounds wrong to anyone, I am NOT saying there's anything fishy about his dice, just that he is one of the luckier players I know). I've seen him dominate with multiple armies, most of which did not use FW stuff. I simply do not believe that there's anything worse for a mid-level player to be paired against Alan (or anyone else finishing top-ten at WGC, for that matter) using FW or using non-FW. It's an unlucky matchup for any midlevel player to draw one of those guys, regardless of what they're running.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackmoor wrote:

Orks were broken when their codex was released.

I completely disagree. Every codex has tools available to defeat horde armies. I remember the first time I had to play against horde orks with the 4th ed codex and shot them off the table, with Sisters. My army wasn't ideal for most of the metagame, but boy it countered horde orks well. The problem is not that there is no counter, it's that the counter to the horde ork list does badly against other armies which you are more likely to face. So, if you play the odds and tool your army to fight MEQ, then when you get the horde ork matchup, you're playing uphill.

It's kinda like Rock-Paper-Scissors, only there are six times as many rocks as anything else. You bring paper to beat all those rocks, and when you have to fight the scissors, you lose. That doesn't mean scissors are broken, it means that the meta favors rock.

There ARE counters to the IG Forgeworld stuff. Those counters just probably aren't real good against most of the rest of what you see, so you don't really want to bring them. But that's a self-correcting problem. If FW IG becomes so dominant, the meta will shift so those counters become a better bet to field.

Blackmoor is right about this. When the Ork Codex first came out it absolutely dominated the tournament scene. There were not a lot of viable counters in a TAC list back than.
When the Grey Knight codex came out, Ork players really started bitching. They were used to steam rolling their opponents, but than they found out Draigo Wing could walk thru their entire green tide. And than the purifiers, lol.
Serves them right. I have met some pretty TFG Ork players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note, Forge World pulled their Apocalypse books from their website..... The Thudd and Artillery rules are in Apoc 2. Maybe they are going to release new books with the GW Apoc update and change the rules.....

I would suggest waiting before buying a bunch of models until the new rules come out....

The Quad guns are in IA 1: Second Edition. They probably aren't being touch and are already playable on that scale.

Still think unlimited FW is a bad idea personally. Not for me against others but like Brandt has said, for people in the middle tiers.

They've got their own opportunities to bring whatever units they like, it's not like FW is limited to the top end players, nor are most FW units super powerful or any without counter, FW isn't some super secret club key to the winning circle, it's just a greater range of plastic toys to play this game with. If nobody is going to huff about codex units like Heldrakes smacking down middle-tier players, I don't see why it should apply to Forgeworld. Besides, the best way to get experience with and acclimate to FW stuff is to play against it.

I just wanted to point out that FW adds a fair number of anti-air options to codices that don't have them yet.

 Blackmoor wrote:
In a tournament you need to bring a take-all-comers list to be able to deal with the most possible opponents. That is why FW is not good for tournament play.

If I wanted to play a friendly game at home and I tool my army to beat a FW army I might be able to do it.

That is my point. FW is ok for home games, but not for tournament play.

In your opinion. WGC pretty much proved you wrong. I did not play in the GT this year but I may do so again next year.

Vaktahi, did you read Hulksmash's post? He's not saying only top end players facing/taking FW, he's talking about middle tier players facing it:

 Hulksmash wrote:
The Quad guns are in IA 1: Second Edition. They probably aren't being touch and are already playable on that scale.

Still think unlimited FW is a bad idea personally. Not for me against others but like Brandt has said, for people in the middle tiers.

It's true that unlike the top-end players, most players at a tourney will be unfamiliar with many FW options, unlike powerful codex options. Which is why the comparison between the heldrake and a powerful FW unit is not the same for most players.

This is also why muwhe's solution for the AdeptiCon team tourney (0-1 FW selection) works quite well. I still think a short ban list (like may have been done for the dreadclaw before it was nerfed?) is in order, but by and large I think AdeptiCon does great with this.

The idea of unlimited FW is unappealing to many tournament players, though... there's a big difference between the two from a player experience standpoint. Again, for folks in the middle, learning one new FW unit is very manageable (I faced a blight drone and some necron monster last year in the team tourney, both very fun games and both easy to get a grip on). Facing an entire FW army, with no restrictions, is just a different animal.

The top players will be fine, like always... and if your local meta includes tons of FW (like the Cali folks seem to be doing these days) then most players may be, too. But there's a reason you don't see unlimited FW at most GTs... and it will likely remain so, imo, unless folks can get over the "line in the sand" mentality and embrace a bit of compromise to gain wider FW adoption.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Blackmoor wrote:
In a tournament you need to bring a take-all-comers list to be able to deal with the most possible opponents. That is why FW is not good for tournament play.

If I wanted to play a friendly game at home and I tool my army to beat a FW army I might be able to do it.

That is my point. FW is ok for home games, but not for tournament play.

In your opinion. WGC pretty much proved you wrong. I did not play in the GT this year but I may do so again next year.

With the mission format and the amount of FW units in use I would say that it was inconclusive.

From the WCG Thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/quote/0/5706402.page

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Like the inclusion of forge world made me decide to finally go.

You guys are all talk. When I get home I will post my airline reservation that I canceled 2 weeks ago that I had to WGC. The pro-forge world crowd talks up going to FW allowed tournaments and that is the reason for them going. The only problem is that when it is time to put up, or shut up they are no where to be found.

I was there but decided to play in the Apocalypse event since I wanted to use my 30k army I've been slaving away building .

 Blackmoor wrote:

In a tournament you need to bring a take-all-comers list to be able to deal with the most possible opponents. That is why FW is not good for tournament play.

But the entire 6th ed metagame is screwed up in that case.

You guys are all talk. When I get home I will post my airline reservation that I canceled 2 weeks ago that I had to WGC. The pro-forge world crowd talks up going to FW allowed tournaments and that is the reason for them going. The only problem is that when it is time to put up, or shut up they are no where to be found.

Of course, everyone should be required to travel across the country whenever an event happens or be disallowed from posting? Is that what you're trying to say?

For the record, I played in the FW-allowed tournament at Adepticon, and did not play in the standard championship. I guess I can stay in the discussion?

RiTides. wrote: Again, for folks in the middle, learning one new FW unit is very manageable (I faced a blight drone and some necron monster last year in the team tourney, both very fun games and both easy to get a grip on). Facing an entire FW army, with no restrictions, is just a different animal.

Honestly I think facing the FW armies instead of codex armies with FW units typically is much less open to abuse when it comes to the things people have mentioned in this thread, but most TO's take the opposite stance, which is kinda odd.

There has been a lot of complaining about thudd guns and sabres, but no FW list can take both. While a DKoK assault brigade has cheap stormtrooper "Troops" that ignore 25% morale tests, it also has hilariously expensive chimeras and no Valkyries/Vultures/Vendettas/Sabres/Heavy Artillery Carriages/Manticores/Veterans (somewhat replaced by Grenadiers)/etc while its company command, platoon command, and infantry squad units are all 40-100% more expensive than their codex equivalents.

By "an entire FW army" I didn't mean the FW-specific lists (which, as mentioned a number of times chaos dwarfs are interestingly quite widely accepted for fantasy... which is great as I'm starting them ) but moreso FW added to normal lists, as you mention. This discussion seems to be limited to 40k, though, and if DKoK has access to some of the "problematic" FW units, I can see why people are wary...

I'm actually open to facing things like DKoK, I just don't think the discussion is going to go anywhere if people are only interested in considering completely unlimited FW. I think there are 2 solutions:

-Mostly unlimited FW, with a ban list
-Limited FW (0-1 or the like)

AdeptiCon has amply demonstrated that the latter can work, and work well, for a long time. I'd be very interested in the former, too, though. What I'm not interested in is completely unlimited FW, no ban list, no holds barred... again, just not of interest to me (and apparently many others) when a small list of prohibited units would make it much more appealing and bring out the theme players, who are the ones I care about being allowed to bring FW

 Vaktathi wrote:

There has been a lot of complaining about thudd guns and sabres, but no FW list can take both.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Alan's army...

Here is the Sabre heavy Thudd gun list -

Lord Commissar
CCS (autocannon, regimental standard)
DA librarian Lvl 2
Platioon CS
4x Infantry squad - autocannon, meltabombs, power axe
3x Sabre TL lascannon, extra crew
3x Sabre TL lascannon, extra crew
Vets (autocannon)
5x Scout (sniper rifle)
Vendetta
Vulture Gunship - punisher cannon
Manticore
3x Thudd gun
3x Thudd gun
Sky Shield Landing Pad

 Blackmoor wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

There has been a lot of complaining about thudd guns and sabres, but no FW list can take both.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Alan's army...

Here is the Sabre heavy Thudd gun list -

Lord Commissar
CCS (autocannon, regimental standard)
DA librarian Lvl 2
Platioon CS
4x Infantry squad - autocannon, meltabombs, power axe
3x Sabre TL lascannon, extra crew
3x Sabre TL lascannon, extra crew
Vets (autocannon)
5x Scout (sniper rifle)
Vendetta
Vulture Gunship - punisher cannon
Manticore
3x Thudd gun
3x Thudd gun
Sky Shield Landing Pad

I had the same reaction initially Alan. But he is saying there is no FW army list that can take both so allow FW army lists but no FW units for IG or allies so you won't run into the problem of the above list.

Right, FW army lists themselves actually generally have a fairly restricted set of units they can take, while the codex access is fairly open.

Most of the FW allowed tournaments have allowed FW units in codex lists where their potential for abuse is highest, but have not allowed the FW army lists where things are more controlled (i.e. there isn't FW list that includes both Sabres and Thudd Guns)

That said, there are also FW units that aren't specific to FW lists so couldn't be run outside a codex list, like the Decimator, so restricting FW to just FW lists would also mean many units like it could never be used.

 RiTides wrote:
This is also why muwhe's solution for the AdeptiCon team tourney (0-1 FW selection) works quite well.

It really doesn't. It allows the worst of the overpowered units (a codex IG list with lots of overpowered stuff already doesn't need much more) while excluding weaker "fluff" or "fun" lists for no good reason. For example, IG can take a battery of three earthshaker guns, but my Tau can't take a Barracuda and a unit of drone turrets.

Breng77 wrote:
So if the answer is that you don't own enough IG to make a viable list for an event without FW, why can I not say the same about FW inclusion.

Because there's a difference between not being allowed to participate at all unless you spend hundreds of dollars on an entire new army and being "forced" to spend money to maximize your chances of winning. You might not be guaranteed to win the event (and IMO, this shows where your priorities are), but at least you're able to play.

Also, this is a bad argument because the normal codex cycle already "forces" you to spend money to keep up if you want to have the perfect tournament winning list.

 Blackmoor wrote:
No one knows every unit that is in all of those books, even people who own them, Each tournament it is a new broken unit shows up. How many people know about that librarian before Adepticon?

Nonsense. Some people DO know all of those rules. And even if you don't how is that any different than if you failed to know about everything in the new Eldar codex? If you want to compete at the highest levels you need to accept that you are going to have to spend some time researching all the rules.

And for the record, I knew about the librarian character (who is incredibly overrated) and thudd guns long before you "discovered" them. The character was available in a free pdf posted shortly after 6th edition was released, if you didn't bother to look at it before playing in a FW-legal event then you have only yourself to blame.