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 DeffDred wrote:
So it basically creates the first step of making the thing that would make more things? I see.

Pretty much, yeah. It's just an alternative to making your original by hand.

Could they be used to make little one-off things like a park bench or chair? A room full of cubicles with computers and office chairs would make for some cool terrain.

Sure. But again, the quality of those things is going to come down to the printer used for it.

One of the awesome things about digital printing (as used to great effect by Raging Heroes and Dreamforge) is the ability to use the same model in multiple scales. So, for wargaming applications, you can create a model of, say, a tank, and print it out in 5mm, 10mm, 15mm, 28mm... depending on the game you want it for. Your digital sculpt for that is sometimes going to require some tweaking at different sizes, and you're still at the mercy of the level of detail available to your printer... but it has all sorts of awesome applications down that road.

 insaniak wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
So it basically creates the first step of making the thing that would make more things? I see.

Pretty much, yeah. It's just an alternative to making your original by hand.

Could they be used to make little one-off things like a park bench or chair? A room full of cubicles with computers and office chairs would make for some cool terrain.

Sure. But again, the quality of those things is going to come down to the printer used for it.

One of the awesome things about digital printing (as used to great effect by Raging Heroes and Dreamforge) is the ability to use the same model in multiple scales. So, for wargaming applications, you can create a model of, say, a tank, and print it out in 5mm, 10mm, 15mm, 28mm... depending on the game you want it for. Your digital sculpt for that is sometimes going to require some tweaking at different sizes, and you're still at the mercy of the level of detail available to your printer... but it has all sorts of awesome applications down that road.

We could finally try 15mm WH40K...

JWhex wrote:
No, this will not kill GW. I hope every time a new 3d printer is marketed it doesnt spawn another thread.

The question posed should be more general anyway, why not, will this kill Privateer? The question is always framed in response to GW when in fact this technology really could be a boon or bane to any particular line of miniatures manufacturer depending on how they react.

I can think of many questions that are infinetly more interesting to discuss than "Will this kill/harm/nerf/destroy GW. So many people with GW obsession on this forum need to take a step back from their automatic responses.

I can think of a number of ways that 3d printing could change the industry. Not all of them would be good for traditional manufacturers but likewise not all would be bad either

I made this thread because I think this is kind of a breakthrough device. I don't know every other printer there is, but this is the first time I have seen a printer that can actually produce a full colored miniature that looks like something. At least I think it can, judgeing by the specification. They have some samples on their site but I'm not sure about the size of these. I have mailed them and supposed that they try to print a wargames miniature.
At least it is not a industry level fridge-sized device that costs 20.000$. And It is much better then everything shapeways has to offer at the moment. When it comes to color, there is only colored sandstone that has a very low level of detail.

I agree, 3D-printing is no real threat to GW or any other manufacturer, at least in the next 10 years. I just wanted to exaggerate the title a bit. And GW is pretty much the 800 pound grizzly of wargaming, that's why I referred to them. Injection molding will always be less expensive for mass production, I guess. But if you want color you need a printer.



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silent25 wrote:
As for botObjects' printer. It seems awfully vague in details. Their site isn't really showing much in the way of actual objects. A lot of tech sites are openly dubious that this thing is real.

Ok, now I've seen it too. A lot of experts calim that this printer is a hoax.
I'ts true that they don't have much to show and the samples do look a lot like renders. Well, we will see.

 DeffDred wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
I don't know if it's been said but I think people are looking atit the wrong way.

I don't see people making bitz and such so much as moulds of bitz and such.

Why 3d print a single sholderpad when I can make a mould of 5?

For the moment, the 3D printer is more useful for prototyping. You design the original in a CAD program, print it out, and use that print to make your moulds.

3D printers for actual ongoing production will require them to be much better and faster than they are now, but will likely happen eventually.

So it basically creates the first step of making the thing that would make more things? I see.

Could they be used to make little one-off things like a park bench or chair? A room full of cubicles with computers and office chairs would make for some cool terrain.

Yes, they can. There is no mould involved with 3D printing, so the cost of one-off small things like a small badge or pin, or a small terrain crate is small, as opposed to having to tool the mould, which costs a bomb.

Why isnt this just like recasting? I made a post about recasting out of production minis and got my thread shut down. just saying printing minis seems to me to be thing just diffrent medium.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Why isnt this just like recasting? I made a post about recasting out of production minis and got my thread shut down. just saying printing minis seems to me to be thing just diffrent medium.

It's the same thing, basically, if you use it to 3D scan and then re-print a mini. However, if you're CAD modelling say, a las-2plas turret for your Razorback, it's a whole different story because it'll make it easier to have conversions or getting parts for those options that are not supplied for out-of-the-box.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Why isnt this just like recasting? I made a post about recasting out of production minis and got my thread shut down. just saying printing minis seems to me to be thing just diffrent medium.

Good point.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
Why isnt this just like recasting? I made a post about recasting out of production minis and got my thread shut down. just saying printing minis seems to me to be thing just diffrent medium.

It's the same thing, basically, if you use it to 3D scan and then re-print a mini. However, if you're CAD modelling say, a las-2plas turret for your Razorback, it's a whole different story because it'll make it easier to have conversions or getting parts for those options that are not supplied for out-of-the-box.

I get the difference of printing your own minis. There is just a lot of talk about this and I know I couldn’t sculpt my way out of a wet paper bag. So then we come to 3D scanners. I know some talk has been raised about those. Also some talk about "not space marines". So how is it different? Sounds like some 9th circle of hell stuff to me (this is reserved for betrayers and mutineers). As a community we need to pic a side not GW. GW is in the right for not embracing this technology. GW makes a product. If you want to play with GW stuff they sell it. This is me playing devil’s advocate here and saying clearly “We as a community have drawn a line in the sand that says recasting is bad. We as a community need to draw a line in the sand that says we will not pirate GW minis.” Any talk about if this will break GW is moot if everyone currently buying GW stuff will continue to buy it and not pirate it.

This is outside of my personal feeling about GW or recasting.


As a side not my 3d printer is on back order. I might get it in a month.

Soooo. in your logic GW should not embrace moulds because people can use them to potentially make copies of stuff, you know the same moulds they use to make their own models.....

No, the technology is there to be embraced, the fact it can be used to copy models is irrelevant to it potential for companies and customers.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Soooo. in your logic GW should not embrace moulds because people can use them to potentially make copies of stuff, you know the same moulds they use to make their own models.....

No, the technology is there to be embraced, the fact it can be used to copy models is irrelevant to it potential for companies and customers.

Exactly. 3D printing is going to happen regardless of how GW feels about it or not. That's why it's called destructive innovation.

PsychoticStorm wrote:Soooo. in your logic GW should not embrace moulds because people can use them to potentially make copies of stuff, you know the same moulds they use to make their own models.....

No, the technology is there to be embraced, the fact it can be used to copy models is irrelevant to it potential for companies and customers.

Not so much. Technology to make molds already exists. I can make you a mold in about 14 hours. The community has spoken out against this practice. I say community since that is what dakka is a community. Saying its different just because it’s a 3D printer is mincing words. If the community has said it doesn’t like pirating then saying GW will fall because of 3d is a falsity. If A equals pirating minis and B equals the community then C equals the community zero tolerance towards the act. If you change the medium used to pirate it doesn’t change the equation at all. GW will continue to operate as normal with the support of the community that embraces antipiracy. this is like saying the music industry should embrace personal cd burners.

Again this is outside my views of recasting or GW. this is just following logic to its logical conclusion.

Enigwolf wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Soooo. in your logic GW should not embrace moulds because people can use them to potentially make copies of stuff, you know the same moulds they use to make their own models.....

No, the technology is there to be embraced, the fact it can be used to copy models is irrelevant to it potential for companies and customers.

Exactly. 3D printing is going to happen regardless of how GW feels about it or not. That's why it's called destructive innovation.

It is exactly that, destructive and creats a moral gray area that some feel ok opperating in.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Soooo. in your logic GW should not embrace moulds because people can use them to potentially make copies of stuff, you know the same moulds they use to make their own models.....

No, the technology is there to be embraced, the fact it can be used to copy models is irrelevant to it potential for companies and customers.

Exactly. 3D printing is going to happen regardless of how GW feels about it or not. That's why it's called destructive innovation.

It is exactly that, destructive and creats a moral gray area that some feel ok opperating in.

Exactly. Recasting using 3D printing is no more moral than recasting using moulds, or robbing a bank, or taking candy from a defenseless kid. This is what will happen to you if you do:

So the question of the forum was will a cheap personal 3D printer ruin GW. NO, because the community will not pirate GW minis. If you still think yes then you’re clearly morally ok with pirating and well, good for you. Doesn’t change the fact that if you like what GW is putting out mini-wise then you will buy their stuff or copy it. This has nothing to do with GW. This is a personal choice and the community has a zero tolerance on recasting.
I have personally tried and failed to raise the question of recasting for the historical value. Some OOP sculpts are becoming so rare and hard to get that you will only ever see them on the interwebs. When I raised this question in a roundabout way I was informed of the zero tolerance policy on recasting. So recasting became akin at least in my head as a hardcore Lego collector to megablocks.

Yet again I say this logical view point is not based on my personal feelings about GW or recasting, but I do hate megabloks.

If 3D printing ever ruins GW it will be from GW's inability to adapt to a new era of technology and not from recasting GW models.

It will not be the cause, just another symptom.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
This is a personal choice and the community has a zero tolerance on recasting.

It does?

If that was remotely true, you wouldn't have the over abundance of recasters that you have today since the practice wouldn't be profitable.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
This is a personal choice and the community has a zero tolerance on recasting.

It does?

If that was remotely true, you wouldn't have the over abundance of recasters that you have today since the practice wouldn't be profitable.

That's a funny thing about context. If you take only the part that you want you can disprove anything.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
This is a personal choice and the community has a zero tolerance on recasting.

It does?

If that was remotely true, you wouldn't have the over abundance of recasters that you have today since the practice wouldn't be profitable.

Want to know the problem with recasting? You can go ahead and recast all you like (not saying that you do, but, using it as a form of speech), but if it's to a point where it drives GW out of business, who is going to sculpt all those nice models to be recasted?

Recasting is a big issue, some sectors thrive on it, some sectors are better without it, for some sectors is irrelevant.

For our tiny segment that is miniature wargames, recasting is generally a bad thing, 3D printing though will not make the recasting worsen or be more widespread, present technology is faster, cheaper and more difficult to detect than a 3D print.

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
So the question of the forum was will a cheap personal 3D printer ruin GW. NO, because the community will not pirate GW minis.

Recasters keep growing and sell their stuff on a regular basis. Furthermore, a lot of recasters now produce at a pretty good level at a MUCH lower cost. So, saying the community will not pirate GW miniatures is not really realistic given the current situation...and 3d printers will make the stuff a LOT cheaper. I don't care for GW making huge losses at that point. With their completely unjustified price increases, they are making it very easy for re-casters / printers to draw potential customers in.

What I DO care about is the smaller tabletop companies as they really need their customers and they will suffer as well. But alas, it's going to happen. It will take a few years, but affordable home 3d printing will happen anyway.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Devoted-to-the-machine wrote:
So the question of the forum was will a cheap personal 3D printer ruin GW. NO, because the community will not pirate GW minis.

Recasters keep growing and sell their stuff on a regular basis. Furthermore, a lot of recasters now produce at a pretty good level at a MUCH lower cost. So, saying the community will not pirate GW miniatures is not really realistic given the current situation...and 3d printers will make the stuff a LOT cheaper. I don't care for GW making huge losses at that point. With their completely unjustified price increases, they are making it very easy for re-casters / printers to draw potential customers in.

What I DO care about is the smaller tabletop companies as they really need their customers and they will suffer as well. But alas, it's going to happen. It will take a few years, but affordable home 3d printing will happen anyway.

I agree that regardless of my thoughts on the “community” tolerating piracy, the use of personal 3D printers to pirate is going to happen. I wanted to play the devil’s advocate and point out that conversations about 3D printers are really a conversation about piracy and as it directly relates to mini gaming, recasting. GW will not embrace this destructive technology because that would be like the music industry embracing personal CD burners. In fact they might join the growing list of companies that are currently trying to sue the makers of 3D printers and scanners. Like the music industry tried and failed at.


I want to coin a term for recasting in the 3D scanner aspect. Any thoughts?

The thing is that recasting itself is only...well...recasting existing stuff, whereas 3d printers would allow you to individually design parts for your models, original parts you thought of and built yourself.

3d printer discussions usually become recast discussions because it's the thing most people will use it for. Including myself.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The thing is that recasting itself is only...well...recasting existing stuff, whereas 3d printers would allow you to individually design parts for your models, original parts you thought of and built yourself.

3d printer discussions usually become recast discussions because it's the thing most people will use it for. Including myself.

As I stated before I cant sculpt my way out of a wet paper bag. I can say I have cast some things. I can say I will cast some things. If these things fall under fair use law or copyright infringement I don’t know nor care. I am not selling them or passing them off as my own. I can say as an average tax paying lower middle class Joe is that, if given a 3D printer in a month (Because mine is back ordered till then) and also a 3D scanner (photon 3D scanner 443$ should be ordered soon) I will probably use them to make stuff. Just like I did when I got my cd burner. If my thoughts are like other and I am not a unique snow flake, then piracy is really what will kill GW. Kinda poetic, in a sick way.

Well this just starter circulating on the internet as an example of what people are doing in the miniature field with 3D printers. Body was printed at 150 micron and the head at 75 micron. The designer does not appear to wish to make the 3D files available to others, but appears to be willing to sell the models if he gets permission to.

Figure is 6 inches tall for referance.

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/120121-6-tall-posable-atlas-picture-overload/

With arguments for what printers can be used for; was at the hardware store this weekend needing a hook for a picture frame and some nails. Imagine that entire fastener section at the store gone because we can print out the hanger and nails we need at home.

Sigvatr wrote: I don't care for GW making huge losses at that point.

So you're basically saying that... You don't care if GW goes out of business, and both Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k die?

silent25 wrote:Well this just starter circulating on the internet as an example of what people are doing in the miniature field with 3D printers. Body was printed at 150 micron and the head at 75 micron. The designer does not appear to wish to make the 3D files available to others, but appears to be willing to sell the models if he gets permission to.

Figure is 6 inches tall for referance.

Spoiler:

http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/120121-6-tall-posable-atlas-picture-overload/

With arguments for what printers can be used for; was at the hardware store this weekend needing a hook for a picture frame and some nails. Imagine that entire fastener section at the store gone because we can print out the hanger and nails we need at home.

That must've taken almost a week or two to print. 150 microns at high resolution? That takes a LONG time. You can clearly see the huge difference between 75 and 150 microns too. Also, bearing in mind that that's 6-inches tall, you see all the cross-hatch lines? Imagine how much worse they'll be for a 28mm miniature and trying to paint over that.

 Enigwolf wrote:

That must've taken almost a week or two to print. 150 microns at high resolution? That takes a LONG time. You can clearly see the huge difference between 75 and 150 microns too. Also, bearing in mind that that's 6-inches tall, you see all the cross-hatch lines? Imagine how much worse they'll be for a 28mm miniature and trying to paint over that.

Better shot of the head and body for comparison:

Bear in mind again that it's 6 inches tall, which is about 4.5x the size of a 28mm miniature. So scale those lines and defects up by 5 times. And that's for a 150 microns print at full resolution. I haven't seen a 3D printer less than $500 that can print at 150 microns for that size, either.

Is this though the best example one could find?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Is this though the best example one could find?

As someone who's been following 3D printing for a while, it's the first I've seen. 150 micron printers aren't cheap.

I love how these questions are always framed against Games Workshop. Have you people not considered that this will affect Privateer Press, Wyrd Miniatures, and all your precious Kickstarters as well? It is not only GW that has the potential to suffer.

However, pointing this out does not reinforce your preferred anti- GW narrative. I swear there is a new thread every day on this site about how this, that or the other new development will bring about the downfall of the evil empire.

and furthermore, the first post claiming that these machines will print pro-painted miniatures is laughable. Then again, considering the majority of you field spam armies of grey plastic I suppose you wouldn't know much about painting anyway.

775B53 wrote:
Then again, considering the majority of you field spam armies of grey plastic I suppose you wouldn't know much about painting anyway.

Are you referring to the majority of Dakkaites here?