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You can scrub me if i am starting something already in the works, but the N&R thread is freaking 170+ pages.

I typically have used Wraithlords as a fire base, but with the increased pt cost, it looks like they are going to be stripped down anti horde for me, which isnt that bad consideing. So my castle will now be comprised of 2 Lords sitting with flamers and waiting for groups to try and come take my obj, area of the board. To support them, the Scatter Laser, Brightlance combo on 3 the war walkers actually got 15 pts cheaper and more effective, imo.

Nice.

Anyone else got some items to throw in?

Update Iyanden - On page 13 if anyone wants to file through

Army Of Iyanden Rules:

Voice of Twilight - replaces Conceal as the Primaris
Blessing. Warp Charge 2.
Gives ALL Wraith BATTLE FOCUS AND FURIOUS CHARGE within a 12" bubble.

Warlord Traits:

1) Roll a D3 - Warlord gets this many rerolls for To Hit, To Wound, Armour Pen and Saves.
2) All friendly units FNP 6+ within 12".
3) Warlord and unit - Hatred.
4) Spirit Mark up to two enemy units per turn.
5) +1 to Deny The Witch.
6) Warlord ReRolls all failed armour saves. If he loses a wound, he loses this trait.

Gifts of Asuryan

Celestial Lance
It's a lance like the Shining Spears get with AP2 and Str 8 when shooting. Has Spirit Shatter: if you kill a Character or MC put a large blast where it died. Str is equal to the dead things toughness. AP -

Soulshrive
AP 2 Master Crafted Melee weapon with STR 3* and Spiritstealer - add one to the strength of the weapon for each unsaved wound made.

Wraithforge Stone
During the Movement Phase, nominate a single Wraithlord or Wraithknight and roll a D6. 1 or 2, nothing happens. 3+ it regains a wound suffered earlier in the battle.

Guardian Helm of Xellethon
Auto Pass Look Out Sir when in WG or WB units. WG and WB in this unit can make and accept challenges.

Spear of Teuthlas - Psyker Only.
Singing Spear, Str 9 at range. Has Rending, Armourbane and Fleshbane.

Heroes of Iyanden.
A Wraithlord or Wraithknight may be the Warlord.

Shadow Council.
5 Spiritseers for one HQ.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe get a sticky so we dont have wildfire posts

Wraithlords got a big boost in versatility - Extra attack, AND they can take a full non-TL ranged load-out along with a sword.

The old AT layout was EML/BL. For less than 10% more cost, you can get a wraithlord with a sword and two brightlances.

Also - wraithseer can nominate a target to reroll 1's to hit.

Boost, all around.

Autarch didn't get directly buffed, but, the boost to units which arrive from Deepstrike or outflank (spears, spiders, hawks, war walkers) means that controlling those reserves is more important.



Spiritseers can get warlock buff/nerf powers into non-standard units. Attach a wraithseer to a scorpion squad (AFTER power rolling!), and you can give them quite a bit of effectiveness, with 2+ armor, increased S, etc.

Spiritseers embedded in 'Guard squads not only can boost those squads, but if they roll renew, can cause problems by healing Lords or Knights nearby.

Wraithblades, Spiritseer, Eldrad, 3x Lords, could be a super tough nut to crack. Eldrad gets a 2/3 chance to obtain any single power in any single psychic discipline of interest.

Farseers with items from the remnants of glory + death mission might even approach being scary.

Fire dragons in a can is still perhaps the definition of "click, delete" for anything that isn't a blob. That many meltas can turn any low model count unit into ashes in seconds. Fire dragons are especially great for making Deathstar based lists cry.

I'm trying to figure out how to make a hunter Autarch by using the mantle of the laughing god and either a jet bike or the Faulchi's Wings (sp?).

I'm thinking Autarch on bike (T4), with Mantle, Turboboosting to a 2+ cover that's rerollable, giving him the character killing sword and going hunting.

Thoughts?

Edit: Autarch; Fusion Gun, Eldar Jet Bike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Shard of Anaris (175pts)

So you got this bro, turbo boosting around, popping off tanks, with a 2+ cover save (re-rollable!), hit & run, battle focus, fearless, T4, S5 (in CC), Rending; in challenges he has fleshbane AND instant death. He'll get 4 attacks base and 5 on the charge, plus a hammer of wrath. Still can manipulate your reserves.

Uhm, I'm making Eldar allies just to bring him. Because YES.

Also you can give him the phoenix gem, for resurrection.

You can also get him 3 weapons - a pistol plus two more, meaning you can swap one weapon for shard and maintain the +1 for two CCWs, as well as giving him a shooty gun to use in conjunction with the relentless-conferring jetbike (reaper launcher or the relic sniper rifle),

This gives you a shooty, killy, 3+, 4++ IC that is very maneuverable (jetbike), who has a 2+ rerollable cover save if he turboboosts (pretty sure).

Still just a T4 3W single model without EW. Could be an interesting dimension on a reserves heavy list running jetbikes, hawks/spiders, and war walkers.

 TheKbob wrote:
, I'm making Eldar allies just to bring him. Because YES.

Sounds like a lot of points for Heldrake food.

Could just kill the helldrake.

Can't use "helldrake food" as an argument against units, because its basically always true for eldar infantry of any kind.

Better to just point out the facts. He is a T4 3W IC that cannot join a unit. He's food to more than just a helldrake, but, with careful use, could be effective.

But, if you're going for max power, I think a farseer is still the best HQ for an allied detachment.

: Autarch; Fusion Gun, Eldar Jet Bike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Shard of Anaris (175pts)

So you got this bro, turbo boosting around, popping off tanks, with a 2+ cover save (re-rollable!), hit & run, battle focus, fearless, T4, S5 (in CC), Rending; in challenges he has fleshbane AND instant death. He'll get 4 attacks base and 5 on the charge, plus a hammer of wrath. Still can manipulate your reserves.

Uhm, I'm making Eldar allies just to bring him. Because YES.

Except as cool as it would be, remember, Mantle of the laughing god strips the IC status of said model. So no challenges making the shard useless.

A lot of old flavour in HQ given a polish up, but the be all and end all of Eldar HQ main or detachment is going to be the Farseer with Prescience AND Guide, both being primaris powers.

Backing that up is the Autarch for reserves control.

I'm trying to work out how good Vibrocannons are, if they are. Basic Farseer and 2 full batteries of Vibrocannons is 280 points, probably throw in runes for 10 or 15 or whatever too.

Each battery, two thirds of the time you're pushing on 3 Lascannons, otherwise you're striking with 2 Krak Missles from the battery with negligible chance you'll miss with two TL BS4 shots out of three.

Actually, I forgot he'd be T4, so he's not as vulnerable to Heldrakes as I thought. Still has a strong weakness to cover ignoring weapons, though. Does the Autarch still have a 4++?

The mantle only strips the IC rule. He's still a Character.

Why would he not have his forceshield? I'll be jumping with joy if my opponent baleflames me for half a wound.

That autarch build seems amazing to use on the table. Give in gem of the phoenix he is a killing machine.

FallenAfh wrote:
Why would he not have his forceshield? I'll be jumping with joy if my opponent baleflames me for half a wound.//quote]
Why would they flame? They'd Vector Strike instead.

Still is a 4++ and basically I hate that the entire meta revolves around the check "If(opposing player has heldrakes...)"

I hate that model, I hate that FAQ, I absolutely despise that it's the one thing that ruins so many of the fun builds I want to take.

But I digress. Now I want to build an army with 20 guardians with two weapon platforms on a comms relay, 5 jet biker squads, laughing autarch, farseer with seer council, some wraithfighters (whichever one is the better AA vehicle) and ally in DE to get the Baron with his bros, and a full beast squad.

Add some swooping hawks to help with tanks? Or something from DE?

Basically, a maniacally fast army with controlled reserves (to shoot down heldrakes with wraithfighters). I don't care if it's amazor, I just want to be silly.

Spiritseer + 10 Harlies w/kisses + Shadowseer sounds pretty sick to me.

Striking scorpions have a PF that strikes at intiative, that's a challenge monster if ever I saw one, plus its not a specialit weapon so he gets +1 attack with his chainsword, take crushing blow as well and you have 3/4 attacks at WS5 Str7 Ap2 I6 not too shabby.

Laser lock on the scatter laser is interesting, makes shooting from Falcons + Wave Serpents more effective.

Also Warlock on jetbike + w/3 Windriders 101pts take the primaris power and those bikes have 2+/3+ cover all the time.

What does everyone think of Fire Dragon spam to melt deathstars and make small model count armies cry?

 CaptainJay wrote:


Striking scorpions have a PF that strikes at intiative, that's a challenge monster if either I saw one, plus its not a specialit weapon so he gets +1 attack with his chainsword, take crushing blow as well and you have 3/4 attacks at WS5 Str7 Ap2 I6 not too shabby..

Holy cow you're right! I completely missed that. The scorpion's claw doesn't have Unwieldy! This makes it pretty much an automatic upgrade for Scorpion Exarchs.

 alienvalentine wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:


Striking scorpions have a PF that strikes at intiative, that's a challenge monster if either I saw one, plus its not a specialit weapon so he gets +1 attack with his chainsword, take crushing blow as well and you have 3/4 attacks at WS5 Str7 Ap2 I6 not too shabby..

Holy cow you're right! I completely missed that. The scorpion's claw doesn't have Unwieldy! This makes it pretty much an automatic upgrade for Scorpion Exarchs.

And now Karandras is even beefier.

Oh Image all those attacks karandras has against some base terminators... him alone eating right through them. (does anyone know if they get inv saves?)

 Kain wrote:

 alienvalentine wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:


Striking scorpions have a PF that strikes at intiative, that's a challenge monster if either I saw one, plus its not a specialit weapon so he gets +1 attack with his chainsword, take crushing blow as well and you have 3/4 attacks at WS5 Str7 Ap2 I6 not too shabby..

Holy cow you're right! I completely missed that. The scorpion's claw doesn't have Unwieldy! This makes it pretty much an automatic upgrade for Scorpion Exarchs.

And now Karandras is even beefier.

I7 Powerfists That's just mean!

 lepermessiah10 wrote:

: Autarch; Fusion Gun, Eldar Jet Bike, Mantle of the Laughing God, Shard of Anaris (175pts)

So you got this bro, turbo boosting around, popping off tanks, with a 2+ cover save (re-rollable!), hit & run, battle focus, fearless, T4, S5 (in CC), Rending; in challenges he has fleshbane AND instant death. He'll get 4 attacks base and 5 on the charge, plus a hammer of wrath. Still can manipulate your reserves.

Uhm, I'm making Eldar allies just to bring him. Because YES.

Except as cool as it would be, remember, Mantle of the laughing god strips the IC status of said model. So no challenges making the shard useless.

He loses IC but his unit type is still In (infantry) Ch(character) you don't need the IC USR to challenge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alienvalentine wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 alienvalentine wrote:

 CaptainJay wrote:


Striking scorpions have a PF that strikes at intiative, that's a challenge monster if either I saw one, plus its not a specialit weapon so he gets +1 attack with his chainsword, take crushing blow as well and you have 3/4 attacks at WS5 Str7 Ap2 I6 not too shabby..

Holy cow you're right! I completely missed that. The scorpion's claw doesn't have Unwieldy! This makes it pretty much an automatic upgrade for Scorpion Exarchs.

And now Karandras is even beefier.

I7 Powerfists That's just mean!

All for just 230pts!

Slayer222 wrote:
Oh Image all those attacks karandras has against some base terminators... him alone eating right through them. (does anyone know if they get inv saves?)

Regular teminators have a 5++ so yes. Karandras gets 6 attacks on the charge, so if my rough mathhammer is right he'll kill a slight fraction over 2 terminators by himself every turn.

 Kain wrote:
Fire dragons in a can is still perhaps the definition of "click, delete" for anything that isn't a blob. That many meltas can turn any low model count unit into ashes in seconds. Fire dragons are especially great for making Deathstar based lists cry.

This is a good point here - but with the addition of the Spirit Seerer and turning the basic WG into troops - is the Elite version (Dragons) needed?

I'm going to keep this about the WG/Dragon as the transport is negligible unless I'm missing something overall (besides you get more Dragons into it)

22pt dragon vs. 32pt WG base costs. Fusion vs. Cannon, not to mention the better overall stats of the WG being T6 and having the same 3+ save.

Upgrading a dragon to the Exarch does open up different possibilities and pending on the abilities you use can get you right up to the same point cost per unit.

Thoughts here?

What is his toughness?

The terminators do get to hit back with their PF remember, he might very well be an Instant Death victim in short order.

Then there are the TH/SS 3++ which are a pain for anyone.

Eternal warrior, so no ID, and no one wants to get into melee with Th/ss.

Dammit ninja'd

Are the Phoenix Lords aside from Asurmen still without invuls?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Fire dragons in a can is still perhaps the definition of "click, delete" for anything that isn't a blob. That many meltas can turn any low model count unit into ashes in seconds. Fire dragons are especially great for making Deathstar based lists cry.

This is a good point here - but with the addition of the Spirit Seerer and turning the basic WG into troops - is the Elite version (Dragons) needed?

I'm going to keep this about the WG/Dragon as the transport is negligible unless I'm missing something overall (besides you get more Dragons into it)

22pt dragon vs. 32pt WG base costs. Fusion vs. Cannon, not to mention the better overall stats of the WG being T6 and having the same 3+ save.

Upgrading a dragon to the Exarch does open up different possibilities and pending on the abilities you use can get you right up to the same point cost per unit.

Thoughts here?

I think that it's going to depend a lot on what, exactly, you want out of the units. I think that the Dragons are a little bit more versatile simply because of the higher model count available and the fact that their weapon is AP1 (which means it increases the chance of a vehicle just up and exploding). If you're assuming a transport is involved, then you're limited to 6 Wraithguard (192) vs. 10 Fire Dragons (220 plus Exarch, though I've not actually run 10 FD's nor an Exarch in forever).

In my opinion, Fire Dragons as stock are probably better in the sense of "when I want a target dead", except maybe when you're dealing with Tyranid Monstrous Creatures (but those are often dealt with better via heavy fire, which the rest of the Eldar Army handles just fine). The higher number of shots available means that they can more effectively deal with units like Terminators where the extra volume of fire matters (considering that both will wound on 2+) while also having a higher chance at outright vehicle destruction (50% 'Explode' results vs 33).

Against multi-wound units (Nobz, Spawn) the Wraithguard will be better thanks to ID, as well as high T critters with invulnerable saves. The Wraithguard will also be better at possibly destroying more than one target as Fire Dragons have a nasty habit of blowing up a tank and then dying (though their new 3+ save might improve that). So, if you want your click-delete unit to also subsequently contest an objective, Wraithguard might be the better choice.

If you want to create a unit specifically for targetting high-value infantry, I think that a better bet than either of these will be Wraithguard with D-Scythes. They're more expensive, but AP2 Flamers (which also ID on 6) are really hard to argue with. The problem is that these guys lose a bit of their versatility (they're not nearly as good at causing Penetration Hits on vehicles, but they do at least still have the ability to do so).

So, I think that it comes down to the following:
-Fire Dragons are better when something absolutely, positively, needs to depart the battlefield
-Wraithguard are better when you are willing to give up a little bit of killing power for a hell of a lot more durability
-D-Guard are better when you specifically want to ensure that you can eradicate high-value infantry

Note: I intentionally left out the discussion regarding Wraithguard as troops, because that's kind of a different topic and because the Spiritseer does add another 70-ish points to the cost of the Wraithguard in the army, which isn't quite trivial enough to ignore.

True, but you have to take some type of HQ anyway

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
Are the Phoenix Lords aside from Asurmen still without invuls?

fuegan has feel no pain and baharoth has a 4++ everyone else no invuln.

Asuraman is insane now with his 3 warlord traits if you roll the one that allows him to reroll 1s on armour saves....he can have a 2+/3++ rerolls 1's.....that dude can take a beating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Magc8Ball wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Fire dragons in a can is still perhaps the definition of "click, delete" for anything that isn't a blob. That many meltas can turn any low model count unit into ashes in seconds. Fire dragons are especially great for making Deathstar based lists cry.

This is a good point here - but with the addition of the Spirit Seerer and turning the basic WG into troops - is the Elite version (Dragons) needed?

I'm going to keep this about the WG/Dragon as the transport is negligible unless I'm missing something overall (besides you get more Dragons into it)

22pt dragon vs. 32pt WG base costs. Fusion vs. Cannon, not to mention the better overall stats of the WG being T6 and having the same 3+ save.

Upgrading a dragon to the Exarch does open up different possibilities and pending on the abilities you use can get you right up to the same point cost per unit.

Thoughts here?

I think that it's going to depend a lot on what, exactly, you want out of the units. I think that the Dragons are a little bit more versatile simply because of the higher model count available and the fact that their weapon is AP1 (which means it increases the chance of a vehicle just up and exploding). If you're assuming a transport is involved, then you're limited to 6 Wraithguard (192) vs. 10 Fire Dragons (220 plus Exarch, though I've not actually run 10 FD's nor an Exarch in forever).

In my opinion, Fire Dragons as stock are probably better in the sense of "when I want a target dead", except maybe when you're dealing with Tyranid Monstrous Creatures (but those are often dealt with better via heavy fire, which the rest of the Eldar Army handles just fine). The higher number of shots available means that they can more effectively deal with units like Terminators where the extra volume of fire matters (considering that both will wound on 2+) while also having a higher chance at outright vehicle destruction (50% 'Explode' results vs 33).

Against multi-wound units (Nobz, Spawn) the Wraithguard will be better thanks to ID, as well as high T critters with invulnerable saves. The Wraithguard will also be better at possibly destroying more than one target as Fire Dragons have a nasty habit of blowing up a tank and then dying (though their new 3+ save might improve that). So, if you want your click-delete unit to also subsequently contest an objective, Wraithguard might be the better choice.

If you want to create a unit specifically for targetting high-value infantry, I think that a better bet than either of these will be Wraithguard with D-Scythes. They're more expensive, but AP2 Flamers (which also ID on 6) are really hard to argue with. The problem is that these guys lose a bit of their versatility (they're not nearly as good at causing Penetration Hits on vehicles, but they do at least still have the ability to do so).

So, I think that it comes down to the following:
-Fire Dragons are better when something absolutely, positively, needs to depart the battlefield
-Wraithguard are better when you are willing to give up a little bit of killing power for a hell of a lot more durability
-D-Guard are better when you specifically want to ensure that you can eradicate high-value infantry

Note: I intentionally left out the discussion regarding Wraithguard as troops, because that's kind of a different topic and because the Spiritseer does add another 70-ish points to the cost of the Wraithguard in the army, which isn't quite trivial enough to ignore.

I think they are neck and neck but my bet is on wraithguard. I would rather shoot av14 vehicles at 12" at str 10 for a 33% chance of pen then move into 6" range for a 50% chance......yes ap1 is better than ap 2 but even with battle focus and fleet 6" is to close for comfort. Ill take 12" range with toughness 6 personally.

However!! I do not think they are hands down better than fire dragons, especially when you take into account the exarch at bs 5 with fast shot. NICE!!