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 sudojoe wrote:
Just some initial thoughts after playing a few test games with and against the new elder....

wave serpents are the bomb. Horribly hard to kill with that convert pens into glances and 4+ cover in the open

Two things here - how did you have yours equipped? I'm actually considering TL Bright Lances for mine, though the more oft TL SL is standard at this time.

Did you use the extra shield shots to any effect?

GTKA666 wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Anyone thought of using Illic with a battery of D-Cannons?

He could infiltrate them forward so that they establish board control early in the game and, with his split fire special rule, could engage multiple targets at once - or he could support other forces across the board with his sniper rifle while the battery bombards nearby targets.

I have, but after going over Illic's ability it has been assumed that the power works for illic alone.

How did you come to that conclusion?

His warlord trait states that he has split fire. The BRB pg. 42 states that if a unit has one model that contains this special rule then that unit can take a leadership test that, if passed, will allow a single model within that unit to fire at a different unit than the unit that the rest of the unit is firing at.

In no way does that state that the model within the unit with split fire has to be Illic.

Everyone is complaining that Banshees don't have Grenades, to you I say stop whining, your Saviour is at hand! Ally with a Dark Eldar Archon with a phantasm grenade launcher and suit all your offensive and defensive grenade needs, as well as having a great beat stick from the Archon himself.

 warpspider89 wrote:

GTKA666 wrote:

 warpspider89 wrote:
Anyone thought of using Illic with a battery of D-Cannons?

He could infiltrate them forward so that they establish board control early in the game and, with his split fire special rule, could engage multiple targets at once - or he could support other forces across the board with his sniper rifle while the battery bombards nearby targets.

I have, but after going over Illic's ability it has been assumed that the power works for illic alone.

How did you come to that conclusion?

His warlord trait states that he has split fire. The BRB pg. 42 states that if a unit has one model that contains this special rule then that unit can take a leadership test that, if passed, will allow a single model within that unit to fire at a different unit than the unit that the rest of the unit is firing at.

In no way does that state that the model within the unit with split fire has to be Illic.

I am sorry I just read "he could infiltrate and just assumed it was another "hey lets have this unit pop up in their face" kinda thing. Apologies your statement was correct.

Guys, unless you're Shrike, HQs don't confer infiltrate. At best they confer outflank. Because of how HQs attach to units (Either in reserve or after they deploy) you miss the chance to actually infiltrate unless both the Unit and HQ already have it.
Now Im confused. Looking up quotes to verify this, please ignore.


As for Illic's special rule, it grants him the Infiltrate USR which does allow for Outflank with whoever he's attached to. Everything else is Illic only though.

S.K.Ren wrote:
Guys, unless you're Shrike, HQs don't confer infiltrate. At best they confer outflank. Because of how HQs attach to units (Either in reserve or after they deploy) you miss the chance to actually infiltrate unless both the Unit and HQ already have it.
Now Im confused. Looking up quotes to verify this, please ignore.


As for Illic's special rule, it grants him the Infiltrate USR which does allow for Outflank with whoever he's attached to. Everything else is Illic only though.

he can also infiltrate with other infiltrating units, just they have to follow the restrictions of infiltrating.

As per the BRB pg. 38 - any unit that contains at least one model with the Infiltrate USR may...

Found it
BRB Pg 39, emphasis mine

Joining and Leaving a Unit
An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

In order for them to deploy in coherency and infiltrate, they would have to both have infiltrate since the IC joins after deployment.

GTKA666 wrote:he can also infiltrate with other infiltrating units, just they have to follow the restrictions of infiltrating.

Yeah, but I didn't think there was any question of that. I was just trying to diffuse the question of whether Illic's Walker of the Hidden Path conferred anything to another unit (which is does, Infiltrate.)

S.K.Ren wrote:
Joining and Leaving a Unit
An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

In order for them to deploy in coherency and infiltrate, they would have to both have infiltrate since the IC joins after deployment.
[/quote

It says that the IC begins the game with a unit, which means that the IC has not joined after deployment. The unit would, as such, not need to have infiltrate. The unit would just need to be within coherency with Illic, which is an entirely normal requirement for any unit.

Alright guys, I bought 3 boxes of Wraithguards. Turned 5 of them into magnetised scythes/cannons

but for the next 10 I don't think the magnets will work out well due to how heavy their weapons are.

So Axes or Swords..?

 warpspider89 wrote:

S.K.Ren wrote:
Joining and Leaving a Unit
An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit,
either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

In order for them to deploy in coherency and infiltrate, they would have to both have infiltrate since the IC joins after deployment.
[/quote

It says that the IC begins the game with a unit, which means that the IC has not joined after deployment. The unit would, as such, not need to have infiltrate. The unit would just need to be within coherency with Illic, which is an entirely normal requirement for any unit.

That would be true if it wasn't for the second half of the sentence, and the critical wording of "by" making that deployed in coherency thing a requirement for beginning the game as a unit. You don't start the game with them as a unit, then deploy them in coherency. You deploy them in coherency, following each part's respective rules for doing so, and this allows them to become a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacob29 wrote:
Alright guys, I bought 3 boxes of Wraithguards. Turned 5 of them into magnetised scythes/cannons

but for the next 10 I don't think the magnets will work out well due to how heavy their weapons are.

So Axes or Swords..?

How easy or hard was that magnet job? I'm planning on doing the same myself once they come in.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jacob29 wrote:
Alright guys, I bought 3 boxes of Wraithguards. Turned 5 of them into magnetised scythes/cannons

but for the next 10 I don't think the magnets will work out well due to how heavy their weapons are.

So Axes or Swords..?

How easy or hard was that magnet job? I'm planning on doing the same myself once they come in.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

That would be true if it wasn't for the second half of the sentence, and the critical wording of "by" making that deployed in coherency thing a requirement for beginning the game as a unit. You don't start the game with them as a unit, then deploy them in coherency. You deploy them in coherency, following each part's respective rules for doing so, and this allows them to become a unit.

The meaning of the word "begin" is that it happens first. How can something happen subsequent to the first thing, IE. after deployment, if it happens first? That is what you are claiming - that deployment happens and then an IC begins the game with the unit. It doesn't make sense.

It is my understanding that the rule reads like this:

If you will deploy them in coherency (as is always required), then the IC can begin the game in the unit.

Shrike has been pulling this off for ages. Since when is this a problem?

No, 'Begin' implies the start. 'Begin [...] by [...]' implies that 'By' is the process that achieves what you 'Begin'. They have to be deployed in coherency for the IC to begin the game as a part of another unit.

From the Space Marines FAQ

Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule).

It specifies before deployment, that's why people let it work. Otherwise I'd say Shrike got nerfed in 6th and until a new SM codex comes out, deal with it. Personally I think Shrike is suffering from a defunct rules definition. I'm guessing Infiltrate didn't confer on a '1 model in the unit' basis like it does now, and no one has bothered to clarify it.

Edit: I'm not supporting Shrike being the exception, merely pointing out why people let him slide.

Surely a squad of three WW armed with scatter lasers is the best anti-air. As each time you roll for the second laser you get to re-roll for all those failed 6s.

 Heezayy wrote:
Surely a squad of three WW armed with scatter lasers is the best anti-air. As each time you roll for the second laser you get to re-roll for all those failed 6s.

Negative. SL go first/same time, so they TL the weapon that fires after according to how the rule is written.

S.K.Ren wrote:
No, 'Begin' implies the start. 'Begin [...] by [...]' implies that 'By' is the process that achieves what you 'Begin'. They have to be deployed in coherency for the IC to begin the game as a part of another unit.

From the Space Marines FAQ

Page 92 Kayvaan Shrike, See, But Remain Unseen.
Replace this entry with the following:
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit
chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before
deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate special rule).

It specifies before deployment, that's why it works. Otherwise I'd say Shrike got nerfed in 6th and until a new SM codex comes out, deal with it. Personally I think Shrike is suffering from a defunct rules definition. I'm guessing Infiltrate didn't confer on a '1 model in the unit' basis like it does now, and no one has bothered to clarify it.

By your own logic they would not benefit because he could not have joined them [before deployment] to give them the benefit of his special rule. You argued that units deploy, then the IC joins them, and then they can benefit from the special rules of an IC. Therefore shrike couldn't join a unit before deployment an give them infiltrate, which he has to have joined before deployment to so.

The game begins before deployment. It begins before terrain setup. It begins before the first step: mission selection. You are confusing the beginning of the game with the start of turn one.

Sorry for derailing this thread with my tactical suggestion. I have started a thread in the rules forum so that this can be discussed in the appropriate location.

Ah right, I see. Thanks for clarifying! So what model in the new codex makes full advantage of this laser lock rule?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 Heezayy wrote:
Surely a squad of three WW armed with scatter lasers is the best anti-air. As each time you roll for the second laser you get to re-roll for all those failed 6s.

Negative. SL go first/same time, so they TL the weapon that fires after according to how the rule is written.

Yeah, this is right. Scatters + Flakk EML is probably the way to go for AA Walkers.

Edit: @ Heezayy: It's mainly Wraithknights/Lords, Walkers and Wave Serpents. Wave Serpents probably benefit the most, being able to then fire a TL SC and TL Shield-Exploding shots, if you wish to do so.

On the Illic topic, there's a whole thread on the subject in YMDC, take your pondering there!

I'm going to second one of the above poster's questions: On Wraithblades, what's best, Axes or Swords? I wanted to go with swords for the extra attack and I4. I think with a Spiritseer in tow, this is the way forward, as you have a decent chance of rolling either Enhance/Drain, Protect/Jinx and/or Empower/Enervate all of which really help dual sword Wraithblades a lot more than their axe-counterparts.

Another question, though, is whether Wraithblades are worth taking at all? It's a heavily contested FOC (though they all are) and I'm very tempted to assemble my Wraithguard kit so I can field 6 D-Sycthe Wraithguard in a WS.

Also, I'm planning on running an Autarch with Firesabre. It's mainly for the reserve shenanigans, to help my Warp Spiders and Crimson Hunter, but I wanted to make the most of his pretty decent combat potential. What would be the best unit to put him with, do you reckon? Wraithblades? A unit of DA with a killy-Exarch as a sort of charge deterrent or to help them fight in CC in a pinch? Decisions, decisions...

 Heezayy wrote:
Ah right, I see. Thanks for clarifying! So what model in the new codex makes full advantage of this laser lock rule?

Falcons can have 2 weapons that aren't Scatter Lasers, so it's got the most.

Surprisingly, Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, and Holo-field is also one of the only vehicle options to go down in points with this codex. It's the dark horse of Heavy Support, as it's clearly the best vehicle, and probably no worse than the third best in slot at all (after Support Batteries and Dark Reapers).

I probably wouldn't go with Wraithblades, they seem kind of underwhelming for what you pay. Although I've gotta say, the dual swords is by far the coolest looking version of that kit.

I think you'd get more assault mileage out of equivalent points of Scorpions or Harlequins, as they both have better ways of getting into combat. WB's may be good just as a fire magnet, though. I'm planning to magnetize them to swap between cannons and scythes. I think they are better as a shooting unit, but I won't know for sure until both are playtested.

I'm going cheap, so I'm looking at WW with SL/BL or SC set-ups. It's serious points to get EML on the table now - though BS 4 dual SL is still a St 6 pump wagon.

And yeah - keeping the serpents base TL SL with SC and Shield shots getting to benefit from the laser lock and shield shots ignoring cover I think is going to be a BIG deal.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Heezayy wrote:
Ah right, I see. Thanks for clarifying! So what model in the new codex makes full advantage of this laser lock rule?

Falcons can have 2 weapons that aren't Scatter Lasers, so it's got the most.

Surprisingly, Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, and Holo-field is also one of the only vehicle options to go down in points with this codex. It's the dark horse of Heavy Support, as it's clearly the best vehicle, and probably no worse than the third best in slot at all (after Support Batteries and Dark Reapers).

Really, what makes you say that? I still prefer Fire Prisms and War Walkers, and Dark Reapers seem to have much improved, but I'd like to hear why you think Falcons and Batteries got so much better.

I know we said this earlier - but they should have moved the Falcon to the Fast Slot.

I prefer Lords and Walkers myself and actually trying to trade my falcon load out right now.

Probably regret it when they "errata/nerf" something else, but so is life.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Surprisingly, Falcon w/ Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon, and Holo-field is also one of the only vehicle options to go down in points with this codex. It's the dark horse of Heavy Support, as it's clearly the best vehicle, and probably no worse than the third best in slot at all (after Support Batteries and Dark Reapers).

Really, what makes you say that? I still prefer Fire Prisms and War Walkers, and Dark Reapers seem to have much improved, but I'd like to hear why you think Falcons and Batteries got so much better.

Batteries (at least the weaver/vibro variety) are absolutely the best place to shelter Farseers. With T7, Shouded, and plenty of throw away wounds, you aren't going to find a place that is cheap, safe, and effective. Three twin-linked lascannons doesn't hurt either.

Falcons are better than Fire Prisms, objectively. Prisms only offering is in the form of the large blast, as Pulse laser beats the single and small blast version unless you're talking about twin-linking it and firing it at a deep-striked regular Terminator formation (not Paladins nor storm shields). That situation just doesn't come up much. As far as the large blast goes, it's good at killing a bunch of marines. Well, any ponits you spend in the Eldar codex is roughly the same as any other points at Marine-killing duty.

Seriously, do the math on that. They couldn't have come up with a better internal balance on marine killing if they had done actual math (which we all know they certainly did not). So the only thing a Fire Prism is good at is the same thing nearly the rest of your army is also as good at.

War-walkers, yes, better, but also more expensive and easier to kill. Yep, they are easier to kill now than they used to be. No save and not opened top was tougher. Now they will be exploded by random bolters and close combat attacks, not just inevitably hull pointed by them. I'm not saying their trash, I'm saying they aren't as good as they used to be, nor are they better than Dark Reapers.

Having both reaper launchers and krak missiles on an infantry sized, 3+ save, mobile platform is just phenomenal. Sure, they are expensive, but that doesn't stop Broadsides from being good either. I'd rather have 5 Reapers (with a starshot, fast shot, night vision exarch) than 3 walkers for roughly the same cost. The only targets Walkers would be better on is double-lance vs AV 14, or side shots on vehicles. Nothing is good against AV14 from range, so better doesn't mean much, and, this is a personal preference, but I'd rather have the extra turn(s) on the Reapers, since outflanking is still gambling.

If you want to say "I think War Walkers are competitve and use them over any other Heavy," I wouldn't actually disagree with you. They're pretty good, and if that's your taste, we just differ on taste.

Fire Prisms are right out though.

any insight into what size template the shadow weaver is suppose to use? Item description says its blast, army summary in the back of the book says large blast. Do we refer to the Main rule book's ruling of when in doubt roll a dice to decide?

small, FAQ.

Jump shoot Jump walkers seem a lot more survivable.

Actually you are ignoring the S9 lance mode that is one of the best ways to kill AV 13+ in the codex.

Not that I entirely disagree with you almost every unit in the HS slot is great in the right list (except arguably the knight).

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Everyone is complaining that Banshees don't have Grenades, to you I say stop whining, your Saviour is at hand! Ally with a Dark Eldar Archon with a phantasm grenade launcher and suit all your offensive and defensive grenade needs, as well as having a great beat stick from the Archon himself.

That's a good idea.

 ironicsilence wrote:
any insight into what size template the shadow weaver is suppose to use? Item description says its blast, army summary in the back of the book says large blast. Do we refer to the Main rule book's ruling of when in doubt roll a dice to decide?

There is a FAQ out already clarifying this. Its a small blast.