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Puscifer wrote:
Swooping Hawks...

Now, this is a unit that is much maligned in Eldar armies.

Some say too expensive... Too fragile... Too weak... I think otherwise.

This unit is more of a scalpel in an army of sledgehammers and there are ways to make this unit über.

Here's what I think could work...

1) Go big or go home. Six Hawks minimum. You get that great cover ignoring pie plate on a DS and then you can shoot the living bejesus out of what you've bombed.

2) Go crazy... Take more than one squad. Two squads will pretty much destroy a hordesque unit of stuff with the pies and sixty plus shots. Then you run the squads into cover and if they're around the next turn... See below for ways to make them survive... You can either repeat the process again next turn or go after a vehicle. Ten Haywire Grenades in assault will destroy any ground based vehicle.

3) Ways of making them survive... Trickery. Eldar have great distraction units. Wraithknights in particular are great for this, as are large defender squads and other prime dmg dealing targets. Present your enemy with a "better" target and watch as your Hawks either blast the bejesus out of another unit or tank or bugger off next turn to do it all over again.

I think they can be made to work with big results.

Hawks are good now imo and I'm adding a full ten strong squad to my 1500 list with an Exarch with Hawks Talon. They arrive and blow up a cheap horde that's objective camping, throw lots of shots into them before running off and can make charges hard work even for fast assault units.

A ten man squad will destroy a Guard Heavy Weapons Squad each turn even if they have cover saves.

They are also the best unit for taking down Walkers in close combat as Haywire grenades strike at initiative and are less likely to explode the target than Melta Bombs.

EDIT: The Grenade Pack also can be dropped on a different unit to the one you shoot so long as the squad lands somewhere they don't have LOS to the grenade packed unit. The rules say you must shoot it "If possible" but the Grenade Pack attack doesn't need LOS to fire.

Lastly there is no other unit that can cross the entire table in a single turn to contest an objective. Skyleap on turn 4, arrive turn 5 and contest. Hit n Run is a must imo so they can't be bogged down in combat as they will only fail to disengage if you roll a 6.

The issue was not whether Hawks were good ... they are. The issue is are they better than other fast attack choices ... shining spears can be made to work too ... I'm not taking them though.

Rob451 wrote:

EDIT: The Grenade Pack also can be dropped on a different unit to the one you shoot so long as the squad lands somewhere they don't have LOS to the grenade packed unit. The rules say you must shoot it "If possible" but the Grenade Pack attack doesn't need LOS to fire.

More eldar trickery

But (provided this is true), wouldn't this tactic be better with a smaller squad to negate said LOS issue?

Well, 6 is the minimum to make the pie.

I was thinking of taking 2 squads of 6 or one squad of 10, but I don't know if I can justify taking 2 squads of 10.

It's not that it's a points sink, it really isn't, but I need to have answers to other things.

It seems to me that each squad has a sweet spot when it comes to squad size.

Avengers: 10.

Dragons: 6.

Scorpions: 10

Banshees: If you take them (which you shouldn't because they are terrible) 10.

Hawks: 6, but they can be very effective in 10s.

Spiders: The jury is out for me on their number. They can be really good in large numbers if hunting vehicles and performing assassination runs.

Spears: I don't like them or know enough to comment on this unit.

Hunters: 1 and only 1 and that is the Exarch.

Reapers: Now, I want to say a full squad of 10, but I think 6 might be a really good number. Also, I wouldn't bother equipping the Exarch with anything but a Reaper Launcher. The Starswarm Missiles are actually really good and with Fast Shot, you basically turn your Exarch into a better Heavy Bolter. Add Starstrike to everything.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

Rob451 wrote:

EDIT: The Grenade Pack also can be dropped on a different unit to the one you shoot so long as the squad lands somewhere they don't have LOS to the grenade packed unit. The rules say you must shoot it "If possible" but the Grenade Pack attack doesn't need LOS to fire.

More eldar trickery

But (provided this is true), wouldn't this tactic be better with a smaller squad to negate said LOS issue?

It's a little easier but considering that the grenade pack is only used when deep striking the squad will be in a compact formation anyway. The other way is to land so one squad member is within 24" of the grenade pack target and then use Battle Focus to run the squad out of range of that unit but in range of another before shooting.

Oh, I like that... I'm glad I started this thread

Puscifer wrote:Swooping Hawks...

Now, this is a unit that is much maligned in Eldar armies.

Some say too expensive... Too fragile... Too weak... I think otherwise

In my opinion, the way to run swooping Hawks is as follows:

A unit of 6, with an Exarch with Hawk's Talon. It's only a little over 100 points, so is nice and cheap. You can even forego the Exarch and his weapon if you want, putting the unit to only 96 points. Deep Strike this unit right next to an enemy tank. I literally mean, right next to. Use the Grenade Pack to bomb a nice horde unit, preferably one that's objective camping or hugging cover. Just select the best target. Make sure you DS the Hawks so said vehicle is obscuring their view to the unit they just bombed, so you don't have to shoot at them. Then, use the Exarch's S5 weapon, plus a Haywire Grenade, to blast the back of this tank, doing so damage, if not taking it out. You can run, and then shoot, if you need to get round the back. If your opponent shoots the Hawks, well, they've done their bit and he's just wasted shots he could be shooting at the rest of your force. If he ignores them, they can charge the same vehicle and destroy outright, if they didn't before, or just be a general pain.

Whilst the Hawks do face stiff competition from the Spiders, I think they serve very different roles, so it's not usually an option about which unit is simply the superior, it's about which one's best for the list. For example, in one of my lists I've written, there was plenty of AP3/AP2 but not much in the way of dealing with Hordes. I'd have liked something else to help take them out. I had just over 100 points to spend, so I added in the above unit.

 The Shadow wrote:

Puscifer wrote:Swooping Hawks...

Now, this is a unit that is much maligned in Eldar armies.

Some say too expensive... Too fragile... Too weak... I think otherwise

In my opinion, the way to run swooping Hawks is as follows:

A unit of 6, with an Exarch with Hawk's Talon. It's only a little over 100 points, so is nice and cheap. You can even forego the Exarch and his weapon if you want, putting the unit to only 96 points. Deep Strike this unit right next to an enemy tank. I literally mean, right next to. Use the Grenade Pack to bomb a nice horde unit, preferably one that's objective camping or hugging cover. Just select the best target. Make sure you DS the Hawks so said vehicle is obscuring their view to the unit they just bombed, so you don't have to shoot at them. Then, use the Exarch's S5 weapon, plus a Haywire Grenade, to blast the back of this tank, doing so damage, if not taking it out. You can run, and then shoot, if you need to get round the back. If your opponent shoots the Hawks, well, they've done their bit and he's just wasted shots he could be shooting at the rest of your force. If he ignores them, they can charge the same vehicle and destroy outright, if they didn't before, or just be a general pain.

Whilst the Hawks do face stiff competition from the Spiders, I think they serve very different roles, so it's not usually an option about which unit is simply the superior, it's about which one's best for the list. For example, in one of my lists I've written, there was plenty of AP3/AP2 but not much in the way of dealing with Hordes. I'd have liked something else to help take them out. I had just over 100 points to spend, so I added in the above unit.

The Deepstrike tactic to pop a Tank is best with Warp Spiders and it fits their role perfectly. I actually prefer them to Fire Dragons which have become way too expensive to field when we need points for other answers.

I'd be more inclined to use a small squad to drop the bomb and then run behind the tank, just out of sight from the rest of the army. Then again though, if someone was to target the Hawks, they would be wasting shots vs a unit that had done it's job.

There is another reason to field a full squad though... Long Fangs and others of their ilk. Those units can really put the hurt on Eldar and if you can take out a unit of Long Fangs or Lootas, you are doing well.

I'm thinking, possibly one of unit of 10 and a small unit of Spiders to do the DS trick vs the back of Tanks. Str 7 vs Tanks and I:3 targets is too good to ignore.

Its like Hot Dogs and Buns all over again.

Swooping Hawk pack has 5 Hawks and you need 6 for the pie plate. Noooooo!

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Its like Hot Dogs and Buns all over again.

Swooping Hawk pack has 5 Hawks and you need 6 for the pie plate. Noooooo!

Nope - you get 6 in the box.

Puscifer wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Its like Hot Dogs and Buns all over again.

Swooping Hawk pack has 5 Hawks and you need 6 for the pie plate. Noooooo!

Nope - you 6 in the box.

Oh? Was it some of the older aspects that got 5 then? Cause I have 5 older Banshees and 5 older Warp Spiders. Either that or I lost one of each along the way....which is quite possible.

They all get six, except DA, Reapers and Warp Spiders.

When I got most of mine they were 2 to a blister.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

When I got most of mine they were 2 to a blister.

When I got most of my Aspect Warriors I got them directly from GW as bits. :(

Back on topic, I was wondering if anyone had given thought to a unit of 3-ish Warlocks on Jetbikes as an escort for an Autarch on a bike. I know that most people tend to think of Warlocks as only going well with a Farseer, but I'm thinking that if you set up a EJB Autarch for melee combat that he would really benefit from some of those Warlock powers (to say nothing of giving him three more S9 attacks to supplement the ubiquitous Fusion Gun as well).

I'm not convinced that it is a better choice than just putting him with some Shining Spears, but it might be worth exploring a bit. Might be a better option than just running him alone with the Mantle.

360 Points gets you:
-Autarch w/Jetbike, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun, Shard of Anaris
-4 Warlocks w/Jetbike, Singing Spear

vs.
-Autarch w/Jetbike, Banshee Mask, Fusion Gun, Shard of Anaris
-5 Shining Spears w/Exarch, Star Lance, Hit&Run and Monster Hunter
(305 pts)

Mantle just creates so many more problems for your opponent. Your opponent now has 2 units to shoot at instead of just one large deathstar. The autarch is much more survivable and will draw a lot of fire with that fusion gun, taking fire off your other jetbikes.

 Magc8Ball wrote:


Back on topic, I was wondering if anyone had given thought to a unit of 3-ish Warlocks on Jetbikes as an escort for an Autarch on a bike. I know that most people tend to think of Warlocks as only going well with a Farseer, but I'm thinking that if you set up a EJB Autarch for melee combat that he would really benefit from some of those Warlock powers (to say nothing of giving him three more S9 attacks to supplement the ubiquitous Fusion Gun as well).

Actually - yes. I've got seerer council bikes so splitting them up isn't an issue, but that little squad would "have" to be dealt with and the number of rolls (pending how many locks you take) would hopefully grant you the powers your looking for while still giving you the ability to affect reserve rolls.

I'll add this here for convenience:

Army Of Iyanden Rules:

Voice of Twilight - replaces Conceal as the Primaris
Blessing. Warp Charge 2.
Gives ALL Wraith BATTLE FOCUS AND FURIOUS CHARGE within a 12" bubble.

Warlord Traits:

1) Roll a D3 - Warlord gets this many rerolls for To Hit, To Wound, Armour Pen and Saves.
2) All friendly units FNP 6+ within 12".
3) Warlord and unit - Hatred.
4) Spirit Mark up to two enemy units per turn.
5) +1 to Deny The Witch.
6) Warlord ReRolls all failed armour saves. If he loses a wound, he loses this trait.

Gifts of Asuryan

Celestial Lance
It's a lance like the Shining Spears get with AP2 and Str 8 when shooting. Has Spirit Shatter: if you kill a Character or MC put a large blast where it died. Str is equal to the dead things toughness. AP -

Soulshrive
AP 2 Master Crafted Melee weapon with STR 3* and Spiritstealer - add one to the strength of the weapon for each unsaved wound made.

Wraithforge Stone
During the Movement Phase, nominate a single Wraithlord or Wraithknight and roll a D6. 1 or 2, nothing happens. 3+ it regains a wound suffered earlier in the battle.

Guardian Helm of Xellethon
Auto Pass Look Out Sir when in WG or WB units. WG and WB in this unit can make and accept challenges.

Spear of Teuthlas - Psyker Only.
Singing Spear, Str 9 at range. Has Rending, Armourbane and Fleshbane.

Heroes of Iyanden.
A Wraithlord or Wraithknight may be the Warlord.

Shadow Council.
5 Spiritseers for one HQ.

Yeah, the Iyandan stuff is looking pretty good. Most of those Warlord traits on a Wraithknight, could end up working out super well, and you can get more spiritseers....

I'll probably pick this up.

Good god like Wraiths weren't good enough already. I really hope they make a Harlequins supplement.

Losing conceal is kind of a bummer though. Warlocks still keep it, right?

 Crimson wrote:
Losing conceal is kind of a bummer though. Warlocks still keep it, right?

Yeah... It's Spiritseer only.

I'm kinda bummed out over the loss of Conceal too, but that new power solves the Wraiths greatest disadvantage... Speed.

The FC is icing on the cake.

So how exactly does this relates to the regular Eldar Codex? Do Iyanden armies have access to all the normal units and Remnants of Glory? With multiple FOCs do they all have to be of Iyanden, or can we mix? Or can they ally with regular Eldar?

 Crimson wrote:
So how exactly does this relates to the regular Eldar Codex? Do Iyanden armies have access to all the normal units and Remnants of Glory? With multiple FOCs do they all have to be of Iyanden, or can we mix? Or can they ally with regular Eldar?

Iyanden armies have no restricted units.

Can use Remnants, but IMO, the Iyanden ones are much better. You can't use both on the same character.

No rules or text regarding multiple foc or allying with Codex Eldar. I would have thought not though as it is still an Eldar army.

anyword on whether they have access to the special.characters? avatar? or the plords?
any FOC changes?

thanks

 zachwho wrote:
anyword on whether they have access to the special.characters? avatar? or the plords?
any FOC changes?

thanks

No unit restrictions.

Only change is that Spiritseers can be taken as five to a single hq.

So you can have Eldrad in this army?

 Crimson wrote:
So you can have Eldrad in this army?

NO UNIT RESTRICTIONS

Being able to spam spiritseers, seems quite awesome to me. Two rolls on the fantastic runes of battle chart. Just throw them in with Direavengers, or Guardians if you want.

A lot of those Warlord traits really look like it will benefit from having a Wraithknight as the Warlord. Would make it pretty tough to get slay the Warlord.

Puscifer wrote:

NO UNIT RESTRICTIONS

Yes, okay, I get it. Just seems too good to be true.

And many thanks for the info.

 Sasori wrote:
Being able to spam spiritseers, seems quite awesome to me. Two rolls on the fantastic runes of battle chart. Just throw them in with Direavengers, or Guardians if you want.

A lot of those Warlord traits really look like it will benefit from having a Wraithknight as the Warlord. Would make it pretty tough to get slay the Warlord.

Definitely.

I'm seriously considering taking Yriel in a WB squad with a Spiritseer with the Helm. Auto pass on Look Out Sir and accepting/making challenges while Yriel can beat face is brilliant. Also... If you roll the +1 save power, Yriel becomes über.