Creator Loud'n Raging 9 minutes ago

OK, as one of you has so kindly suggested, we're going to grab a bite and prepare some updates.
And maybe cool down a bit ;-)

overtyrant wrote:

With all due respect to RH, this answer is preposterous. The clear implication there is that they intended to always have $20-35,000 stretch goals to unlock individual models, an astonishingly inflated number. That is not a statement without context: thanks to innumerable other campaigns we have a very good idea how much it costs to tool molds for metal models (for a very nearly analogous campaign, one will note that Bombshell Miniatures was able to sculpt and tool each individual miniature for about $5k throughout their campaign).

To recopy my question to them in the comments;

@Loud'n Raging;
"@Don E "@Buzzsaw2 good luck getting your questions answered it seems they do a great job evading a response to "Freebies and Stretch Goals"
Did we not just answer the question about the Stretch Goals?"

With due respect, I don't believe that you did. From previous kickstarter campaigns we have a fairly good idea of how much it costs to sculpt and tool a single metal model (Bombshell Miniatures, for example, had $5k stretch goals from beginning to end). It costs approximately what they originally were listed at, $4-5k.

Now a single model costs $35,000 to be made available?

Note that this is not analogous to previous campaigns such as Reaper's Bones, where stretch goals had to become progressively farther apart because each stretch goal achieved meant another miniature was owed to the backers.

By contrast, the $35,000 stretch between Mimi the Radio ($225,000) and Ludmilla Magdanova ($260,000) simply allows a backer to add her... for $10.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

overtyrant wrote:
Must of missed that! That's quite a bad attitude to take, it could actually drive people away!

If the could drive 3 or 4 of the most vocal 'I want your to run your KS THIS way, and will say so every 2 minutes' I'd be very, very happy

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Minx wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I disagree - don't make me summon buzzsaw to do one of his awesome analysis posts of this thing!

As long as there are no kickstarter rules regarding the spacing of stretch goals even buzzsaw won't be able to predict the future. There is no necessary dependence on old data, i.e. they can choose any interval they feel like.

Spoiler:

In all seriousness, I am very interested in doing a post mortem on this campaign eventually, but as it is still in it's infancy, I'll hold of on any definitive statements.

That said, there is an important consideration that Loud'n Raging (I think I have their brickwall punk album...) needs to bare in mind: a volcanic start can be the result of any number of factors, but it is no guarantee of the continued strength of the campaign. Consider the available data in light of two relatively recent paradigms;

Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy;

Spoiler:

Through the Breach: A Malifaux Roleplaying Game

Spoiler:

Deadzone: The Sci-fi Miniatures Board Game

Spoiler:

As one can see above, an initial spike of pledges has little bearing on the shape of the remaining campaign.

Some little things that (IMO) Raging Heroes needs to be cognizant of;
-"Stealth updates"; Kickstarter has an ideal system for both keeping the pledge base aware of new developments and providing an easy illustration of campaign momentum, the update. While some people can be irritated by many update emails from KS, it also is an easy way to build interest in others.
--How many new pledges for Deadzone were garnered by a friend forwarding the announcement of that "just perfect" new stretch goal? How many people were reassured by Mantic's ability to communicate (if there is one element of Mantic that is consistently praised, it is their appearance of openness and responsiveness)?

-"Value perception"; RH has constructed this campaign in a very restrictive fashion, with the bundles offering fairly scant value thus far above simply buying things piecemeal. It is also noteworthy that gaps between stretch goals seem largely arbitrary: consider the current sequence;

Spoiler:

The initial post had stretch goals for individual figures spaced $4-5000 apart. Why does it now take $20-25-30-35,000 to tool a single new model? With campaigns such as Reaper's Bones this was easily understandable, as the higher the total number of Vampire pledges, the more figures they would be required to produce and include for no additional cost. But that is not the case here: with each unlock, figures are being tooled, but the responsibility to the backers does not increase.

That is, the moment the campaign opened a Commander pledge

This pledge received $50 worth of heroines, $90 worth of troops and $90 worth of support.

$280,000 later, that pledge is still worth exactly the same.

With that model, there seems to be no reason whatsoever for the stretch goals now to be spaced differently then they were initially.

It's also somewhat troubling that the "unlocked freebies" still remains an empty set...

But in any case, much still to see.

 -iPaint- wrote:
I'm starting to feel like Kickstarter has become this bloated, hype-driven, whiny-pledger-infested mechanism for companies to push a bunch of products in one big go, instead of traditionally releasing them as the funds are available, and I think it hurts their public image when the project grows out of proportion to what they're currently capable of handling, or what they initially set out to do in the KS. Because of these hugely successful campaigns like Reaper, Mantic, Zombicide, Sedition Wars, and Kingdom of Death, KS backers have grown accustomed to "freebies" and "add more stuff to my pledge."

I feel like I'm in the minority with this KS in that I'm just excited to see it finally get here, and if I can get my hands on some nice models at a good price, AND help RH fund future endeavors, then that's all I'm looking for. Extra stuff on top of that is icing on the cake, but I'm not expecting it, and I would dare not complain that RH is NOT giving me free stuff just 2 days into the campaign.

Too many people are complaining about one thing or another because they've chosen to pledge for X, but really they wanted X+Y and three free Z's all thrown in. The entitlement that surrounds some of these KS's is unbelievable. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but it just seems that there's more talk about the lack of stuff than talk about the actual stuff we have...

That said, I'd like to see them consider doing the troops as plastic or semi-plastic/resin kits, as the DreamForge KS kits are so well designed that I think RH could really pin down their own little corner of the market with some quality sculpts in plastic at a cost-effective price point. I am also anxious to see the bikes and mechs for all three factions. I may have to do an alternate-universe WWI styled skirmish game with these models, or some gritty post-apoc stuff.

~iPaint

edit: grammar

@Abe, @Christopher: I would further point out that my main reference (mentioned in my second post) is the Bombshell Babes project by Bombshell Miniatures. I bring this up because the argument "they are making a new line" seems somehow inadequate when the Bombshell campaign facilitated not just sculpting, tooling, casting and distribution, but the very launch of the company!

It's also worth pointing out that there are are 40 or so shadowed outlines on the front page. If they were to be stretch goal'd at the $20,000 that appears to be the new minimum, to just unlock those (not counting any freebies) would require an additional... $800,000(!).

Mind you, that is simply to make available everything that they originally planned (which seems... odd).

For those interested in more in-depth thoughts on the matter, I would point you to http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/530736.page#5702964 (it has pretty graphs!).

And finally, for those inclined to think this pointless criticism, I do really want this project to succeed. Why I am stating my opinion is quite simple: constructive criticism being taken can make tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference in a KS campaign. I have seen this firsthand.

 cincydooley wrote:
There's ridiculous overentitlement in every KS. It's the nature of the beast and a microcosm of the United States as a whole at this point.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
I present then for evaluation, my latest comment;

@Abe, @Christopher: I would further point out that my main reference (mentioned in my second post) is the Bombshell Babes project by Bombshell Miniatures. I bring this up because the argument "they are making a new line" seems somehow inadequate when the Bombshell campaign facilitated not just sculpting, tooling, casting and distribution, but the very launch of the company!

It's also worth pointing out that there are are 40 or so shadowed outlines on the front page. If they were to be stretch goal'd at the $20,000 that appears to be the new minimum, to just unlock those (not counting any freebies) would require an additional... $800,000(!).

Mind you, that is simply to make available everything that they originally planned (which seems... odd).

For those interested in more in-depth thoughts on the matter, I would point you to http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/530736.page#5702964 (it has pretty graphs!).

And finally, for those inclined to think this pointless criticism, I do really want this project to succeed. Why I am stating my opinion is quite simple: constructive criticism being taken can make tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference in a KS campaign. I have seen this firsthand.

The notion that the best way to deal with criticism is to drive out the maker seems... odd.

In all seriousness, as I point out, just using the new minimum numbers for stretch goals ($20k), this project needs to go north of $1 million just to open all the known items! That doesn't include any freebies, add-ons or other miscellany.

I am, hard as it may be to believe, actually very interested in this project. That's why I want it to be as well run, and as good a value, as it possibly can be.

overtyrant wrote:
...

I am actually very interested in how they handle the KS over the next 30 days and find it quite entertaining that most of us on here can have very different ideas on how one should be run. It can become heated at times (I find this highly amusing) and I could come across as annoying to one person but insightful to another (and vice versa). I think the next 30 days may prove quite entertaining for me!

 Alpharius wrote:

Creator Loud'n Raging 10 minutes ago

@Abe Lincoln with a ShotgunAxe
I'm assuming you are referring to the Stretch Goal Intervals?
We started with a low funding point because we know that when a Kickstarter is funded quickly, it really helps to give the project more visibility. That's the reason why we had planned we had planned several small stretch goal right after that, so that you guys would be able to rapidly see new unlocked minis to get a better feel of how, each army would look and how you would spend your pledge.
At this point in time, we've come back to more normal stretch goal intervals. the only thing that took us by surprise was that we did not think you would unlock those small stretch goals so quickly.
Does that answer your question?

I suppose it does.

silent25 wrote:
Bolded the part above that is really raising a red flag with me. Am I the only one who would read this as meaning the initial funding level had no relevance to actual project cost? Are people throwing money at a deliberately underfunded project because RH wanted to have a KS label with 6000% funded, but doesn't reflect the real cost?

Vhalan wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
There's ridiculous overentitlement in every KS. It's the nature of the beast and a microcosm of the United States as a whole at this point.

KS contains risk. As a backer, I provide money now for product 'in the future' with no recourse to recover my money should the company close down and go away (or go to a casino and put it all on black). If the pitch is: cash now to pay near retail pricing later then what is the value?

KS is a means to entice money to make projects a reality. That enticement comes in the form of free things and things that wont be availible to people who wait for retail.

decker_cky wrote:

silent25 wrote:
Bolded the part above that is really raising a red flag with me. Am I the only one who would read this as meaning the initial funding level had no relevance to actual project cost? Are people throwing money at a deliberately underfunded project because RH wanted to have a KS label with 6000% funded, but doesn't reflect the real cost?

That's pretty normal, and shouldn't be a concern. All it means is that if this only got a low funding level, RH was willing to foot the rest of the bill. And it makes sense for them to recoup that amount over the length of the Kickstarter. For what's open now though, there's no chance it's underfunded anymore, so that excuse doesn't really fly anymore.

 Grot 6 wrote:
People need to know walking in that we are banking on a real life project in production and design, not on free, free, free, the greedy gits.

 Breotan wrote:
The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?"