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She looks more like a pilot than a baby bjorn. She's not external to the machine.

This looks like a must get.

 Breotan wrote:

With all due respect, right actor, wrong fantasy setting for meme content :p

Regarding plastics, we are just conditioned to associate plastic with better faster cheaper. I'll admit hearing plastics immediately piques my interest, but is it right for this project? Idk. I don't think it would affect our price point, and I think I'd rather put the campaign funds into more upgrades and freebies.

As far as the mecha, I like it. Skittish at the immediate comparison with the infamous GK baby carrier, but as an homage to Aliens, I think it portrays that vision very well in the concept. Hopefully they pull their magic with the sculpt.

Probably worth noting that this new stretch goal has been dropped to $10k, rather than 20 or 30k. And for the large mech, too. It really shows how cynically the existing ones have been gamed after the big splash. - $20k each for 2 infantry models, followed by $10k for a mech. These aren't Reaper or even CMON style freebies for everyone at $100+ either. It's also not at all like Tre's campaign for example, where the stretch goals actually make enough money to cast and produce the next thing.

It's probably too early to speculate in any depth, but it feels like it might be a struggle to open up all of the existing goals. I say this because of what's been observed many times before by several people, including myself - a ton of money in front-loaded pledges where people are still waiting to choose their models from stuff that's not yet unlocked.

Hulksmash also brought up a good point, that I share. $35->30 isn't going to make me pledge additional funds. With the madcap race to grab an early bird, I already went in for the maximum I might be able to afford. There's not really space or enough incentive for me to go higher. I imagine that I'm not alone when I look at how many backers are tied up in the much higher levels.

Admittedly, the unarmored pilot for the Jailbird mech is in keeping with the Jailbirds aesthetic we've seen so far (no/light armor)

As for the sculpts vs concept art, I'm sure they said before the campaign that they had almost all of the models 3-D sculpted/rendered already, and planned to have the last ones finished before the end of the campaign?

Does that sound familiar to anyone else? It makes me wonder why we're only seeing concept art and not dual-action, as with the Nurse?

 Azazelx wrote:
Probably worth noting that this new stretch goal has been dropped to $10k, rather than 20 or 30k. And for the large mech, too. It really shows how cynically the existing ones have been gamed after the big splash. - $20k each for 2 infantry models, followed by $10k for a mech. These aren't Reaper or even CMON style freebies for everyone at $100+ either. It's also not at all like Tre's campaign for example, where the stretch goals actually make enough money to cast and produce the next thing.

It's probably too early to speculate in any depth, but it feels like it might be a struggle to open up all of the existing goals. I say this because of what's been observed many times before by several people, including myself - a ton of money in front-loaded pledges where people are still waiting to choose their models from stuff that's not yet unlocked.

Hulksmash also brought up a good point, that I share. $35->30 isn't going to make me pledge additional funds. With the madcap race to grab an early bird, I already went in for the maximum I might be able to afford. There's not really space or enough incentive for me to go higher. I imagine that I'm not alone when I look at how many backers are tied up in the much higher levels.

First, you expressed ire at the gap between stretch goals, and now that they've gone and reduced the gap, and added something everyone wanted, you're still not pleased? I'm confused.

 Azazelx wrote:
As for the sculpts vs concept art, I'm sure they said before the campaign that they had almost all of the models 3-D sculpted/rendered already, and planned to have the last ones finished before the end of the campaign?

Does that sound familiar to anyone else? It makes me wonder why we're only seeing concept art and not dual-action, as with the Nurse?

From the Risks and Challenges section:

We made sure that our sculpting planning was realistic. This means that you'll be able to have access to a first wave of production as early as September. And we have set up and used for the past several months a sculpting workflow that allows us to create many miniatures quickly without compromising their quality. This means that 80% of the sculpting process will be done by the end of the Kickstarter.

So, we should see more sculpts as the days go by.

 Alpharius wrote:
It is nice, and I think the 'design' fits the background - I'm just not sure that the pilot would survive long in a firefight.

Maybe there's some sort of force field device built in too?

It makes sense to me if I assume it was salvaged / jury-rigged from a "proper" mech. The pedals are a nice touch, so it doesn't look like she's just dangling there.

 Valhallan42nd wrote:

First, you expressed ire at the gap between stretch goals, and now that they've gone and reduced the gap, and added something everyone wanted, you're still not pleased? I'm confused.

No, not unhappy. I'm pointing out how transparent their gaming/manipulation of the stretch goals has been, and also expressing a concern that since the campaign seems to be massively front-loaded, their manipulation of them based on day 1 might end up with not everything being unlocked by the end. (Since we're not pledging for a game at $x plus a la carte extras, but y number of figures chosen from whatever is unlocked.)

Hmmmm. Can't say I like the mech. I'm hoping for a bike in the future!

Do you guys think it's more worth it to get one
First Class Box ($40)
- $40 worth of heroines
- TGG Digital Artbook
and add more miniatures of my choice on top of that

or to get

Painter Box ($95)
- $80 worth of heroines
- $15 Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature
- TGG Digital Artbook
and add a ltitle bit more for things that I may want in the end

I ask 'cuz it seems like the Painter box is essentially two First Class Boxes, but with one definite Skycaptain and it seems like the pledge is essentially forcing the Skycaptain onto the pledger.

Was really excited for the mechs but then they showed this Nice figure and all that but at least the GW baby carrier has an armoured pilot! Iron Empire is my faction of choice so we will see what they came up with!

The mech is sort of growing on me. I mean, I don't like the exposed pilot any better, but there is sort of a difference between the Dreadknight - a unit purpose-made and designed from step 1 for extreme close combat that bizarrely has an exposed pilot - and something like this that was expressly not, and just jury-rigged. I think if you paint the damn thing yellow and just go with the full homage it will work pretty well.

On the other hand, if you're gonna add on a rocket launcher and some guns, maybe a few armor plates to protect you from even a thrown rock seems not unreasonable either. I'm conflicted.

Also, I have to say - to go back to something that was said earlier in this thread, some of the complaints do seem a little irrational. Not happy when the stretch goals are far apart, then complaining they're gaming you when they bring them closer together? And what does "gaming" even mean in this context? Trying to make as much money as possible? How is that, like, wrong?

If you're arguing they're not giving sufficient added value for the pledges levels, sure, I could see that and maybe agree with it (though it's still a little early). And, if the complaint is that some stuff might never get unlocked; that's both a totally valid complaint.... but also, like, how every other kickstarter works, right? I mean, Secret Weapon had plenty of tile sets that never got unlocked. Although in that case - you know, as I type this I guess I see what you mean, in that with Secret Weapon there was a clear and unambiguous explanation why they were set as so. Still, I'm not really offended by profit-taking when there are profits to be had.

Holy smokes what happened. I look away and nothing was going on and now they have 300K+ pledged and still a month to go.

And even crazier, I actually really want some of these figures.

If they can deliver good quality sculpts, I might just eat my words and end up ordering a squad or two.

$8,453

That's how much money they have to add today to equal half of yesterday.

As I write this, they may have just made it. To Half.

After much thought and inspection of what would appear to be relevant data, one particular unpleasant conclusion seems difficult to avoid: this campaign is in dire need of more value added materials. "Freebies", to use their term.

This is not a plaintive cry for more swag, or a threat to pull a pledge: it is recognition that this campaign is diverging from the established pattern of the very successful campaigns. Now, one is free to say that at $300k+ it is already "very successful", however, as we have been given the road map of how many things remain to be unlocked, it is clear that this campaign requires mega levels of funding (at the current rate, at least $1 million) to unlock everything that they have already planned.

Much has been made of the impressive initial few days: how similar it is to other monster campaigns, how much demand obviously existed, how overwhelming it must have been. All completely true, but what has gone mostly unsaid has been how similar the feeling of being overwhelmed was to other project creators, but how different their response was to the onslaught of cash.

In a previous post I pointed out that when faced with overwhelming demand, Kingdom Death: Monster plowed the money back into the campaign. In fact, if we value them by even just the campaign price, the stretch goals before $300k increased the value of the Survivor level pledge by $131+ (4 sets of Armors at $24 each, plastic Watcher $15, 5 Kings Men $20, and a plastic Phoenix which is not otherwise available to add, thus unpriced). If we assign a reasonable value of $20 to the plastic Phoenix, then the $155 Survivor pledge had had $151 in value added to it by the $300k mark. At $300k, it is to be noted, KD:M added the first paid add-on.

Now, while KD is similar in many respects to Raging Heroes (a microscale company with a reputation for quality and a very limited distribution network), the content of their campaigns are quite different (a board game as opposed to a freestanding miniature range, a single unified project as opposed to several lines in parallel). Is there a better, more similar model for this type of campaign? Indeed there is: Deadzone: The Sci-fi Miniatures Board Game. Despite the name Deadzone is in virtually every respect a skirmish level table top game (also not played on a board...), with multiple factions being developed in parallel, the promise of larger scale miniatures (beyond infantry size, that is) and the distant whispers of hard plastic tooling. It is, in fact, remarkably similar. So what questions can we potentially answer by looking at Deadzone?



First, draw your attention to a rather interesting fact: Deadzone actually had more backers opening day then TGG. The lower opening number reflects a well defined pledge level that people gravitated towards (~$136 average that day). Now, notice that by the end of the campaign, the average pledge for a backer of Deadzone was not $136, but $283 (more then double!). Contrast that to TGG, which already has an average backer pledge of $230.

While it is tempting to view that high backer pledge level as a positive for TGG, it may very well be a reflect a dangerous flaw in the structure of the pledge levels. That is, it may very well be an indication that, in general, the backers of TGG have already pledged close to the maximum they will pledge. Further, because TGG structured their pledge levels as dollar values which you then pick miniatures from a pool, it means that as stretch goals unlock, the general backer is unlikely to need to change their pledge level to accommodate new items.

To give an example: at $360k the Jailbird Mecha is available as a support choice. How much must I add to my Commander Box for this item? Nothing. Because the pledge level requires me to take 6 $15 support choices or $90 of support, I can use the money already pledged to pay for it. It's competition thus far are a number of rather corner case field artillery pieces, so until more then 3 $30 support items catch my fancy, my pledge for such things remains as it is.

Another factor that becomes clear when you compare TGG to Deadzone is the degree to which Deadzone funneled the initial cash into making the basic pledge levels better. Through the $300k stretch goals, all goals achieved either added directly to faction starters or to the Strike Team ($150) pledge level. Note that they had these goals do double duty: when the tooling was paid for with a stretch, not only did they add miniatures for free, but they allowed them to be bought in addition (more snipers, for example, beyond what they added to the box).

Let us be clear, the point being made is not how awesome Mantic is and why can't RH throw more stuff at us: it is that Mantic has learned from previous campaigns and, more importantly, learned the psychology of selling, for the betterment of their campaign. To that end, note that it would not be until day ten that Deadzone dropped below $10k pledges/day, while TGG has passed that particular milestone on day four.

Years ago I had the misfortune of being involved in making a training film for a company that sold kitchen refacing. About the products I remember little, what I do remember very clearly is the psychology of getting people to yes.

Deadzone was a fantastic expression of this: their freebie stretch goals meant that the pledge level of Strike Team constantly became a better and better deal, attracting more and more interest from fence sitters and for upgraders. Realize, an enormous number of people have already looked at a campaign before pledging: the person that looked at the Strike Team pledge at launch and found the value lacking could check back, and with each stretch goal achieved see 4 miniatures added, or a KS exclusive miniature or Mercenary figure, until eventually the pledge becomes too good to pass up.

For a great visual representation of this phenomenon, consider this image of the various pledge levels from the recent MYTH campaign (the original boxed game is the grey box in the far top of the image) (Warning, huge image!);


Take a look at that image and count the value increases, one after another after another (FYI, MYTH final pledge total: $926k). In contrast, having achieved $300k worth of stretch goals, how much value has been added to a Commander pledge? Ash the Tank Gunner, an incomplete miniature designed to be used in an armored tank port... in a campaign that does not include tanks of any sort. Those inclined to point to that "Free Upgrades" at $180k need recall that those upgrades are not direct to the pledges, but to specific miniatures. If those miniatures are not what you intended to pick, the "free upgrades" do nothing for you.

MYTH, Mantic and C'MoN's campaigns and KD:M were, in addition to their ordinary virtues, masterpieces of understanding how to sell. How to grab the potential backer with an initial deal that they looked at and said "whoa, I can't pass that up!", and then reeled them in to eventually build on that pledge (KD:M's eventual average pledge? About $380.).

 Jimsolo wrote:
Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?

Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?

Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.

Not sure I'd put much into plastics with Raging Heroes tbh. Has there been any company with really good results from their first plastic kits? Wyrd is probably close, but there were some definite misses in that initial range too. I think I'm more likely to put $150 into a material I've seen the company work with than $100 in a material they have no experience with if I'm buying models unseen.

decker_cky wrote:
I think I'm more likely to put $150 into a material I've seen the company work with...

They haven't worked with it before - they're using spincast plastic ("restic"), not resin.

One complication to adding freebies is that they didn't include postage at any level. For a lot of these projects, postage is one of the big costs. Once you're actually sending someone a box anyway, though - adding another free figure or whatever doesn't significantly increase your costs (presuming a tiny bit of resin in a mold you were making anyway) but it can increase profits by pushing people to a higher pledge level so they can get said freebie.

Hypothetical example. Sending a box to Australia will cost $9.45 for a single mini. If the mini is selling for $20, and it costs you $2 per mini to make, then your profit is $8.55 (43%).

If you decide everyone who goes to the $30 level gets an extra free mini, then the order is $30. Your postage isn't changing, your costs are $4, and the weight doesn't change significantly - your profit on that order is $16.55 (55%).

By making people pay shipping separately, they complete remove one of the ways they can get people to move to higher pledge tiers without significantly increasing costs to themselves.

I think we're going to find - putting aside all the other things - the post-kickstarter accounting is going to be a huge headache since I strongly suspect a non-trivial percentage of people who have pledged, pledged at the reward level they want... without including shipping. Chasing them after, adding it post-kickstarter via Paypal, people whose pledge cleared on Amazon but Paypal failed, the paypal fees that will get eaten for added shipping, adding on non-kickstarter addons at the same time - this is going to be pretty tough to organize without dedicated and integrated software.

Buzzsaw' I hope someone at RH reads your post.

Clarification on casting material terms;

Restic: fuzzy term usually refers to the Mantic, PP, and upcoming Kingdom Death method. This is injection molded resin. Its done in metal moulds and therefore suffers the same detail loss/ undercut issues that injection styrene (hard plastic) kits have.

Sometimes restic is used to describe the offering developed by Torllforged also used by Defiance Games and Impact. This is spin cast resin in rubber moulds. If done right, good detail is possible. If done wrong -disaster.

Resin; yet to see a very good spincast version. Resin usually means painstaking hand casting with vacuum or pressure chamber in rubber moulds. If done well results are very good, many 'boutique' companies use this, eg. pre KS Kingdom Death, McVeys, Vic Minis Penal Squad, Forgeworld.

Plastic: injection moulded styrene done in metal moulds, eg: GW, Dreamforge, new Wyrd.

Hope that helps. Feel free to correct me.
Cheers,
V

 AlexHolker wrote:

decker_cky wrote:
I think I'm more likely to put $150 into a material I've seen the company work with...

They haven't worked with it before - they're using spincast plastic ("restic"), not resin.

I thought they had used it for at least one of their recent troop releases?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vic wrote:
Restic: fuzzy term usually refers to the Mantic, PP, and upcoming Kingdom Death method. This is injection molded resin. Its done in metal moulds and therefore suffers the same detail loss/ undercut issues that injection styrene (hard plastic) kits have.

Wrong. It uses rubber molds and therefore can have undercuts exactly like metal models.

 Ouze wrote:
The mech is sort of growing on me. I mean, I don't like the exposed pilot any better, but there is sort of a difference between the Dreadknight - a unit purpose-made and designed from step 1 for extreme close combat that bizarrely has an exposed pilot - and something like this that was expressly not, and just jury-rigged. I think if you paint the damn thing yellow and just go with the full homage it will work pretty well.

On the other hand, if you're gonna add on a rocket launcher and some guns, maybe a few armor plates to protect you from even a thrown rock seems not unreasonable either. I'm conflicted.

At first I had the same reaction, it left a bad taste in my mouth to see the pilot so exposed - essentially crucified for enemy fire - but it's also grown on me. It helps imagining it more as a fast moving exoskeleton than a clunkier battlemech. Just picture that thing zipping around the battlefield twirling around like some rampant berzerker.

I think they less than subtly hinted at the walker being Aliens inspired more than once.

They out right said it in the update. Looking forward to seeing the Kruganova walker now.

Whilst I appreciate the ideas behind the mecha I'm not overly thrilled by it personally. The pilot is overly exposed to my mind, even if it is looted/scavenged industrial equipment that's been upgraded at least some pilot protection could have been added at the same time as the weaponry. Especially as the weapons look to have been added rather skilfully, rather than just strapped/bolted/welded to the actual arms of the machine.

Guess we'll wait and see what the other two factions have to offer in this slot. But right now, can't see myself picking any of this one up.

Current funds: $314,846

decker_cky wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

decker_cky wrote:
I think I'm more likely to put $150 into a material I've seen the company work with...

They haven't worked with it before - they're using spincast plastic ("restic"), not resin.

I thought they had used it for at least one of their recent troop releases?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

vic wrote:
Restic: fuzzy term usually refers to the Mantic, PP, and upcoming Kingdom Death method. This is injection molded resin. Its done in metal moulds and therefore suffers the same detail loss/ undercut issues that injection styrene (hard plastic) kits have.

Wrong. It uses rubber molds and therefore can have undercuts exactly like metal models.

Can you provide any reference for this statement? As I have had direct communication with at least one of these manufacturers regarding casting my own products, and the quotes involved tooling for metal moulds. I'd be very interested to hear more.
Cheers,
V

I'm more excited to see Nurse Bernadette than I am for the mech, if I'm honest. I'm not a huge mecha fan to begin with, and like many other people, I don't dig on exposed pilots. That being said, it's really pretty, and looks a million times better than the Dreadknight. At least the 'jerry-rigged' excuse provides a tiny bit of plausibility to the exposed pilot. I probably will not get one, but still.

Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?

Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.

I don't know what Goldsword is. I gather your meaning through context, however, and I'm sorry you feel that way. While plastic does give the advantages you describe, it does NOT convey the level of detail that makes Raging Heroes miniatures superior display pieces. I don't think I would be interested in purchasing any plastic miniatures from them. I certainly understand where you're coming from, though. I wouldn't want to field a fully IG army with nothing but RH troops. I'm going to use them for unique or 'showpiece' units, so I can see how I would be willing to spend more money for better looking minis.

I hope you find some plastic minis that fit your economic needs! All the best.

decker_cky wrote:
Not sure I'd put much into plastics with Raging Heroes tbh. Has there been any company with really good results from their first plastic kits?

Dreamforge. Check the decent res sprue pics here. Also from 3d sculpts, not physical. Came out really good. Can't find good shots of the accessory sprues, they have helmetless heads that look really good.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?

Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.

Plastics would be a serious reason to drop mine, they do not fit the project, the scope or the aesthetics.

Plastics is not a panacea and they have a long way to properly complement organic form, if they ever will.