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Yeah... I would not have a problem if they created NEW/ADDITIONAL troops made out of plastic.. but please do not try to force these lovely artworks into plastic models... I just don't think it will work.

 Jimsolo wrote:

Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?

It seems to vary, often at random. You'll also notice a lot of the negative comments are coming from the same handful of people, and restate the same handful of points over and over again, never missing a chance to remind everyone how this latest development proves their pet theory about the nature of Kickstarter / RH's perceived arrogance / whatever right. Again, not that they're not entitled to be negative, but after a certain point, I do wonder why anyone wouldn't just simply abandon a KS they find so unsatisfactory, and move onto something they like more. Opinions have been expressed unambiguously, anyone you feel needs to be "warned" has been, your work here has been done.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I don't know what Goldsword is.

Empire Greatswords, the kit that paved the way for the 25-pounds-for-10 price band.

I certainly understand where you're coming from, though. I wouldn't want to field a fully IG army with nothing but RH troops. I'm going to use them for unique or 'showpiece' units, so I can see how I would be willing to spend more money for better looking minis.

I hope you find some plastic minis that fit your economic needs! All the best.

Thank you.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Plastics would be a serious reason to drop mine, they do not fit the project, the scope or the aesthetics.

I'm not suggesting that they should all be plastic. Even one sprue per faction would provide the option for bulk at an affordable price for the likes of the Imperial Guard, where you don't want to pay $3 after discounts for a 5 point model.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
Plastics would be a serious reason to drop mine, they do not fit the project, the scope or the aesthetics.

Plastics is not a panacea and they have a long way to properly complement organic form, if they ever will.

What exactly do you mean by that last line? Like, you don't think humans can be properly cast in plastics?

Cause I think Gee-dubs has done OK with this, generally.


But perhaps I misunderstand you.

If Raging Heroes did a weapons sprue of those pistols on the Iron Empire heroines I would be all over that.

Might put in a small pledge here to add some variety to my Inquisitorial henchmen, really liking the Kurganova and Iron Empire factions for that.

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Buzzsaw' I hope someone at RH reads your post.

Indeed!

Thank you Buzzsaw for taking the time to lay out such a nice, logical, rational, calm and well thought out post.

The very definition of constructive criticism - and much appreciated!

Azazelx wrote:Probably worth noting that this new stretch goal has been dropped to $10k, rather than 20 or 30k. And for the large mech, too. It really shows how cynically the existing ones have been gamed after the big splash.

The first 12,000 unlocked about 46 miniatures. So according to your logic, it would be cynical, not to unlock another 46 models per 12,000$ as this must surely be the exact price for designing, sculpting and producing 46 models?
Actually, producing the about 150 intended models has a huge cost (and risk) that is spread a bit arbitrarily among all the stretch goals, so the unlock levels are more marketing of the complete project than actual production cost of an individual model.

Buzzsaw wrote:This is not a plaintive cry for more swag, or a threat to pull a pledge: it is recognition that this campaign is diverging from the established pattern of the very successful campaigns. Now, one is free to say that at $300k+ it is already "very successful", however, as we have been given the road map of how many things remain to be unlocked, it is clear that this campaign requires mega levels of funding (at the current rate, at least $1 million) to unlock everything that they have already planned

So, to be fair, can you post the freebies of all successful projects on day three of the campaign, so that we can actually see, where this one diverges from that pattern? Please only consider those projects that have more than 50 individual sculpts at day three.

More info!

Ian Stewart about 11 hours ago

That mech is awesome sauce!! How pose-able will it be? (Because I'm going to have to get multiples.)

Creator Loud'n Raging about 11 hours ago

@Ian Stewart: quite pose-able, and we've also planned options for other pilot heads in upcoming 'free upgrade' stretch goals

PsychoticStorm about 11 hours ago

@ Loud'n Raging

Will there be corresponding master arms and or legs to fit the slave arms and legs alternative posing?

Creator Loud'n Raging about 11 hours ago

@PsychoticStorm: Unfortunately not, it would mean too many variants and options.

EDIT, was changed overnight, understand now

 Alpharius wrote:

 HisDivineShadow wrote:
Buzzsaw' I hope someone at RH reads your post.

Indeed!

Thank you Buzzsaw for taking the time to lay out such a nice, logical, rational, calm and well thought out post.

The very definition of constructive criticism - and much appreciated!

Yep, was the first place I read the post this morning, only just getting back round to Dakka now before heading out for the evening again RH does indeed get a lot of feedback posted to them through various methods (including a good old cut and paste) so be assured, your feedback is looked at

I'm kinda a fan of the whole salvaged and modified equipment style for the Jailbirds, however the whole babycarrier from GW really has me unable to warm to the model yet. Pity as I have a feeling I'll be headed straight for Blondie and the Mad Nurse as heroine choices myself and was thinking of just getting the whole lot as them if I go up from painter funds allowing.

Here is an example of the "five mini box", which is the sample principle behind the KS troop units.

http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2012/10/amazing-miniatures-from-raging-heroes.html

This is how they will get the 5 unique poses per box, and the weapon options. All of the options I needed for my wyches were there, which was helpful. Some of the extra weapons went to converting other figures as well. I don't know what the formulation is, but I never have to wash the resin parts. In fact, you can even paint right onto them without primer!

Since I just spent hours yesterday washing, scraping and priming a ton of FW parts, it was a stark reminder of how much of my life gets wasted cleaning resin

The metal figure you see in the picture is this one:
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/05/skaryaa-blood-mistress-from-raging.html

Other white metal figures, such as the single piece pose!
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/06/vestal-in-pale-flesh.html

And a pretty intricate metal kit that was very easy to assemble:
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/06/brunhilde-for-gold.html

One fault I find with Buzzsaw's analysis, however, is the projects he chose to compare this to: Myth and Deadzone. As I stated in an earlier post, this project is more in line with Dreamforge Games, Bombshell Babes, and Damsels of Darkmyre. With Myth and Deadzone you pledged for a prepackaged deal (as well as being a complete game) that was unchanging, but then options and additions were added to it. That is not what Raging Heroes is doing here, though. They, like Dreamforge, BB, and DoD, are offering up a large selection of miniatures (and not a complete game) that you essentially mix and match to fulfill your pledge level (which was noted in Buzzsaw's analysis and my earlier post as a major reason why stretch goals aren't increasing funding because those unlocked models can simply be chosen as part of the existing pledge). I feel a better analysis would be comparing this project to those other three I named.

I think his point Tannhauser is not the game format, but the KS format.

I love RH. But there is little incentive to add to your pledge. Very little added value for pushing higher and higher.

Dead zone for example I find a great example. The fact that it was an entire game is irrelevant. It was a great deal. And got better and better. To the point that I almost pledged just because the value you got per amount pledged was almost too good to not get, despite having little interest in most minis and the game.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:This is not a plaintive cry for more swag, or a threat to pull a pledge: it is recognition that this campaign is diverging from the established pattern of the very successful campaigns. Now, one is free to say that at $300k+ it is already "very successful", however, as we have been given the road map of how many things remain to be unlocked, it is clear that this campaign requires mega levels of funding (at the current rate, at least $1 million) to unlock everything that they have already planned

So, to be fair, can you post the freebies of all successful projects on day three of the campaign, so that we can actually see, where this one diverges from that pattern? Please only consider those projects that have more than 50 individual sculpts at day three.

This is an excellent point. Not the one Kroot is proposing, that's insipid, but the talismanic repetition of "X number of sculpts at launch!", as if that virtue is an unalloyed good. It seems very possible that the attempt to launch 3 lines all at once, rather then enhancing the campaign, has been profoundly detrimental.

Put simply, while some game launches like Relic Knights or Deadzone presented multiple different lines of asymmetrically balanced armies, TGG is essentially, well, the same army presented in 3 different aesthetic flavors.

Let us be candid and acknowledge that most people buying these miniatures are not buying them with an eye towards using them for use in the as-yet-unseen rules system RH is developing. Rather, they are being bought for use in other game systems, weather it be Warzone or Warhammer 40k or Deadzone or whatever.

If you are, as I am, interested in mixing Iron Empire units with DFG Eisenkern, well, you don't have a great deal of use for the Jailbird sculpts.

If you want to add some females to your Catachan guards, you're probably very interested in the Jailbirds but not all that interested in IE or Kurgs.

So on and so forth.

No doubt there are some backers that are interested in all three flavors of heavy infantry, or all three versions of the same sniper team.

But the biggest problem is that having a lot of options to choose from doesn't actually increase the value of the pledge. More flexible, to be sure, but if you look at the projects that hit the mega funding levels, how flexible were they?

EDIT: I forgot to add something here: because there are 3 lines that are being looked at as collections of individual sculpts, it dramatically increases the stretch goal interval for people interested primarily in a single faction.

For example: say you are all about the Iron Empire. The last stretch goal that pertained to you was $310k Major Madsen. There is nothing directed to you again until... after the $360k Jailbird mech at the earliest. So $50k+!

You will note that in Deadzone, when one faction got a specialist unit, they all got one, with the exception of the very late in the game uniques.

 Elemental wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?

It seems to vary, often at random. You'll also notice a lot of the negative comments are coming from the same handful of people, and restate the same handful of points over and over again, never missing a chance to remind everyone how this latest development proves their pet theory about the nature of Kickstarter / RH's perceived arrogance / whatever right. Again, not that they're not entitled to be negative, but after a certain point, I do wonder why anyone wouldn't just simply abandon a KS they find so unsatisfactory, and move onto something they like more. Opinions have been expressed unambiguously, anyone you feel needs to be "warned" has been, your work here has been done.

Man goes to his doctor, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking." Man says he's fine, he just started and he feels great, he's not going to stop.

A year later the man comes in with a cough, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking", notes the cough, raises an eyebrow and points to the pack of Marlboro's. Man says that it's just a coincidence and the doctor is just a killjoy.

A few years after that the man comes in complaining of pain when he pees. The doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking", offers him a trial sample of smoking cessation gum and information to local. Man says that the doc is being ridiculous, it's his bladder not his lungs. The doctor explains the studies that show correlation, the man responds with correlation is not causation.

Another few years passes, man comes in, his cough has passed, but now he's consistently short of breath. Doctor says "you have got to quite smoking", and tries to educate the man about electronic cigarettes, other nicotine replacements and the studies that show correlation. The man says the doctor has been on his case for so long and is so negative that he's becoming a bore. The doctor smiles and says he's happy to be a bore and hopes to be a bore for many, many more years to come. And by the way quit smoking.

The doctor goes to the local hospital for M&M and sees the man. As the medical examiner shows slides of the tumors that riddle the man's body the doctor reflects on their relationship.

A different man goes to the doctor, and the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking"...

Why does the doctor keep telling people to quit smoking? Because sometimes they listen!

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
One fault I find with Buzzsaw's analysis, however, is the projects he chose to compare this to: Myth and Deadzone. As I stated in an earlier post, this project is more in line with Dreamforge Games, Bombshell Babes, and Damsels of Darkmyre. With Myth and Deadzone you pledged for a prepackaged deal (as well as being a complete game) that was unchanging, but then options and additions were added to it. That is not what Raging Heroes is doing here, though. They, like Dreamforge, BB, and DoD, are offering up a large selection of miniatures (and not a complete game) that you essentially mix and match to fulfill your pledge level (which was noted in Buzzsaw's analysis and my earlier post as a major reason why stretch goals aren't increasing funding because those unlocked models can simply be chosen as part of the existing pledge). I feel a better analysis would be comparing this project to those other three I named.

That is an excellent point, one which I have discussed at some length in private. I did not bring it up in the above analysis because, simply put, while their pledge modality is far closer, their ultimate funding levels were far below what TGG requires. I compared to mega funding projects and used the term mega literally: TGG needs about a million (mega) dollars to actually get everything on the table.

In that context it is worth pointing out that even the best of the projects you mention is DFG, which topped out at ~$206k.

In all honesty, it seems very likely that mode of pledge packaging may be actually incompatible with building a psychologically irresistible pledge package. TGG needs KD:M, C'MoN or Myth numbers, not Bombshell Babes numbers.

RoninXiC wrote:
Yeah... I would not have a problem if they created NEW/ADDITIONAL troops made out of plastic.. but please do not try to force these lovely artworks into plastic models... I just don't think it will work.

I'm not sure that anyone has actually suggested they release current models as plastics. We just want "plastics", as in "some models cast in plastic". Original sculpts or tweaks of existing sculpts released alongside their resin progenitors would be fantastic. No one wants to replace Bernadette entirely with plastic. A new, purpose-sculpted plastic model, however, would open many wallets right up.

I, personally, find plastic much, much more enjoyable to work with than resin or metal, and am sick to death of cleaning restic at this point. In fact, I haven't seen a restic release yet that hasn't had worse results from warping, flash and poorly-placed mold lines than a plastic release. At this point, I think restic would ruin RH's "masterpiece" cheesecake worse than any Wyrd-style plastics.

It would be nice to see some money from this placed into developing plastics for rank and file for later kickstarters like the dark elves or sisters of battle esque troops.

That mech is the first model to tempt me although hell if I know what I'd use it for.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

RoninXiC wrote:
Yeah... I would not have a problem if they created NEW/ADDITIONAL troops made out of plastic.. but please do not try to force these lovely artworks into plastic models... I just don't think it will work.

I'm not sure that anyone has actually suggested they release current models as plastics. We just want "plastics", as in "some models cast in plastic". Original sculpts or tweaks of existing sculpts released alongside their resin progenitors would be fantastic. No one wants to replace Bernadette entirely with plastic. A new, purpose-sculpted plastic model, however, would open many wallets right up.

I, personally, find plastic much, much more enjoyable to work with than resin or metal, and am sick to death of cleaning restic at this point. In fact, I haven't seen a restic release yet that hasn't had worse results from warping, flash and poorly-placed mold lines than a plastic release. At this point, I think restic would ruin RH's "masterpiece" cheesecake worse than any Wyrd-style plastics.

Now this I could get behind. I think the problem is that some people actually were expecting the existing models to be done in plastic, Bob. Like you, I don't think that would work. But I would be all about some cheaper, slightly less detailed horde troopers done in a cheaper medium.

 pretre wrote:
That mech is the first model to tempt me although hell if I know what I'd use it for.

If large enough, it could make for an interesting Sentinel or Dreadknight stand-in.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
But the biggest problem is that having a lot of options to choose from doesn't actually increase the value of the pledge. More flexible, to be sure, but if you look at the projects that hit the mega funding levels, how flexible were they?
...
TGG needs about a million (mega) dollars to actually get everything on the table.
...
TGG needs KD:M, C'MoN or Myth numbers, not Bombshell Babes numbers.

I for one like their transparent and flexible scheme. The discount is directly visible and i can choose the miniatures i like. But i can see how a different way, e.g. by seemingly increasing the offered value over the course of the kickstarter campaign, might attract more pledged money. I guess those other successful kickstarters did not offer a noticeable discount up front but offered more and more "free" miniatures, often miniatures one had no use for, to up the value. Together with a rigid pledge level system that certainly entices people to up their pledges or add money to get the juicy bits. Since this kickstarter has already begun we are stuck with their scheme.

As to the mega funding levels, i don't think we'll reach them and i am not sure if we need to. The stretch goals could be unlocked way earlier.

 Minx wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:
But the biggest problem is that having a lot of options to choose from doesn't actually increase the value of the pledge. More flexible, to be sure, but if you look at the projects that hit the mega funding levels, how flexible were they?
...
TGG needs about a million (mega) dollars to actually get everything on the table.
...
TGG needs KD:M, C'MoN or Myth numbers, not Bombshell Babes numbers.

I for one like their transparent and flexible scheme. The discount is directly visible and i can choose the miniatures i like. But i can see how a different way, e.g. by seemingly increasing the offered value over the course of the kickstarter campaign, might attract more pledged money. I guess those other successful kickstarters did not offer a noticeable discount up front but offered more and more "free" miniatures, often miniatures one had no use for, to up the value. Together with a rigid pledge level system that certainly entices people to up their pledges or add money to get the juicy bits. Since this kickstarter has already begun we are stuck with their scheme.

As to the mega funding levels, i don't think we'll reach them and i am not sure if we need to. The stretch goals could be unlocked way earlier.

Given what we've been told to date, we will need to meet them or everything will not 'unlock'.

I'd say there's a lack of enthusiasm for this one right now.




As noted, we're in a bit of a vicious cycle - until things unlock, pledges won't go up. If pledges don't go up, things won't get unlocked.

For all we know, RH may have already raised in 4 days more than they've made selling products for 2 or 3 years now - maybe they don't feel the need for much more?

I agree. It's a vicious cycle. There is no reason for me to add to my pledge until I know what I can add. As of now, everything available that I want is already covered in my pledge (and then some).

Also, as has been mentioned, their long dev cycle probably worked against it.

How have we been chomping at the bit for this to start? Have those that wanted this already pledged? Yes wew are stuck with their scheme, but the Freebie mechanic is an easy out to adding value. Surely they have already taken up the slack from the low funding goal vs initial model count ratio. I don't think freebie stretch goals would hurt the bottom line, if it increase the pledge totals.

But further more, I'd like to pose a question.

Has Kick starter become addictive? For miniature releases it seems to have become a much more pre order mechanism than what it is in most other genres.

As opposed to a way to launch a line it seems to often become the main vehicle for release. Who cares about retail when most of the audience buys into the Kick starter? Then since the money gathered is gone into production and customers satisfied, you can't sit back and produce what was started. No market. So the only recourse is another Kick starter. and another.

Are Kick starts like Pringles? Once you pop, you can't stop?

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd say there's a lack of enthusiasm for this one right now.

Guess it will be as unsuccessful as Buzzsaw's favorite, Kingdom Death: Monster then:



... or Deadzone:



But still better than Myth:



Oh, look, Dreamforge had only 133 backers and 20,000 $ on day 4, no way they will ever make it
(actually RH made more in 9 hours than Dreamforge in total)

My main issue is that I'm ready to drop a grand, I'm that interested in all the miniatures, I just don't see why I should put that money down right now.

I mean, for $995 KS nets me $1098 Retail worth of stuff. I'll just not include S&H as I consider it a wash either way. I still have to wait the same amount of time to receive product, so that's a wash as well.

Honestly it would make more sense, financially, to wait until it goes to retail and find a store that sells the stuff for anything more than 9% off. It also eliminates any risk of, well anything associated with a KS.

I'm trying to keep my other KS experiences (KoW, DZ, Myth, Robotech) separated from this one. I get that they aren't alike in several facets. I was a pretty vocal opponent of purchase add-ons as unlocks in Robotech, so this KS is like nails on a chalkboard at every stretch goal. I get what they need and what they are trying to do, but there has got to be more inherent value added somewhere.

I'd throw around some ballpark numbers trying to work from Retail backwards, but there plenty of sources where people can figure out that a manufacturer giving you a 9% discount is still making a massive profit. Considering Wholesale to Retail runs about 43%-47% markup in the miniatures market.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?

It seems to vary, often at random. You'll also notice a lot of the negative comments are coming from the same handful of people, and restate the same handful of points over and over again, never missing a chance to remind everyone how this latest development proves their pet theory about the nature of Kickstarter / RH's perceived arrogance / whatever right. Again, not that they're not entitled to be negative, but after a certain point, I do wonder why anyone wouldn't just simply abandon a KS they find so unsatisfactory, and move onto something they like more. Opinions have been expressed unambiguously, anyone you feel needs to be "warned" has been, your work here has been done.

Man goes to his doctor, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking." Man says he's fine, he just started and he feels great, he's not going to stop.

(blinkblink)

Well, that comparison was certainly random and hyperbolic as all heck.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Spoiler:

 Alpharius wrote:
I'd say there's a lack of enthusiasm for this one right now.

Guess it will be as unsuccessful as Buzzsaw's favorite, Kingdom Death: Monster then:



But still better than Myth:



Oh, look, Dreamforge had 133 backers on day 4, no way they will make it
(actually RH made more in 9 hours than Dreamforge in total)

I'll phrase this as gently as I can: you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. You've thrown up several campaign graphs, without any apparent appreciation of how they help or how they damage the point you seem to be making.

I apologize if that seems curt, but as I have now spent hundreds of words attempting to illustrate the thinking that led to my conclusions, you'll forgive me if acontextual images seem less then convincing.

grefven wrote:
I agree. It's a vicious cycle. There is no reason for me to add to my pledge until I know what I can add. As of now, everything available that I want is already covered in my pledge (and then some).

Indeed, though I'm sat waiting to see what the other heroines look like once we're close to getting them unlocked before making a final choice. Though at the current pace there is the risk that not everything will be unlocked. Though given it's currently sat at $316,642 and has barely moved today it's hard not to think that something needs to change in order to push us further up through the SGs and get everything unlocked. I mean, if we stay at the just over $8k a day figure (based on the total added yesterday) we're looking at another two days before we even get the next SG revealed and another three and a half days before we reach the mecha at $360k.

The most obvious response to this is that there's usually a lull after the initial rush as things settle down, which is fine and could well be the case. The worry is, though, that RH may not manage to pull in enough new backers once they get some more publicity out there in order to increase the average daily pledge and push us through the full range of SGs. This seems to be the route that they're wanting to go down, rather than the, seemingly, more popular option of increasing the value of pledge levels through unlocks to entice early pledges to pledge more and increase the total that way.

Whatever happens with this KS, I'm sure that it'll be a valuable learning experience for RH to take into the other KS projects that they have planned.

 Elemental wrote:

 Buzzsaw wrote:

Man goes to his doctor, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking." Man says he's fine, he just started and he feels great, he's not going to stop.

(blinkblink)

Well, that comparison was certainly random and hyperbolic as all heck.

You asked why people that do know better keep trying to help people that don't know better.

Why does anyone try to help people that don't want to be helped? Because they need it.

 TalonZahn wrote:
I mean, for $995 KS nets me $1098 Retail worth of stuff. I'll just not include S&H as I consider it a wash either way. I still have to wait the same amount of time to receive product, so that's a wash as well.

Honestly it would make more sense, financially, to wait until it goes to retail and find a store that sells the stuff for anything more than 9% off. It also eliminates any risk of, well anything associated with a KS.

I must be missing something, but how did you manage to reduce the 15-40% discount to 9%?