Raging Heroes [official] Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter - $698,548 Finish!

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**HisDivineShadow**

@somehow you realize you don't have to stay with the 'allotments' for heroines/supports/troops right?

The swap update removed that arbitrary separation in your 'funds'

I mean if you want what you want its fine. I'm also sticking with a basically what I was going for pre swap update.

150 EB Lt

3 JB Cmnd
1 JB reg
And some assortment of bikes/Arty/mecha
And an undetermined combo of Nepharya, Bernadette, Yoko, Mimi, or Parker.

**somewheresomehow**

Oh, I know HDS, which was why the Necropriestess' "funding" came from the Trooper section, since I am not going to grab the average heavy troopers right now, leaving a 20$ "slot" open.

And this is all based on my old list of what I wanted to buy. Currently, if the snipers are as bad as the Kurganovas' one, I will have space to get one of my 15$ minis from them, and allows me to cut my pledge even further and keep it closer to the original 253$ mark.

**Buzzsaw**

KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Buzzsaw wrote:
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I decided to do the math for my pledging.

Retail $330 + S&H
KS: $235 + S&H

What are you getting to accrue $95 in savings? Also, given that they claim "Commander Box $245 - Est. retail: $389 - ($240)" you're still rather short of their claimed values.

My math's a little rough because I used whole numbers, so heroines were just put down as $15 for example. ($10 Heroines that is)
but I'm getting the following:
6x $10 Heroines (one of these is the "free" heroine at the Commander level) [$39]
1x $20 Heroine [$5]
4x Grunts [$20]
2x Grunt CS [$10]
1x Heavy Grunt CS [$5]
2x Heavy Grunts [$10]
1x Sniper team [$6.50]

With freebies that gives me 62 odd models, all of which I can paint and enjoy for their own merits, two of which are good add ons for my army itself. (Kahno and Svetlana) I do intend to paint the rest for various stuff. How could I leave a model with the nickname "Chain Breaker" in the bits box?

Edit: For the record I have a EB Commander box at $230

Yup, $95.50 in "savings", of which 40% is from the $10 heroes.

See, ultimately the problem with posting tendentious math like they have (actually tendentious numbers, they didn't present their math) is that a non-trivial number of their offerings are actually (when adjusted for actuarial cost) are actually more expensive if bought ahead of time.

It boggles my mind that they thought that presenting these acontextual numbers was valuable.

**somewheresomehow**

We also don't know how much the "wave" shipping will cost us. Which could skyrocket our costs to definitely not anywhere near the savings we have now.

**timd**

I think part of the problem is that RH is more focused on individual figures than it is on units and especially armies. They don't have a game yet and so the company mind set isn't really thinking in terms of X many units of 5, 10 or 20 troops to make up an army. Most of us who are not solely painters think in these terms, but RH may not be there yet.

Would probably help the KS quite a bit to start throwing a few freebie units and troop boxes into the mix instead of just single figures. There is no reason they could not do this, as there is no price different between a higher priced heroine and a troop box set.

Sedition Wars, DreamForge, Wild West Exodus, WarZone Resurrection and DeadZone ALL used full units as freebies, as well as single figures and I'm quite sure that unit freebies helped them hit better numbers than if they had just had single figure as freebies.

**HisDivineShadow**

I agree with most of Buzzsaws points.

Presentation is everything. If they had left off the 'discount' price, and told us to pick 250 worth of product for the 165 LT pledge, I don't think anyone would be complaining.

My numbers are arbitrary and uncalculated. My only point is handing us this 'wholesale list' and selling packages 'at cost' doesn't give the same 'feeling' of value.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Timd good point. Send it to RH!

**Minx**

HisDivineShadow wrote:
I agree with most of Buzzsaws points.

Presentation is everything. If they had left off the 'discount' price, and told us to pick 250 worth of product for the 165 LT pledge, I don't think anyone would be complaining.

My numbers are arbitrary and uncalculated. My only point is handing us this 'wholesale list' and selling packages 'at cost' doesn't give the same 'feeling' of value.

Unfortunately Kickstarter told them not to use their point system that would have been similar to your idea. From the looks of it they had to come up with a different plan, i.e. the discounted and regular prices, at rather short notice leading to these hasty estimates we see now.
In terms of a feeling of value no discount but more freebies could have worked, although i prefer their more honest approach (disregarding their current mistakes(*) for the best case savings...).

(*) just look at the cadet and painter levels: same input but different results

**Vhalan**

timd wrote:
I think part of the problem is that RH is more focused on individual figures than it is on units and especially armies. They don't have a game yet and so the company mind set isn't really thinking in terms of X many units of 5, 10 or 20 troops to make up an army. Most of us who are not solely painters think in these terms, but RH may not be there yet.

That may be but you cant miss

RagingHeroes wrote:Three outstanding armies

every time you go to the KS page. They need to focus on the army value standpoint. The Heroes are a great deal but hero's does not an army make.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Minx wrote:

(*) just look at the cadet and painter levels: same input but different results

This. My mind, it is blown.

Minx, you're a herald, right? Can you point this out to them?

**Minx**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Minx wrote:

(*) just look at the cadet and painter levels: same input but different results

This. My mind, it is blown.

Minx, you're a herald, right? Can you point this out to them?

No, i am not. And i agree, one of the heralds should tell them to check their math and perhaps come up with a more realistic use case, where the majority of the pledge does not go towards the $10-heroines, to base their numbers on.

**HisDivineShadow**

I think the Cadet/Painter thing while confusing, is largely irrelevant. Same cost, same amount of value for you to spend. Fixing a typo in the retail value is all that's needed.

We are stuck with with the two largely identical levels, since the Swap update made them unnecessary.

**Minx**

HisDivineShadow wrote:
I think the Cadet/Painter thing while confusing, is largely irrelevant. Same cost, same amount of value for you to spend. Fixing a typo in the retail value is all that's needed.

We are stuck with with the two largely identical levels, since the Swap update made them unnecessary.

It's not about those two levels specifically but rather that none of the numbers seem to be "correct". They are creating too much controversy and confusion most likely due to fat fingering the calculator while trying to come up with the best case savings (or perhaps they were trying to calculate something else entirely; i don't know).

**Mathieu Raymond**

Exactly. If they themselves come up with different numbers with the same starting point, there is either someone's math competencies to be called into question, or they are being overly creative to come up with these figures.

Vhalan: some skirmish games treat your whole "army" as heroes that can be tailored. I'm trying to play devil's advocate here, I understand your point. Since most of their market has been single figures, maybe this is their mindset, like someone else said.

**Vhalan**

Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Since most of their market has been single figures, maybe this is their mindset, like someone else said.

Since they have been planning a Dark Elf army and Space Nuns at the same time as TGG, would anyone that plays WFB care to comment on how this pricing would work out for a system that plays at higher points values then 40k?

Its a good thing they lived this for 6 months. Could you imagine how off this would be if they only spent one month on the planning?

**Mathieu Raymond**

Actually, in February they stated that they had spent the better part of the last year planning it. Just to further reassure you.

**Azazelx**

Eep!

Anyway, assuming I don't pull my pledge

, I'll probably just get a pledge made entirely of $10 heroes. If there's actually enough of them unlocked. Why? Because the KS is a mess, and while I like all three factions, I won't be building an entirely new army out of any of them - instead they'll simply be incorporated into my large pool of various sci-fi humans from many manufacturers, all of which with a bit of tweaking can sub in variously for Imperial Guard, Inquisition, Imperial or Mega-City Judges, various human WarZone forces, etc, etc.

Since the $10 heroes are where the best $ value lies, are a known quantity - being metal models, and also the least risk (what will the troopers actually look like in their final restic form?) it seems to be the way to go. For myself at least. The question is really will there be enough $10 heroes to make staying in worthwhile? The $15 heroes may as well be bought at retail, for their minimal savings, as with some of the other model categories.

Of course, if there's not enough of them to make it worthwhile, I might end up reducing or dropping my pledge. I've got way too much money thrown at the screen for Kickstarted things that should hopefully appear and arrive at some future date, generally 6 months to a year or more later than initially offered. I have no illusions that RH will be almost unique and manage to actually be on time...

**Buzzsaw**

A couple of coments from RH;

We've been reading your comments, and it looks like you might have misunderstood some of the calculations of the pledges. First of all, please know that we have NOT changed anything in the maths and the costs of the pledges.
It would be totally dishonest on our part to do this.
What we HAVE DONE is GIVEN YOU MUCH MORE FLEXIBILITY in how you spend the value of your pledge. And we've tried to make it more straightforward and simple by doing the maths for you.

Also, if you pledged or are considering pledging at Commander Box level or above, please note that the value of the "Additional minis" (that is, the free minis) that are included at those pledge levels has been incorporated in the total value you can spend, to make it more simple.
This way, instead of being, for example, forced to get X free Heroines and Y free Troops, their value is now added to the value of your pledge so you can spread the total as you like.

By doing so, as @HisDivineShadow says, we are being very transparent, instead of trying to blind you with flashy deals and discounts formulas. What you are getting here are Raging Heroes miniatures at a discount of up to 35% BEFORE the added FREEBIES (which will increase this discount).

As for the Early Bird Pledges, the ones who got them are getting the exact same value to spend as the pledges that are not Early Bird. If you got the Early Bird Lieutenant Box at 150$ instead of 165$, you got a better deal since you've got the same amount to spend on your pledge than someone who pledged at the regular 165$, so you win 15 additional dollars.

Now, to make things even clearer, and since a lot of the information in some of the comments below are miscalculations or misinterpretations, here is a detailed example of how it works:

Here is the breakdown of a Commander Box pledge as described in the right hand-side of this page, with the Kickstarter pricing.
COMMANDER BOX ($245): 5 $10 Heroines (or $50 worth of Heroines) + 6 $15 Troops (or $90 worth of Troops) + 6 $15 Supports (or $90 worth of Supports) + Kickstarter exclusive miniature + 1 Additional $10 Heroine + the TGG Digital Artbook. This level also INCLUDES ACCESS TO ALL UNLOCKED FREEBIES

So, what would it cost if you bought this at Retail pricing?
Heroines 5 x $16,50 (retail price for 10$ Heroines) = $82,50
Troops 6 x $21,50 (retail price for most 15$ Troops) = $129,00
Support 6 x $21,50 (retail for most 15$ Support) = $129,00
Artbook+Drusilla x 1 = 14 +18 (retail prices) = $32,00
Extra H 1 x $16,50 (retail price for 10$ Heroines) = $16,50
TOTAL = $389

The discount from $389 to $245 is $144, that is 37%. This is without including the value of the FREEBIES, which currently totals an additional $100 of free product.
So, for the Commander Box, you'll get a total average discount of at least 50%!
And it will keep getting higher as you unlock additional freebies.

You will never get our minis at such a low price for a very simple reason. If they were less expensive, we would start losing money. And just so you know, we DON'T sell to discounters, and we have very strict terms with our retailers, so you are very unlikely to get any discount on Raging Heroes minis except through Kickstarter.

If you still have further questions, please contact us directly. We will be happy to help you make sense of anything that is still unclear.

Also;

@Psychotic Storm: You are absolutely correct!
The Retail pricing on the front page for the Troops are indeed wrong.
The retail pricing for the $15 Troops should be aligned with the $15 Supports retail pricing, that is, $21.50.
(Only the retail pricing for the motorbikes is at $20 instead of $21.50.)
This does not change the Kickstarter pricing, but it certainly impacts the discount calculations and explains the misunderstandings.
We are sorry for this error and are immediately fixing it.
[... walks away with her head hung in shame...]

**Widdershinz**

I haven't got piles of IG equivalents sitting around, so this is actually a good deal from where I'm sitting. A box of plastic Cadians costs $48 here, so three squads is $144 before postage. I'm getting that much, plus a half dozen heroines for a few jots more. Plus they're great models, female, and supporting a small company.

**Mathieu Raymond**

Well that should help out my math some.

**Buzzsaw**

COMMANDER BOX ($245): 5 $10 Heroines (or $50 worth of Heroines) + 6 $15 Troops (or $90 worth of Troops) + 6 $15 Supports (or $90 worth of Supports) + Kickstarter exclusive miniature + 1 Additional $10 Heroine + the TGG Digital Artbook. This level also INCLUDES ACCESS TO ALL UNLOCKED FREEBIES

So, what would it cost if you bought this at Retail pricing?
Heroines 5 x $16,50 (retail price for 10$ Heroines) = $82,50
Troops 6 x $21,50 (retail price for most 15$ Troops) = $129,00
Support 6 x $21,50 (retail for most 15$ Support) = $129,00
Artbook+Drusilla x 1 = 14 +18 (retail prices) = $32,00
Extra H 1 x $16,50 (retail price for 10$ Heroines) = $16,50
TOTAL = $389

The discount from $389 to $245 is $144, that is 37%. This is without including the value of the FREEBIES, which currently totals an additional $100 of free product.
So, for the Commander Box, you'll get a total average discount of at least 50%!
And it will keep getting higher as you unlock additional freebies.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is an incredibly confusing way of defining "discount", as it includes non-fungible items with arbitrary prices (that cannot be separated from the pledge level) in the "discount".

To wit, the calculation adds the value of the digital art book ($14), the KS exclusive miniature ($18) and the retail value of a $10 hero ($16.50), a sum of $48.50. Which means, in the example where the discount came to $144, $48.50 (more then 1/3 of the discount) is mostly non-fungible value.

This is putting aside that RH had previously (I believe) stated that the additional $10 hero can be tallied and added as $10 to the pledge, which means it may not pay for the highest discount $10 hero, but maybe part of a much less discounted mech. The simple fact is that the retail values they have put up are so wildly misleading, so reliant on unstated facts, that it's bordering on a deceptive statement in trade.

Let us put it another way: suppose one wanted complete freedom and pledged the $10 level, then added $90 (total pledge $100), because they wanted, say, 3 mechs and a $10 hero.

Would they have a discount of 37%? Not at all, because the mechs only have a discount of about 15%, so the $100 would buy $120 (3x$35 + $15) at "retail".

In order to get to their stated discount level, you have to not only cherry pick the best discounts (notice no heavy troops, no mechs, etc), but you also have to add in things that, while not without value, are not properly considered as "discounts".

Widdershinz wrote:
I haven't got piles of IG equivalents sitting around, so this is actually a good deal from where I'm sitting. A box of plastic Cadians costs $48 here, so three squads is $144 before postage. I'm getting that much, plus a half dozen heroines for a few jots more. Plus they're great models, female, and supporting a small company.

That may not be quite the fair comparison, heh. You're not only comparing them to one of the the highest priced makers on the market, but a maker that intentionally and notoriously puts the Australian market at exorbitant pricing. If you are interested in supporting small studios, might I point out DreamForge Games, which isn't just smaller (being literally 1 guy last I heard), but who makes very nice plastic infantry for a fraction of the price.

**Ecstasy in Service**

whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....

**Widdershinz**

Widdershinz wrote:
I haven't got piles of IG equivalents sitting around, so this is actually a good deal from where I'm sitting. A box of plastic Cadians costs $48 here, so three squads is $144 before postage. I'm getting that much, plus a half dozen heroines for a few jots more. Plus they're great models, female, and supporting a small company.

That may not be quite the fair comparison, heh. You're not only comparing them to one of the the highest priced makers on the market, but a maker that intentionally and notoriously puts the Australian market at exorbitant pricing. If you are interested in supporting small studios, might I point out DreamForge Games, which isn't just smaller (being literally 1 guy last I heard), but who makes very nice plastic infantry for a fraction of the price.

**Breotan**

Ecstasy in Service wrote:
whoa, I just found out about this cool kickstarter and have pledged a bit of money into it and wanted to what everyones thoughts about it were and.... this is not what I expected! I was just looking for some cool female figs to paint up for some 40k games and here people are going on about point costs and things. Guess I didn't take it that seriously....

Welcome to Dakka.

**AlexHolker**

@Psychotic Storm: You are absolutely correct!
The Retail pricing on the front page for the Troops are indeed wrong.
The retail pricing for the $15 Troops should be aligned with the $15 Supports retail pricing, that is, $21.50.
(Only the retail pricing for the motorbikes is at $20 instead of $21.50.)
This does not change the Kickstarter pricing, but it certainly impacts the discount calculations and explains the misunderstandings.
We are sorry for this error and are immediately fixing it.
[... walks away with her head hung in shame...]

Seriously? Fething seriously? Raising the RRP by 30/70 cents per model makes these an even worse foundation for an army, since they just bumped up the price of expanding a TGG army by twenty percent.

**HisDivineShadow**

Alex, are they supposed to simply give them to you? Wargaming is not a cheap hobby.
Maybe you could just find a skirmish game.

**Buzzsaw**

AlexHolker wrote:
@Psychotic Storm: You are absolutely correct!
The Retail pricing on the front page for the Troops are indeed wrong.
The retail pricing for the $15 Troops should be aligned with the $15 Supports retail pricing, that is, $21.50.
(Only the retail pricing for the motorbikes is at $20 instead of $21.50.)
This does not change the Kickstarter pricing, but it certainly impacts the discount calculations and explains the misunderstandings.
We are sorry for this error and are immediately fixing it.
[... walks away with her head hung in shame...]

Seriously? Fething seriously? Raising the RRP by 30/70 cents per model makes these an even worse foundation for an army, since they just bumped up the price of expanding a TGG army by twenty percent.

It seems the more disturbing that they have engaged in so very many systemic errors with regards to... well, almost everything.

The "discount" on the pledges is profoundly misleading, bordering on violating some real ethical rules.

Their prices, in addition to being rather elastic it appears (really, they didn't notice, in this project that has been "in planning for months" that they had the wrong numbers up?), the MSRPs are skirmish game high. That is, their MSRP for many of their boxes are approaching the prices that companies like PP charge for units in their skirmish games. Which would be fine, save that there does not seem to be an intent for these troop boxes to be used in such a fashion. Their metal figures are... pricey. Heck they are pricey at their kickstarter prices, at MSRP they are amazingly expensive, often with no rhyme or reason.

A poster on the comments to the most recent update put it quite well: " I _want_ to really love this project - so why are you taking many opportunities to kill my enthusiasm and to try and smother me in marketing-speak and potentially legitimate but intellectually dishonest numbers?"

**AlexHolker**

HisDivineShadow wrote:
Alex, are they supposed to simply give them to you?

You know Games Workshop? The company known for jacking their prices up to a ridiculous degree?

You know the Empire Greatswords, a kit known for being ridiculously overpriced even by Games Workshop standards?

Raging Heroes' basic infantry are more expensive than these.

I'm not asking to be given the models for free. I just want the basic rank-and-file to be in the same price range as, say, Dark Eldar Warriors/Wyches. $2.80 before discounts is an acceptable price to me. $4.30 is not.

**Azazelx**

AlexHolker wrote:
@Psychotic Storm: You are absolutely correct!
The Retail pricing on the front page for the Troops are indeed wrong.
The retail pricing for the $15 Troops should be aligned with the $15 Supports retail pricing, that is, $21.50.
(Only the retail pricing for the motorbikes is at $20 instead of $21.50.)
This does not change the Kickstarter pricing, but it certainly impacts the discount calculations and explains the misunderstandings.
We are sorry for this error and are immediately fixing it.
[... walks away with her head hung in shame...]

Seriously? Fething seriously? Raising the RRP by 30/70 cents per model makes these an even worse foundation for an army, since they just bumped up the price of expanding a TGG army by twenty percent.

So what exactly did they raise? And from what to what?

**Jimsolo**

I think most people went into this expecting the models to be expensive, Alex. We've talked about this before, but the higher quality of the miniatures, as well as the fact that they aren't doing them in plastic (not now and not in the foreseeable future) means that they're going to wind up being more than GW rank and file troops. I'm sorry this upsets you, but I don't think that aspect of this KS is going to change.

I'm really mystified as to what people are seeing as unethical here.

**somewheresomehow**

Azazelx, they finally put in the cost for the "free upgrades" to the 15 dollar troop boxes, since those hadn't been factored in (originally.)