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Stop trying to put words in my mouth, Azazel, because you fething suck at it.

My argument is and always has been that the cost of entry should be low enough that someone can build a "pauper" army of the cheap stuff to serve as the foundation for a more refined army later. It does not mean that you should jack up the cost of entry of other armies just because.

If you simply don't have the funds to afford HIPS, that's fine. I have no beef with Vic or Mad Robot for that. But if you spend three bloody months being a cocktease before you admit that your prices are going to be gak, and you've got the million dollars and the time to do things right, I'm going to think less of you for settling for the mediocrity of an expensive and completely untested material like the latest flavour of restic.

Because you want HIPS it does not mean they want, it does not mean the product can be serviced with HIPS and of course it does not mean they feel the urge to contract a Chinese factory to do their work.

Also you base your price assumptions as proxy for GW games, why should they be priced like that? because you want it?

I thought plastic was dismissed quite some time ago?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azazelx wrote:
Now please stop making me defend RH. It's making me feel dirty.

Dirty? I thought playing the white knight would be..

 AlexHolker wrote:
Stop trying to put words in my mouth, Azazel, because you fething suck at it.

My argument is and always has been that the cost of entry should be low enough that someone can build a "pauper" army of the cheap stuff to serve as the foundation for a more refined army later. It does not mean that you should jack up the cost of entry of other armies just because.

If you simply don't have the funds to afford HIPS, that's fine. I have no beef with Vic or Mad Robot for that. But if you spend three bloody months being a cocktease before you admit that your prices are going to be gak, and you've got the million dollars and the time to do things right, I'm going to think less of you for settling for the mediocrity of an expensive and completely untested material like the latest flavour of restic.

Isn't cost of entry a Games Workshop issue - particularly related to the Warhammer 40k rules set? Your argument implies a customer who will buy these miniatures for 40k, and thus the minis should be cheaper because a lot of miniatures are needed to use the 40k rules. But what about someone who is using home-brewed rules, DUST, Infinity, Force on Force, Tomorrow's War, Deadzone, and so on?

The pricing comes out to ~$4 a mini for grunts at retail before any discounts and shipping, which isn't that bad - provided you don't need a hundred of them for what game you're playing. GW may be the behemoth in the industry, but they aren't the only company out there. I imagine the price is set to what RH needs it to be to stay in business. $30 (Kickstarter price) for 10 resin-plastic models with some extra options isn't a terrible deal by a long shot, especially if the casting process can stand up to the detail that we've seen in the renders.

I do agree that the hero models are a bit pricey for being metals, especially when Reaper, Foundry, Perry Miniatures, and several other companies are doing metals for much less. My best guess would be an economies of scale issue, but I'm not privy to that information. If you were part of the KS, the heroes came out far ahead of the other models in terms of the discount received. Although, the prices given are estimated retail prices. They could very well end up close to the KS price at retail once this whole thing is finished.

I also agree that RH would be wise to consider researching plastic production opportunities, but I'm not sure that's what the company wants right now. If RH is not looking to get into plastics, then customers will have to look elsewhere to meet their gaming and modelling desires, which is disappointing, but there it is.

~iPaint

Jimsolo wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Maybe they see the creative part of the process as the 80%.

Inspiration can be hard to come by. The rest can be handled by low-wage employees in India. Or China.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have to think about it though, how many people looked at the campaign and did not pledge, thinking they could wait a mere three months to get the troops and then... completely forgetting about it "a toute fin pratique." Sure, they'll remember once they see someone playing with them, a couple of years down the line, in a FLGS.

I'm not touching their next KS with a hundred foot pole. My money means nothing to them. (Yes, by being treated as such, this is how I feel) If they really want it, they'll need to bring something to market.

Not trying to be contrary, just curious: do you still buy GW product? I only ask because I feel like RH cares WAY more about our opinions and our patronage than GW does. (Really, not trying to start something, just honestly curious. Have you reached the point of frustration where you are only paying out your money to companies that you think are listening to your opinions, or is it that you felt like there was going to be more input with RH and have become disillusioned?)

You may have a point. I feel spoiled by Dreamforge and Paulson Games. Both have asked for opinions and feedback by showing WIPs, or downright responding to personal emails and incorporating ideas. They may have coloured my impression of how to do business. Then again, my wife says that I am her "consumate salesman" at work and custom framing is eminently a feedback-based product. I don't feel that GW responds or cares much about customer feedback or community input. And to answer your question, no I don't send money GW's way much these days. I'm trying to get rid of my Space Marines, I have a fully proxy'd Astra Militarum army in the works, I even use other minis for their RPGs. I might buy, ironically, rulebooks, just because my gaming group is still very skittish about other game systems. GW doesn't go crowd-funding, however. Maybe I see it as a gentlemen's agreement: You get my money, but you be a good sport about making me feel implicated in the process. Unspoken, but no less extant.

PsychoticStorm wrote:Because you want HIPS it does not mean they want, it does not mean the product can be serviced with HIPS and of course it does not mean they feel the urge to contract a Chinese factory to do their work.

Also you base your price assumptions as proxy for GW games, why should they be priced like that? because you want it?

There is a strong commitment to making stuff locally both in Europe and in some segments of American culture. It's a way to beat the stagnating economy. "Made in China" sometimes means a product sells less in some circles. I wouldn't be surprised if that was part of the impetus. If it is, they should advertise it as such.

 -iPaint- wrote:
Isn't cost of entry a Games Workshop issue - particularly related to the Warhammer 40k rules set? Your argument implies a customer who will buy these miniatures for 40k, and thus the minis should be cheaper because a lot of miniatures are needed to use the 40k rules. But what about someone who is using home-brewed rules, DUST, Infinity, Force on Force, Tomorrow's War, Deadzone, and so on?

I think people who aren't buying these models as GW proxies are the minority. I think it's understood that these models were always intended to be third party substitutes for GW models.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 -iPaint- wrote:
Isn't cost of entry a Games Workshop issue - particularly related to the Warhammer 40k rules set? Your argument implies a customer who will buy these miniatures for 40k, and thus the minis should be cheaper because a lot of miniatures are needed to use the 40k rules. But what about someone who is using home-brewed rules, DUST, Infinity, Force on Force, Tomorrow's War, Deadzone, and so on?

I think people who aren't buying these models as GW proxies are the minority. I think it's understood that these models were always intended to be third party substitutes for GW models.

Agreed. Though for the life of me, I can't remember what I wanted to use them for...

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
" [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "

Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.

Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.

 Wehrkind wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
" [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "

Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.

Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.

Depends on how you see the issue. If best bang for your buck is the be all end all then I agree. A lot of business owners and consumers now want to know that the money stays in the community and helps people in it. Call it socialism if you want to, a lot of people just feel a stronger kinship or concern for them rather than an even more faceless Chinese worker. As the owner of a business that relies almost exclusively on local labor and products... I'm quite happy that not everyone buys the same 4 pieces of art from IKEA.

 Wehrkind wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
" [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "

Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.

Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.

I am quite curious myself how the economists explain how this is beneficial, when its main effect is unemployment something evident in all western world.

Sure it lowers the products cost but money must be generated for the consumer to be able to buy the product even at a lower price.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Wehrkind wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
" [domestic manufacture] is a way to beat the stagnating economy. "

Not to single you out or anything, but as an economist statements like this make my skin crawl. It is just so wrong. So wrong, in fact, that the opposite is in fact true: finding the lowest cost producers of a good is beneficial to the economy, no matter where they live or what language they speak.

Ugh, sorry. I really don't mean to go after you, just the idea.

I am quite curious myself how the economists explain how this is beneficial, when its main effect is unemployment something evident in all western world.

Sure it lowers the products cost but money must be generated for the consumer to be able to buy the product even at a lower price.

And having an export balance rather than an import balance for a country is *generally* seen as a good thing. Again, specific cases can be built against it too. But we're going OT. If only Raging Heroes would give us something to talk about...

All I know is there's a Kingdom Death update coming soon, so that will ease the pain quite a bit for me.

True some form of update, or indication they have a pulse would not be bad.

Now now, let us not be ungrateful little gaks and instead be more positive about this all, as soon as we got something, anything positive to cling onto.

An update is up! At... 6AM Paris time? These guys really are using some serious drugs, aren't they?

As an aside, while the stuff looks really good, what the hell? It's like they are frustrated film makers; it's not enough to put out a fine looking render, you have to action pose it. There are F-ing Dutch angles on the freaking renders. I think that actually is it, these folk act like just making miniatures is beneath them, so everything has to be a production.

An update as things happen? Nah, why do that when you can photoshop a month's worth of work into a montage of yelling/screaming miniatures?

As a final aside, I'm endlessly amused that this,

Exists in the same world as this,

Seriously dynamite miniatures. I'm super stoked. Can't wait.

This IS a great update.

I see they're still sticking to the 80% thing.

Also, the amount of pretty alternate faces in the Iron Empire makes no sense, I thought they were all hideously disfigured and hid their faces, because the pretty ones were the only fertile ones or something like that?

But again, maybe I missed it, but when will we get wave 1?

Well it is an update.

And a nice one too, I will have to agree with Buzzsaw It does feel a bit too complicated towards perfectionism.

In any case I cannot wait for them, but I do feel I will wait for the final waive because in the end many heroines will be to my liking.

The weapons platforms and bikes remain both overpriced and crap designs. The weapon platforms have tiny, top-heavy chassis that do not look like they could credibly move under their own power without falling over, and the bikes have forward-firing machine guns on a vehicle which would be incapable of doing anything but drive in a straight line.

Due to your very positive feedback on spin-cast Heroines, and the fact that we had to do some more works on the Troops, we have decided to turn the production schedule around, and produce at least a large chunk of spin-cast resin Heroines before getting back to the Troops.

-_-

Well, no troops for me then, looks like GW and Victoria Miniatures are back on the menu boys!

The miniatures just look ******* amazing to me, almost every single one.

The sculpts look pretty decent IMO. I'm with Bullockist from earlier, I'm so overextended on other stuff that frankly the delays are probably for the best.

The fact that the update came in right after people were asking for it, plus all the delicious update content itself...

RH fem troops may be eclipsed by the Vic Arcadians when taking everything into account. Mixed male/female regiment, great quality, extra parts, full multi-part/multi-pose. The male Arcadians so far look great, and the WIP fems have looked promising too. Scale is perfect for 40k too whereas RH is possibly a touch large.

Well #42 is pretty much exactly what I wanted it to be, which just makes me even more annoyed that the unit of cyber zombies still has that melee artwork, fingers crossed for a change there still.

Resin spincasts definitely seem to come out well if they all turn out like the ones they've shown us, always been a bit dubious of both the material and the method before.

 Yonan wrote:
RH fem troops may be eclipsed by the Vic Arcadians when taking everything into account. Mixed male/female regiment, great quality, extra parts, full multi-part/multi-pose. The male Arcadians so far look great, and the WIP fems have looked promising too. Scale is perfect for 40k too whereas RH is possibly a touch large.

Not just large, but the way some of the ladies spread those legs they're having a hard time fitting onto a regular 28mm base, just look at the three sisters, gak, do they need to stop doing that.

My only hope right now is that they'll also include general Wolfenstein with the first wave.

From what we've seen here and there, the first image for the future Sisters of Eternal Mercy project (our next Kickstarter) has...

So Sisters will be on the docket next KS? Shoot. Need to adjust my timetable and saving/spending budgets.

I'm planning to get a lot of Vic's female figs as well... got three regiments to sort models for.

Regarding the update, loving pretty much all the models on display, can't wait for that first wave to arrive now.