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so 2 of my buds go bck and forth so much abt this
if you have the sky sheild closed and models in it and a enemy model assualts you the atop but can be placed any were in base to base due to ur models being all over the skyshield does the enemy model fail the assualt as it cant be placed base to base?

It's fairly split on Dakka as well. Basically it all depends on how you look at WMS.

Here is a thread with it talking about it. Plus there is no how you look at it for WMS. WMS is pretty cut and dry.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/528197.page

 Enigma Crisis wrote:
Here is a thread with it talking about it. Plus there is no how you look at it for WMS. WMS is pretty cut and dry.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/528197.page

Yet people have 2 separate views on it.

So yes it really does depend on how you view WMS.

Otherwise everyone would agree that WMS just simply does X

WMS isn't an entitlement to defy physics, it's there so you don't damage models if someone bumps the table (which is bound to occur as you reach for models). People will use WMS for some pretty spectacular stuff, like holding hypothetical positions.

This is sadly how some people think it works:







Check this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/490885.page

The spelling/grammar of this poll makes me worry for humanity.
Unless you're typing on a 10 year old Nokia, there's really no excuse...

WMS = The rule just gives you permission to count as being somewhere that you could place the model but don't want to place it because of the risk of getting knocked over, it doesn't give you permission to count it as being somewhere that you can't place it at all.


so you would need to shoot some models out of the way first other wise you cant be in base to base as you cant float.. and its a unique terrian so you cant ur ruins or building rules



Automatically Appended Next Post:
i use to play video games so my words are all out of place :(

Yeah and it;s worth pointing out that ruins have a rule that allows you to fudge the base to base requirements for close combat, allowing units to fight cc a floor above or below their location. The Skyshield does not have that, you and your opponent could certainly implement that in your pre game discussion but with the rules it currently has it can be quite troublesome to assault up there.

 Crablezworth wrote:
WMS isn't an entitlement to defy physics, it's there so you don't damage models if someone bumps the table (which is bound to occur as you reach for models). People will use WMS for some pretty spectacular stuff, like holding hypothetical positions.

This is sadly how some people think it works:







Check this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/490885.page

I've balanced some of those models in those positions on tables just to prove it can be done. It takes a long time to find the "sweet spot" but with patience you can do it.

I for one don't mind taking up an hour doing my movement if you wanted to disagree that my model won't sit there.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
WMS isn't an entitlement to defy physics, it's there so you don't damage models if someone bumps the table (which is bound to occur as you reach for models). People will use WMS for some pretty spectacular stuff, like holding hypothetical positions.

This is sadly how some people think it works:







Check this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/490885.page

I've balanced some of those models in those positions on tables just to prove it can be done. It takes a long time to find the "sweet spot" but with patience you can do it.

I for one don't mind taking up an hour doing my movement if you wanted to disagree that my model won't sit there.

You must be a popular opponent...

I'll give you credit though, at least you agree that you have to show the model can balane where you're attempting to place it, many on dakka choose to ignore that part of the rules and go straight to treating wms as an entitelemt.

Well, placing a model in the air halfway up the Skyshield is no mean feat. WMS or not.

 Crablezworth wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
WMS isn't an entitlement to defy physics, it's there so you don't damage models if someone bumps the table (which is bound to occur as you reach for models). People will use WMS for some pretty spectacular stuff, like holding hypothetical positions.

This is sadly how some people think it works:







Check this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/490885.page

I've balanced some of those models in those positions on tables just to prove it can be done. It takes a long time to find the "sweet spot" but with patience you can do it.

I for one don't mind taking up an hour doing my movement if you wanted to disagree that my model won't sit there.

You must be a popular opponent...

I'll give you credit though, at least you agree that you have to show the model can balane where you're attempting to place it, many on dakka choose to ignore that part of the rules and go straight to treating wms as an entitelemt.

I'd only do so if they argued impossible, I have a couple odd skills. Balancing stuff and Claw Machines. Most people in our play group know I won't do the impossible, just the improbable. Also worth noting it makes gameplay go alot smoother if we take that into account.

 Shandara wrote:
Well, placing a model in the air halfway up the Skyshield is no mean feat. WMS or not.

Agreed

Crablezworth, as was pointed out the first time it was posted, nobody thinks that's how WMS works.

It doesn't allow models to go somewhere they couldn't actually move to.

That's not the issue with the Skyshield, however, since the Skyshield rules explicitly allow models to ignore gravity as they move. It's not an issue of using WMS to place models somewhee they couldn't actually go. It's an issue of using WMS to allow models to be somewhere that the rules specifically allow them to go, even though that isn't actually physically possible.

 insaniak wrote:
Crablezworth, as was pointed out the first time it was posted, nobody thinks that's how WMS works.

It doesn't allow models to go somewhere they couldn't actually move to.

That's not the issue with the Skyshield, however, since the Skyshield rules explicitly allow models to ignore gravity as they move. It's not an issue of using WMS to place models somewhee they couldn't actually go. It's an issue of using WMS to allow models to be somewhere that the rules specifically allow them to go, even though that isn't actually physically possible.

It doesn't give them the same permissions as ruins or barricades to fight without being in base to base, justs because you want it to doesn't make it so. As I've said, talk about it pre game with your opponent.

And this is why no one in my group uses a fortification except ADL with Quad-Gun.

 Crablezworth wrote:
It doesn't give them the same permissions as ruins or barricades to fight without being in base to base, justs because you want it to doesn't make it so. .

I have never claimed that it does. Although I very strongly suspect that if it is ever FAQ'd, that's how it will go.

 insaniak wrote:
It's an issue of using WMS to allow models to be somewhere that the rules specifically allow them to go, even though that isn't actually physically possible.

The rules don't allow you to go there. Moving from the bottom to the top is a difficult terrain test, if you roll high enough you move instantly from the ground to the top, if you fail to roll high enough you stay on the ground. There is no option to remain floating in the air next to the platform.

Also, WMS explicitly requires you to place the model before moving it away to a safer location. If you can't place it at all (for example, because the spot in question is an arbitrary point in midair) WMS doesn't apply and you can't move there.

I'm fairly sure we went over all of that last time around, and established that WMS does not, in fact, explicitly require you to physically place the model first, and that such a requirement would make WMS next to useless.

The simple fact is that there are great gaping holes in all of the fortification rules. In this case, we're told that models can move up to the to with a difficult terrain test, but not how to resolve it if that test is not sufficient to reach the top. In all other difficult terrain except ruins, you simply move the model as far as they can move. Your rule about not being able to stop between levels comes from the ruins rules... And if we're going to borrow rules from ruins, we might as well also borrow the one about being able to assault models on the level above, since that prevents a situation where models in an otherwise normally accessible location can be unassailable due to dodgy terrain design creating a grey area in the rules.

 insaniak wrote:
I'm fairly sure we went over all of that last time around, and established that WMS does not, in fact, explicitly require you to physically place the model first, and that such a requirement would make WMS next to useless.

The simple fact is that there are great gaping holes in all of the fortification rules. In this case, we're told that models can move up to the to with a difficult terrain test, but not how to resolve it if that test is not sufficient to reach the top. In all other difficult terrain except ruins, you simply move the model as far as they can move. Your rule about not being able to stop between levels comes from the ruins rules... And if we're going to borrow rules from ruins, we might as well also borrow the one about being able to assault models on the level above, since that prevents a situation where models in an otherwise normally accessible location can be unassailable due to dodgy terrain design creating a grey area in the rules.

This. The most common approach I see to handling the Skyshield is to treat it like a two-level ruin.

 insaniak wrote:
I'm fairly sure we went over all of that last time around, and established that WMS does not, in fact, explicitly require you to physically place the model first, and that such a requirement would make WMS next to useless.

You said it, but that doesn't make it true. WMS clearly says it's talking about placing a model and then moving it to a safer location, and it doesn't make it useless. I've used it correctly many times to protect delicate models.

In this case, we're told that models can move up to the to with a difficult terrain test, but not how to resolve it if that test is not sufficient to reach the top.

Because we don't need to. The situation is already covered by the general rule that if you can't place a model at the desired end point of its move you can't move there. In this case you end your move on the ground, within the distance rolled on your difficult terrain test.

Your rule about not being able to stop between levels comes from the ruins rules...

No, it comes from the fact that you can't have a model floating in midair.

And if we're going to borrow rules from ruins, we might as well also borrow the one about being able to assault models on the level above, since that prevents a situation where models in an otherwise normally accessible location can be unassailable due to dodgy terrain design creating a grey area in the rules.

But it isn't normally accessible. This is no more of a problem than units behind LOS blocking terrain being unshootable.

 Peregrine wrote:
You said it, but that doesn't make it true. WMS clearly says it's talking about placing a model and then moving it to a safer location, and it doesn't make it useless. I've used it correctly many times to protect delicate models.

Absolutely me saying it doesn't make it true. The rulebook never actually saying what you claim it does is what makes it true...

The situation is already covered by the general rule that if you can't place a model at the desired end point of its move you can't move there.

Where is this general rule located?

No, it comes from the fact that you can't have a model floating in midair.

Citation needed.

I've explained the rules that allow it in this particular case several times previously. Where is your rule that says otherwise?

But it isn't normally accessible.

Yes it is. Models are free to move up or down off the skyshield as they please.

For any other piece of non-enclosed terrain, models don't become unassaultable just because enemy models don't have room to move onto the same piece of terrain... You either move up to the edge, or (in the case of ruins) just move as close as you can.

The skyshield creates a unique situation where, if you decide that a model's ability to move through a given part of the battlefield is contingent on whether or not it finishes its movement there) models are unassaultable simply by standing on the edge of a big, open (but indestructible) platform. And that's gakky game design.

Either of the two options (using WMS to allow models to stand just off the platform, or using the rules for assaulting in ruins) keeps the skyshield in line with every other piece of terrain in the game.

 insaniak wrote:
The rulebook never actually saying what you claim it does is what makes it true...

Let's read the rulebook:

"If you delicately balance it in place, it is very likely to fall as soon as somebody nudges the table, leaving your beautifully painted miniature damaged or even broken."

This is very clearly talking about a situation in which a model CAN be placed in a given location, but the owner would prefer to have it in a safer spot. And then we see this:

"... it is perfectly acceptable to leave the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location.

So use of WMS at all is dependent on your opponent giving permission. Besides the fact that I'm entitled to refuse your request to use it (including attempting to assault onto a Skyshield) this strongly supports the idea that WMS is about protecting models, not gaining extra movement options.

Where is this general rule located?

It's located in the place where you find absolutely no mention of being able to count models as being somewhere that it is impossible to place the model.

Citation needed.

No, you have this backwards. YOU need to cite the rule that allows you to have a model count as being somewhere that it isn't. And WMS and ruins don't apply.

Yes it is. Models are free to move up or down off the skyshield as they please.

Only if they have a legal ending point for their move. If there isn't space to place a model on the Skyshield then it isn't accessible. For example, if the Skyshield is sitting on top of lethal terrain you don't get to ignore the lethal terrain just because you want to move off of it.

For any other piece of non-enclosed terrain, models don't become unassaultable just because enemy models don't have room to move onto the same piece of terrain...

Sure they do. The only case where you CAN assault without being in base contact is when both sides have models in base contact with opposite sides of a wall. In any other case if terrain prevents you from putting the models in base contact you don't get to assault.

The skyshield creates a unique situation where, if you decide that a model's ability to move through a given part of the battlefield is contingent on whether or not it finishes its movement there) models are unassaultable simply by standing on the edge of a big, open (but indestructible) platform. And that's gakky game design.

Maybe you should consider bringing some guns and using your shooting phase to make room for your models to assault onto the platform?

Either of the two options (using WMS to allow models to stand just off the platform, or using the rules for assaulting in ruins) keeps the skyshield in line with every other piece of terrain in the game.

No, they take it OUT of line with all other terrain by creating a special case where models can float in midair to assault, just because it would be "overpowered" if they can't.

 Peregrine wrote:
Besides the fact that I'm entitled to refuse your request to use it (including attempting to assault onto a Skyshield)...

Fine by me... My current approach to fortifications is to not use them until GW write actual, complete rules for them, so it would be unlikely to come up in game anyway

It's located in the place where you find absolutely no mention of being able to count models as being somewhere that it is impossible to place the model.

Ah. So your 'general rule' doesn't actually exist, then?

No, you have this backwards. YOU need to cite the rule that allows you to have a model count as being somewhere that it isn't. And WMS and ruins don't apply.

Well, yes, if you discount the rule that applies to the situation, there is no rule that applies to the situation. Well done.

No, they take it OUT of line with all other terrain by creating a special case where models can float in midair to assault, ...

... which is a situation that GW created by allowing models to walk through empty air to get up there...

...just because it would be "overpowered" if they can't.

GW have shown in the past that they are quite happy to change rules to satisfy perceived game balance. Reference the Dark Angels power field vs transport vehicle ruling in the DA FAQ.

The rule you are looking for is called "Ruins and Assaults". No WMS is included anywhere in the area, so you don't need to read anything that will refer to it. Seriously, don't. It's not helping you. Now, onto the simple wording of the rule. Prepare for simplicity with textual enhancements.

In some cases, the ruin might genuinely be unstable or uneven, or the space could be very limited on a particular level, making it impossible to move charging models into base to base contact with the unit they wish to charge. When this happens, it is perfectly acceptable to place models as close to their foe as possible, including the level below or above, providing that you make it clear to your opponent which of your models are in base to base contact with his models. We find that directly below or above works well, representing them charging up or down a flight of stairs.

And to quote the beautiful bold lettering above that, "...A model is engaged in combat if it in base contact with one or more enemy models, if it is within 2 inches of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models on the same level or if it is within 6 inches of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models on a different level.

Gentlemen, case closed, glad to be of help.

Oh no, Not again!

RAW, assault fails.

It's not a ruin, and the rules do not allow you to levitate, or defy gravity. Or can I use WMS to levitate over impassible terrain?

Can we stop looking at one static picture of the skyshield when we have this conversation and trying to warp physics to make it work? ie non RAW.

if you assault it, your entire unit needs to be able to reach the top or the assault fails due to not being able to maintain coherency. It does not make the skyshield unassaultable, just shoot it some more to make room and assault the next turn.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
The rule you are looking for is called "Ruins and Assaults".

No it isn't. The Skyshield is not a ruin, therefore the rules for ruins are about as relevant as the rules for WHFB.

sirlynchmob wrote:
..., and the rules do not allow you to levitate, or defy gravity.

So models move up to the platform... how, exactly?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
The rule you are looking for is called "Ruins and Assaults".

As has been pointed out, the skyshield is not a ruin.

It's a common workaround to use the ruins rules, but not actually RAW.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
..., and the rules do not allow you to levitate, or defy gravity.

So models move up to the platform... how, exactly?

With a difficult terrain test, that is how you move onto, or off from the shield. It does not mean the entire area under the shield is difficult terrain. Otherwise just moving under the shield would always be difficult terrain, and its not. It's just that simple, you make the test, and if you roll 4+" you can get onto or off from the shield, if not, you can not float under the shield. Like any other difficult terrain test, if you don't roll high enough to get into the terrain, you still need to make the test and use the results. Otherwise you are advocating you can levitate around the battle field and I can then levitate over other dangerous or impossible terrain.

It's completely possible to make a Skyshield literally impervious to assault without WMS.

You need LoS to assault. It's pretty easy to stand 1.5" or so back from the edge with short models (Rippers, Scarabs, Grots, etc.) and ensure you cannot place a model on top to get LoS. "Just shoot them". Sure. No problem. Every time you shoot something it does, right? You've never failed to kill something?