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 Peregrine wrote:
Sure, but that's a rule change in the context of an entire edition change, not a house rule. They are two very different things.

It wasn't just the edition change. They changed that rule halfway through 5th edition.

But my point was simply that we have a rule that people are taking a couple of different ways, and a very, very similar issue that GW has addressed in the past. It seems somewhat counter-intuitive to ignore that precedent.

While consistency isn't something that GW always care about, it's usually a good place to start.

Just admit that it's a house rule to change something you don't like and that's the end of it.

Agreeing that we both read the WMS rules differently is just as much an end to it... There are no prizes for 'winning' the thread

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You can be in the center of the Skyshield, roll for DT and move through the floor off of the skyshield.

What rule allows you to do this (edit: "move through the floor")? I know that Ruins work in this manner (edit: being able to move through solid matter), but usually with terrain (edit: hills, buildings, gun emplacements, archeotech) you have to move to the edge of a cliff and then move down (edit: you may not move through physical objects that aren't Ruins). Why assume that moving onto/off of the Skyshield includes moving through the piece of terrain (edit: unlike most other terrain [yes, I know about Ruins])?

The rule for the Skyshield, on page 115, that says "To move onto or off of the landing pad counts as moving through difficult terrain."

As do you, I own the rulebook, and read it frequently. I read this rule before asking my question. Did my phrasing throw you off? Did you need an example? I added some clarifications to my question, included in this post.

The rules fir difficult terrain allow you to move through obstructions.

 insaniak wrote:
So you're suggesting that a land raider gets on and off via the ladders?

If they had made it a battlement this would already be answered with the rules for embarking and access points, like the original rules seemed to support with the mention of access points. This would have lead to a unit the was impossible to assault though which they seem to be trying to address by making it just terrain but allowing vehicles to move onto it which caused different problems like no rules for assaults and hovering models.

We play it no land based vehicles on or off but YMMV. While I agree it says they can get on or off we try to play it in a way that makes some sense with you know physics and all.

Gravmyr wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
So you're suggesting that a land raider gets on and off via the ladders?

If they had made it a battlement this would already be answered with the rules for embarking and access points, like the original rules seemed to support with the mention of access points. This would have lead to a unit the was impossible to assault though which they seem to be trying to address by making it just terrain but allowing vehicles to move onto it which caused different problems like no rules for assaults and hovering models.

We play it no land based vehicles on or off but YMMV. While I agree it says they can get on or off we try to play it in a way that makes some sense with you know physics and all.

but allowing vehicles is one of the best way to free up room on the skyshield. Tank shock a unit up there and squish a few, enjoy the 4++ while they try to get rid of your vehicle. Then if they blow it up, take the position that the explosion doesn't count as enemy fire, because a enemy unit didn't shoot them and they don't get the 4++ from vehicle explosions.

A packed skyshield is a Mawlocs best friend...

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
As do you, I own the rulebook, and read it frequently. I read this rule before asking my question. Did my phrasing throw you off? Did you need an example? I added some clarifications to my question, included in this post.

No example needed. Phrasing did not throw me off.

as insaniak said the rules for difficult terrain allow a move through obstructions. (Page 90, Right column, 2nd Graph,1st sentence for those that have not read it).

 insaniak wrote:
The rules fir difficult terrain allow you to move through obstructions.

Well, that solves the problem.

But they don't allow you to stop halfway through the obstruction unless you can physically place the model there.

Tactical_Genius wrote:
But they don't allow you to stop halfway through the obstruction unless you can physically place the model there.

Citation needed.

Where does it say a model needs to move until it is clear of the obstruction unless you can physically place the model there.

A model is allowed to move through an area of DT with a DT test, it is also allowed to stop before its full movement.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
But they don't allow you to stop halfway through the obstruction unless you can physically place the model there.

Citation needed.

Where does it say a model needs to move until it is clear of the obstruction unless you can physically place the model there.

A model is allowed to move through an area of DT with a DT test, it is also allowed to stop before its full movement.

you're only allowed to melt through terrain if its area terrain though, and only "to make moving the models easier" (pg 91)

 DeathReaper wrote:

Tactical_Genius wrote:
But they don't allow you to stop halfway through the obstruction unless you can physically place the model there.

Citation needed.

Where does it say a model needs to move until it is clear of the obstruction unless you can physically place the model there.

A model is allowed to move through an area of DT with a DT test, it is also allowed to stop before its full movement.

Where in the rules does it say you can place a model somewhere it cannot be placed?

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:
you're only allowed to melt through terrain if its area terrain though, and only "to make moving the models easier" (pg 91)

This is incorrect. The second paragraph of the 'Moving through Difficult Terrain' section on page 90 quite explicitly allows you to move through obstructions as you move through the terrain.

And how does that let you hold a hypothetical position/float in mid air?

The same way it lets you put a model halfway through a wall.

Of course, if you don't think that WMS allows that, that means it doesn't.

But from my experience, most players don't have the slightest problem with models being placed halfway through a wall via WMS. The generally accepted view of WMS is that this is exactly the sort of thing that it is intended for.

The skyshield is a unique situation, in that it is a piece of raised terrain that specifically allows models to move somewhere that it doesn't look like they should be able to move. It does this by allowing them to take a difficult terrain test and move through empty air up to the platform.

If you accept that WMS allows models to be 'placed' regardless of whether or not you can physically stand the model there, then this would allow you to stop the model at any point in that movement up to the skyshield via WMS.

If you don't accept that WMS is supposed to allow that, then there's not really anywhere else that this thread can go... It's just going to continue with some people saying 'WMS allows this' and other people saying 'No it doesn't'

 insaniak wrote:
The same way it lets you put a model halfway through a wall.

Of course, if you don't think that WMS allows that, that means it doesn't.

But from my experience, most players don't have the slightest problem with models being placed halfway through a wall via WMS. The generally accepted view of WMS is that this is exactly the sort of thing that it is intended for.

The skyshield is a unique situation, in that it is a piece of raised terrain that specifically allows models to move somewhere that it doesn't look like they should be able to move. It does this by allowing them to take a difficult terrain test and move through empty air up to the platform.

If you accept that WMS allows models to be 'placed' regardless of whether or not you can physically stand the model there, then this would allow you to stop the model at any point in that movement up to the skyshield via WMS.

If you don't accept that WMS is supposed to allow that, then there's not really anywhere else that this thread can go... It's just going to continue with some people saying 'WMS allows this' and other people saying 'No it doesn't'

Except for pg 10, Models cannot, however, voluntarily move off the board. If you are floating over the board, you are not on the board, you are off the board. so please stop with this levitation nonsense.

So you cannot move up ruins either? That involves voluntarily moving them off the board.
There is only one person spouting nonsense.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Where does it say a model needs to move until it is clear of the obstruction unless you can physically place the model there.

It doesn't, but there is no rule that allows you to pretend that a model is somewhere that you can't place it. So if you want to have your model inside the wall you'll need to find a way to get around the laws of physics and have two objects occupying the same space and then put it there. Until then your model is on one side or the other, and if that means you have unused movement distance too bad.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you cannot move up ruins either? That involves voluntarily moving them off the board.
There is only one person spouting nonsense.

I'm glad you can admit it's you. Or do you need more straws to grasp at? They have a a bunch at the dollar store.

More on-topic dicussion, less sniping ~ Thanks

 insaniak wrote:
Consider this a last call for the thread. If the discussion can not be continued without the snark, the thread will be closed.

So... looks like we're done here.