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So I love the whole Tragic Hero vibe the Alpha Legion gets in the HH book Legion, an I really hope that the Alpha Legion are loyalist...I think that makes the game, and the background so much more convoluted and interesting.

What do you guys think?




**edit**. Added new option to poll.

Well, I certainly agree that it makes the background more convoluted.

If you look at Alpha Legion background in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, it describes how they started waging their own campaign and setting their own military objectives without real reference to what others were doing.

Their "degeneration" may take a different form. They may very well still think they are fighting for a goal, but they may be deceiving themselves. They may set military objectives as if they were still fighting some organized campaign, but the real objective may simply be to cause random mayhem. They may have lost their true purpose without knowing it.

For example, they may justify raiding and blowing up Imperial supply depots or capturing interstellar transports as disrupting the Imperium's supply lines, but their true effect on the overall logistical situation may be minor, insignificant or irrelevant (if for example the sector has surplus capacity or is not actively engaged in war). In reality, it may just be piracy under a different name, even if they don't themselves believe it to be such.

Even those in the Alpha Legion that believe themselves loyalists in the long run may succumb to this erosion of purpose. Their attacks might be justified as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor", even though it really just amounts to smash and grab raiding.

With their decentralized structure, it may also be a situation of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Instead of any coherent plan, they might just be individual units acting like any other warband, though in this case they might still be convinced they are serving some higher purpose.

No such Legion exists. Haven't you heard that they have been declared extinct?

I think it's highly likely that they had every intention of remaining loyal to the Emperor, if we go with the version of events that transpired in the Heresy novel Legion. However it's quite clear that there is individual agenda appearing now that could possibly lead to the Alpha Legion fracturing and having it's on internal war, becoming the Chaos Legion we know today.

If this is not the case and there was no inner turmoil and the plan that the Cabal had laid out for them was followed, if loosely with the Alphas own guidelines, then 10,000 years is an awful long time to stick to plan, especially when you are considered to be traitors and are hunted at every avenue. Over a period of time this long the true objectives become blurred and as the original meaning to what you had wanted to accomplish is lost, you form your own methods to survive.

Their might be some loyalist elements still, but personally I think they would have died out a long time a go and their mission lost along with them.

I like the idea that Legion presented but preferred the brief description of their actions in the Index Astartes article.

If we go by "Legion", I'd say they are certainly traitors, but with a hidden agenda that may put them at odds with the rest of Horus' legions.

But also, given that their covert mission may involve



I'd doubt to call them "loyalists" either.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
I think it's highly likely that they had every intention of remaining loyal to the Emperor, if we go with the version of events that transpired in the Heresy novel Legion. However it's quite clear that there is individual agenda appearing now that could possibly lead to the Alpha Legion fracturing and having it's on internal war, becoming the Chaos Legion we know today.

I feel they do/did intend to be loyal. I feel they are loyalist at heart: having "unsentimental pragmatism" in listening to the Cabal in order to fulfil the Emperor's ultimate desire of eradicating Chaos.

I don't think it's quite an individual agenda, rather than conflicting priorities/motivations between the two Primarchs.

Either way, I agree with your second part. An internal war is all but guaranteed (trust me), and - like you - I suspect this leads to them becoming the Alpha Legion we all (don't?) know and (don't?) love today.

 Just Dave wrote:

I don't think it's quite an individual agenda, rather than conflicting priorities/motivations between the two Primarchs.

Isn't that what an individual agenda is, when you go along with your own intention rather than that of a laid out plan set by another, that's what any mean anyway, Omegon isn't following the same train of thought as Alpharius.

Omegon has got something in store for the Legion that doesn't necessarily fit with what Alpharius has in mind, well, that's the impression I have at least.

Why should we trust you Dave, have you inside information or are you an Alpha Legion operative?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

I don't think it's quite an individual agenda, rather than conflicting priorities/motivations between the two Primarchs.

Isn't that what an individual agenda is, when you go along with your own intention rather than that of a laid out plan set by another, that's what any mean anyway, Omegon isn't following the same train of thought as Alpharius.

Omegon has got something in store for the Legion that doesn't necessarily fit with what Alpharius has in mind, well, that's the impression I have at least.

Why should we trust you Dave, have you inside information or are you an Alpha Legion operative?

Are you not an operative?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

I don't think it's quite an individual agenda, rather than conflicting priorities/motivations between the two Primarchs.

Isn't that what an individual agenda is, when you go along with your own intention rather than that of a laid out plan set by another, that's what any mean anyway, Omegon isn't following the same train of thought as Alpharius.

Omegon has got something in store for the Legion that doesn't necessarily fit with what Alpharius has in mind, well, that's the impression I have at least.

Ah, yeah, I agree in that case. Apologies, I interpreted individual agenda as referring to the Alpha Legion as a whole (which would still be somewhat true).

Why should we trust you Dave, have you inside information or are you an Alpha Legion operative?

Well you should trust me anyway! But yeah, more of the former than the latter.

Voldorius was an Alpha Legion daemon prince, correct? So some, if not all AL are corrupted by Chaos. And I think a lot of people may have read Legion incorrectly. It is implied that the AL join Horus, going along with the Cabal's plan... but we still don't know if that was really Alpharius' plan, or just a ruse.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Just Dave wrote:

I don't think it's quite an individual agenda, rather than conflicting priorities/motivations between the two Primarchs.

Isn't that what an individual agenda is, when you go along with your own intention rather than that of a laid out plan set by another, that's what any mean anyway, Omegon isn't following the same train of thought as Alpharius.

Omegon has got something in store for the Legion that doesn't necessarily fit with what Alpharius has in mind, well, that's the impression I have at least.

Why should we trust you Dave, have you inside information or are you an Alpha Legion operative?

Are you not an operative?

Noo :shifty eyes:

 Just Dave wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Why should we trust you Dave, have you inside information or are you an Alpha Legion operative?

Well you should trust me anyway! But yeah, more of the former than the latter.

That's exactly what an Operative would say, quick, summon the Inquisition

 ashrog wrote:
Voldorius was an Alpha Legion daemon prince, correct? So some, if not all AL are corrupted by Chaos. And I think a lot of people may have read Legion incorrectly. It is implied that the AL join Horus, going along with the Cabal's plan... but we still don't know if that was really Alpharius' plan, or just a ruse.

I think throwing a member of the Cabal out of an air lock kinda implies that they want to do things their own way

Oh yeah and Lord 'Sinndriiiiiiiiiii' Bale!

Haven't read the HH books, but there's no possible way they're not traitor marines. Plus, they are the enemy #1 of regular space marines, and for pretty good reasons.

Plus, just look at their tagline in the new codex "The Imperium is riddled with corruption and hatred. We have made sure of it."

Not exactly a pro-imperium kind of stance.

I think that, while they might not think of *themselves* as Chaos Space Marines, they are. I think they are essentially just trying to fulfill their need for mayhem, it's what they do better than all of the other original chapters, and it seems that they were jealous and hateful of most of the other original chapters, so surely they'd want to capitalize on what they do so well, and prove themselves to the other chapters, by all means necessary :3

I have no Idea what the Alpha Legions goals and motivations during the Horus Heresy where. I could read all sources available and would end up just as clueless.


But I'm sure by 40mk they are throughoutly corrupted chaos renegades. 10 millenia of warp influenced cell based guerrilia warfare and terrorist operations will do that to anyone.

Iracundus wrote:
If you look at Alpha Legion background in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex, it describes how they started waging their own campaign and setting their own military objectives without real reference to what others were doing.

Their "degeneration" may take a different form. They may very well still think they are fighting for a goal, but they may be deceiving themselves. They may set military objectives as if they were still fighting some organized campaign, but the real objective may simply be to cause random mayhem. They may have lost their true purpose without knowing it.

For example, they may justify raiding and blowing up Imperial supply depots or capturing interstellar transports as disrupting the Imperium's supply lines, but their true effect on the overall logistical situation may be minor, insignificant or irrelevant (if for example the sector has surplus capacity or is not actively engaged in war). In reality, it may just be piracy under a different name, even if they don't themselves believe it to be such.

Even those in the Alpha Legion that believe themselves loyalists in the long run may succumb to this erosion of purpose. Their attacks might be justified as "serving the long term interests of humanity and the Emperor", even though it really just amounts to smash and grab raiding.

With their decentralized structure, it may also be a situation of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Instead of any coherent plan, they might just be individual units acting like any other warband, though in this case they might still be convinced they are serving some higher purpose.

The 2nd Edition back story was so, sooo much better than the idiotic tripe their fluff has devolved into about a Legion of James Bond Super Spy Marines.

Spoiler for Legion:

 Ailaros wrote:
Haven't read the HH books, but there's no possible way they're not traitor marines. Plus, they are the enemy #1 of regular space marines, and for pretty good reasons.

Plus, just look at their tagline in the new codex "The Imperium is riddled with corruption and hatred. We have made sure of it."

Not exactly a pro-imperium kind of stance.

I agree that they're Chaos Space Marines, but I don't think they originally intended to be [that chaotic]...

A lot of good ideas put forward here. I guess I'd have to agree with what some of you keep saying. We all know Chaos corrupts absolutely, and that the 'Road to hell is paved with good intentions.' So while they may have sided with Horus to help cause the eventual fall of chaos, they obviously failed. And being in such close proximity to so much chaotic influences, they may have knowingly sold their souls to help, but in the end just lost their souls with no gains to show for it.

Well from what I've heard they turned to chaos to fulfil the idea of chaos winning and then turning on itself, so therefore to fully realise their vision they have to make their betrayal real. It's been ten thousand years and chaos corrupts so it wouldn't surprise me if they've forgotten what they originally set out to do, but then again if anything they must have realised this from the start anyway but they thought: "oh well... everything's going to get destroyed anyway including chaos one way or another so it's in our best interest to speed up the inevitable."

Obviously the heresy failed and now the Imperium is in slow decline, the alpha legion have probably forgotten what their goal was by now and are just out to destroy the imperium same as every other, (which technically means they're still doing what they set out to do, but any noble intentions have probably been done away with by now because of chaos's corrupting influence.)

 greg0985 wrote:
convoluted and idiotic.

What do you guys think?

Fixed that for you

lol I know some people like it. I HATE the idea of it.

Im going to stay with the original fluff that they betrayed the Emperor because Horus foudn them first and as such they had more loyalty to him then the Emperor

 greg0985 wrote:
A lot of good ideas put forward here. I guess I'd have to agree with what some of you keep saying. We all know Chaos corrupts absolutely, and that the 'Road to hell is paved with good intentions.' So while they may have sided with Horus to help cause the eventual fall of chaos, they obviously failed. And being in such close proximity to so much chaotic influences, they may have knowingly sold their souls to help, but in the end just lost their souls with no gains to show for it.

Basically how I see it.

I much prefer this over the original/Index Astartes fluff too: the idea of their pragmatic loyalty to the Emperor, despite it's questionable appearance etc. is much better than the idea of them turning because they were closer to Horus or Guilliman picked on their methods, IMHO.

A shame it makes Alpharius look like a simpleton.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A shame it makes Alpharius look like a simpleton.

I don't see how...

Traitor through and through. Even if you buy into the whole joining Horus to wipe out Chaos at the behest of aliens thing, humanity ends up dead and that certainly isn't an act that screams loyalty to the Imperium. We also see in Deliverance Lost that the Alpha Legion grunts have no idea why they're rebelling and are just doing it because Alpharius said so. And of course by M41 we've seen lots of corruption among them.

 Just Dave wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A shame it makes Alpharius look like a simpleton.

I don't see how...

Yeah, I'm with Dave on this one.

I assume you are referring to him following a bunch pf Xenos?

I believe they have been telling a lie for so long that they believe it themselves.

To me it boils down to that no matter their orignal reasons they have now spent such extended time in the warp/had to replace lost marines with warp tainted stock.

Essentially the Alpha legion has been marinated in the pure essence of chaos and the warp for 10,000 years, kinda hard to be anything other than chaos traitors by now.

Delicous warp marinated traitors...

Like every other Legion that has fallen to chaos, I would not be surprised in the slightest if there were to be loyalist elements within the Alpha Legion. These loyalist cells would almost certainly have the capacity to evade being massacred (unlike the poor bastards on Istvaan III) and could still exist in the 41st millenium waging a mostly unseen guerilla war against the traitor elements.

Animus wrote:
We also see in Deliverance Lost that the Alpha Legion grunts have no idea why they're rebelling and are just doing it because Alpharius said so. And of course by M41 we've seen lots of corruption among them.

Why would you tell your sleeper agents the whole truth? If they where captured and interrogated the plan would be ruined.