Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Happyjew wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It does not have to say "unique" for him to be unique. Being named is sufficient, as the BRB says

A hammerhead isnt a suit, so no 5+ precision shot

If what you are saying about him Being A character is correct. Then with ATS he will get Precision shots on a 5 or 6. As ATS states To hit rolls of 6 in the shooting phase are precision shots. Characters make precision shots on a 5 or 6. it says nothing about suits. It can be taken as a vehicle upgrade. as it is listed as a Vehicle VBS on Page 72.

So if you are correct about him being classed as a character because of the Unique rule on Page 110. Then happy days my Hammerhead can now fire precision shots on a 5+.

The ATS available for vehicles, and the one available for non-vehicles have different rules. The one for non-vehicles grants an improved Precision Shot if the model already can make them. The one for vehicles does not.

To clarify: I believe the ATS for the Support Systems specifically states they have to have the ATS already in their wargear profile. How I'm reading it(which I read to be very clear, YMMV) clearly states this. So a Commander cannot take this system, and benefit from a 5+ PS. Is this agreeable? I want to make this as clear as possible, so that I'm not in the wrong if this comes up during a game.

For non-vehicles:
Normally models cannot make Precision Shots.
A character or model with ATS can make Precision Shots on a To Hit roll of 6.
A character with ATS can make Precision Shots on a To Hit roll of 5+.
For vehicles:
Normally models cannot make Precision Shots.
A character or model with (vehicle) ATS can make Precision Shots on a To Hit roll of 6.
A character with (vehicle) ATS can make Precision Shots on a To Hit roll of 6.

Tracking, and agreed. I did miss something, and all is perfectly clear. I'm still somewhat set on 5th Ed rules, and I forgot basic commanders then were treated slightly different. Right on

I still stand by Longstrike doesn't get a 5+, however.

 ruthlessgamer wrote:
Lol, I'll just come check on this post in a few days and find out if its 5+ or 6. I'm lost now with so many yes, no, maybe, Well kinda, only sometimes, well depends...

Once again, YMDC breaks a new player.

 Happyjew wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It does not have to say "unique" for him to be unique. Being named is sufficient, as the BRB says

A hammerhead isnt a suit, so no 5+ precision shot

If what you are saying about him Being A character is correct. Then with ATS he will get Precision shots on a 5 or 6. As ATS states To hit rolls of 6 in the shooting phase are precision shots. Characters make precision shots on a 5 or 6. it says nothing about suits. It can be taken as a vehicle upgrade. as it is listed as a Vehicle VBS on Page 72.

So if you are correct about him being classed as a character because of the Unique rule on Page 110. Then happy days my Hammerhead can now fire precision shots on a 5+.

The ATS available for vehicles, and the one available for non-vehicles have different rules. The one for non-vehicles grants an improved Precision Shot if the model already can make them. The one for vehicles does not.

But according to people on this thread, he is classed as a character meaning that he already does have the 6+ precision shot rule. So by using the ATS would he then gain the 5+ being as he and the tank are classed as 1 Unit.

This definitely needs a FAQ. I'm not convinced either way. (and I also need to re-watch Game of thrones now, Been flicking through the codex and rule book and it seemed as though everything just went to hell at the end there lol)

 cerbrus2 wrote:
But according to people on this thread, he is classed as a character meaning that he already does have the 6+ precision shot rule. So by using the ATS would he then gain the 5+ being as he and the tank are classed as 1 Unit.

This definitely needs a FAQ. I'm not convinced either way. (and I also need to re-watch Game of thrones now, Been flicking through the codex and rule book and it seemed as though everything just went to hell at the end there lol)

Except the vehicle ATS (which is the only one a Hammerhead can take) has different rules than the "infantry" one. I don't have the new Eldar codex yet (shameful I know but I'm broke), so I'll use an example from the old codex.

Farseers can take Spirit Stones making them Mastery Level 2. Vehicles can take Spirit Stones allowing them to treat Crew Stunned results as Crew Shaken. If the vehicle ATS allowed Longstrike's Hammerhead to be Precsion Shot 5+, then a War Walker with Spirit Stones is Mastery Level 2.

 Happyjew wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:
But according to people on this thread, he is classed as a character meaning that he already does have the 6+ precision shot rule. So by using the ATS would he then gain the 5+ being as he and the tank are classed as 1 Unit.

This definitely needs a FAQ. I'm not convinced either way. (and I also need to re-watch Game of thrones now, Been flicking through the codex and rule book and it seemed as though everything just went to hell at the end there lol)

Except the vehicle ATS (which is the only one a Hammerhead can take) has different rules than the "infantry" one. I don't have the new Eldar codex yet (shameful I know but I'm broke), so I'll use an example from the old codex.

Farseers can take Spirit Stones making them Mastery Level 2. Vehicles can take Spirit Stones allowing them to treat Crew Stunned results as Crew Shaken. If the vehicle ATS allowed Longstrike's Hammerhead to be Precsion Shot 5+, then a War Walker with Spirit Stones is Mastery Level 2.

See i agree with you on that, but because of this Longstrike is not classed as a special charector, as other wise they would of taken Longstrike into account in the battle systems rules. but then when you upgrade are you upgrading longstrike or the hammerhead?

This is all because that guy on Beasts of wars said it was a 5+ for Longstrike on the codex Heavy section. so it has everyone questioning it. I will continue to play it as a 6+ though as like you say they rules although titled the same are different.

Does Longstrike have a model profile? If he does, then this would help one or the other side's argument. His Hammerhead has a profile, but those are two different things.

Saying Longstrike is a character because he can only be taken once per army is akin to saying that Signature systems are characters because they can only be taken once per army. SigSys are clearly not characters.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Does Longstrike have a model profile? If he does, then this would help one or the other side's argument. His Hammerhead has a profile, but those are two different things.

Saying Longstrike is a character because he can only be taken once per army is akin to saying that Signature systems are characters because they can only be taken once per army. SigSys are clearly not characters.

No he doesn't and that's why I disagree with him being classed as Special character.

But he is not classed as a signature system his Battle suit is a sig system. of which he is automatically given. for his 45 points.

AFAIK the only "Tank Commander" who is a character is Chronus - who has his own profile. The question is if a character is taken as a vehicle upgrade (Chronus definitely, Pask/Longstrike maybe), does that grant the vehicle Precision Shots? Even then if they did, as I pointed out it is 2 different wargears (albeit identically named) that have similar yet different rules.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Does Longstrike have a model profile? If he does, then this would help one or the other side's argument. His Hammerhead has a profile, but those are two different things.

Saying Longstrike is a character because he can only be taken once per army is akin to saying that Signature systems are characters because they can only be taken once per army. SigSys are clearly not characters.

No he doesn't and that's why I disagree with him being classed as Special character.

But he is not classed as a signature system his Battle suit is a sig system. of which he is automatically given. for his 45 points.

I am lead to believe, due to the lack of a statline, and the way he is written that Longstrike(even though the fluff states he's a 'person') IS the Signature System, because it is not listed as wargear for him. They just needed a reason to give out this special wargear, so the gave it a persona.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Does Longstrike have a model profile? If he does, then this would help one or the other side's argument. His Hammerhead has a profile, but those are two different things.

No he doesn't and that's why I disagree with him being classed as Special character.

So we are in agreement. Good.

Saying Longstrike is a character because he can only be taken once per army is akin to saying that Signature systems are characters because they can only be taken once per army. SigSys are clearly not characters.

But he is not classed as a signature system his Battle suit is a sig system. of which he is automatically given. for his 45 points.

That was an example, I realise Longstrike is not himself a SigSys. My point was: Just because something in a codex can only be taken once (that is, it's unique), does not automatically make it a character. Thus, Longstrike is not a character simply because he is unique, since SigSys are also unique but are not characters. Unique=/=character, is what I'm saying.

 Firehead158 wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Does Longstrike have a model profile? If he does, then this would help one or the other side's argument. His Hammerhead has a profile, but those are two different things.

Saying Longstrike is a character because he can only be taken once per army is akin to saying that Signature systems are characters because they can only be taken once per army. SigSys are clearly not characters.

No he doesn't and that's why I disagree with him being classed as Special character.

But he is not classed as a signature system his Battle suit is a sig system. of which he is automatically given. for his 45 points.

I am lead to believe, due to the lack of a statline, and the way he is written that Longstrike(even though the fluff states he's a 'person') IS the Signature System, because it is not listed as wargear for him. They just needed a reason to give out this special wargear, so the gave it a persona.

But the suit is listed in the signature system. Although we both know only longstrike can take it?

Damn you Vetock.

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 Firehead158 wrote:

 cerbrus2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Does Longstrike have a model profile? If he does, then this would help one or the other side's argument. His Hammerhead has a profile, but those are two different things.

Saying Longstrike is a character because he can only be taken once per army is akin to saying that Signature systems are characters because they can only be taken once per army. SigSys are clearly not characters.

No he doesn't and that's why I disagree with him being classed as Special character.

But he is not classed as a signature system his Battle suit is a sig system. of which he is automatically given. for his 45 points.

I am lead to believe, due to the lack of a statline, and the way he is written that Longstrike(even though the fluff states he's a 'person') IS the Signature System, because it is not listed as wargear for him. They just needed a reason to give out this special wargear, so the gave it a persona.

But the suit is listed in the signature system. Although we both know only longstrike can take it?

Damn you Vetock.

Like I said, he is just a signature system with a persona inside of it. What sounds more appealing, a signature system that gives cool abilities that can be taken once, or this guy who wears this signature system that gives him all these cool abilities and is a veteran of fighting? Regardless of how you view it, we agree on what it does and how it works.

No, it doesnt grant 5+. There is no possible rule allowing it currently, only people making stuff up

It's Precision Shots on a 6 only if the tank has the Advanced Targeting System upgrade that allows Precision Shots. Longstrike is not a character, he's an upgrade.

This is why the Crimson Hunters Exarch, who is also a vehicle upgrade, has an associated special rule that allows him to make Precision Shots.

There's nothing remotely vague about the situation other than people assuming that since he's mentioned in the Special Characters section of the army entries, he must be a Character, though nothing in his rules says as much.

All special characters are Characters.

Q: Do models classified as unique count as characters? (p63)
A: Yes, but not in the case of vehicles (with the exception of
Bjorn the Fell-handed).

However Longstrike is not the vehicle, so the second part does not apply

Character and Unique are specific game terms that are clearly designated in a unit's entry. Longstrike has neither designated.

 Happyjew wrote:
For non-vehicles:
Normally models cannot make Precision Shots.
A character or model with ATS can make Precision Shots on a To Hit roll of 6.
A character with ATS can make Precision Shots on a To Hit roll of 5+.
For vehicles:
Normally models cannot make Precision Shots.
A character or model with (vehicle) ATS can make Precision Shots on a To Hit roll of 6.
A character with (vehicle) ATS can make Precision Shots on a To Hit roll of 6.

Thats what i figured seeing that Longstrike cannot take support systems which seems to be the only way to get 5+. He is just purely a "SigSys" and therefor is nothing more then a 1 time add on to the hammerhead, and only with ATS can he and a hammerhead get Precision Shots of 6.

Perfect. still a little shocked it drew so much of a debate over it. I would of LOVED 5+ but it seemed a little strong to just start instant killing almost anything. Thanks everyone for the posts and the entertaining debate.

It's completely irrelevant whether Longstrike is a character or not when we are arguing whether he gets 5+ precision shots. The VEHICLE version of Advanced Targeting System has different rules than the SUIT version, and does not say anything about upgrading a character from 6 to 5+ for precision. Longstrike's hammerhead only has access to the vehicle armoury, Longstrike himself cannot purchase any upgrades from the suit armoury. Therefore, there is no way for Longstrike to ever get a 5+ precision shot. This may get FAQ'd, but as it stands it is clear.

Now whether he is a character and gets innate precision shots on 6's without needing an ATS, that is debateable either way. Personally, I'd allow it at this stage.

I am with firehead on this, as I have stated it before on how to identify characters: Show me his profile where it states he is a character?

The unique rule being quoted isn't relevant as you are trying to apply it backwards. You do not become unique by having a one-per-army limitation, but have a one-per-army limitation if you are a unique character. Unique characters are special in and of themselves, governed by their own rules, and simply meeting one or two of them does not grant you the 'unique' special rule.

We identify unique characters by a simple things: Their profiles have the (unique) flag just like characters have the (Character) flag.

Also the second part of the debate is unquestionable. Support Systems and Vehicle systems are two different things. Even if we where to grant Longstriker, and Pask by extension, a unique status based on the simple fact they have names then it still would only be 6+. The best you would be able to argue is the equivalent of a free targeting system out of it, causing all sorts of headaches for people like me whom would try to apply all the character rules to this situation but can not simply because he lacks a profile!

What profile would Pask or Longstriker have?

By virtue of being named you are Unique. Thats what the special character rules state.

Or are you saying The Avatar was not a special character until the 6th edition codex landed? Because the real rules disagree with you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
By virtue of being named you are Unique. Thats what the special character rules state.

Or are you saying The Avatar was not a special character until the 6th edition codex landed? Because the real rules disagree with you.

If he was then he is the ONLY special character in the reference section of the BRB. Which makes him even specialer.

Now, amusingly, he isnt that special anymore - you can have 2 per army, if you are using two FOC

Which makes sense, as an avatar ISNT truly unique, just fairly rare...

Regardless of anything else: Longstrike makes Precision Shots only on a 6+ when he makes Precision Shots.

The only real question is if he counts as a Character, as that saves you the points for buying an upgrade with his Hammerhead. The rules for the Vehicle Battle System: Advanced Targeting System are very clear, and Longstrike is not able to purchase any suit Support Systems. So regardless, he can't do a Precision Shot on a 5+.

Because he doesn't have the Unit Type "Character" in his profile, I don't think he counts. In fact, he doesn't have a profile. He is technically just a unique upgrade for a Hammerhead that adds 4 Special Rules to the Hammerhead: Preferred Enemy (Imperial Guard), Tank Hunter, Hammerhead Ace, and Signature System. That is all he does for a Hammerhead.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
By virtue of being named you are Unique. Thats what the special character rules state.

Or are you saying The Avatar was not a special character until the 6th edition codex landed? Because the real rules disagree with you.

Yes, the Avatar was a character before the 6th Ed Codex Eldar, because when you flip to the back of the BRB where they give you all the updated unit types, it listed him as "MC(Ch)". Monstrous Creature-Character.

That little (Ch) notation, or any reference whatsoever to him being a character, is conspicuously missing from Longstrike's profile. Because he doesn't have a profile. Because he's an upgrade.

A better example of Nos' point is The Swarmlord, Old One-Eye, the Doom of Mal'antai...

There are multiple special characters that do not have the (ch) designation but are defined as characters because of page 110.

rigeld2 wrote:
A better example of Nos' point is The Swarmlord, Old One-Eye, the Doom of Mal'antai...

There are multiple special characters that do not have the (ch) designation but are defined as characters because of page 110.

p.110 doesn't actually apply to that, it's the inverse. Specifically, it states that if you're a special character, you're unique. Not that if you're unique, you're a special character.

What Nosferatu is referring to is a line from the FAQ, that does grant Character status to unique models, though that looks rather more like an attempt to bring older books into 6th edition rather than to apply to actual 6th ed codices.

Now, the FAQ he's referencing states that Vehicles are not considered special characters, even if Unique. Longstrike has no profile or classification separate from his tank, so either he's a Vehicle (and thus ineligible) or he's an upgrade (and thus ineligible). It makes a specific exception for Bjorn the Fell-Handed, but not for Longstrike, whose Codex was published after the FAQ was added.

It's possible that GW meant for Longstrike to count as a character. But if they did, they neglected to make any reference to it in the rules, so it's something they'll have to errata.

Actually no, just being named does not make you 'unique' but a rule that you find in the profile section of each unit.

First codex I grabbed was Tau so I will use page 97 for an example of what this rule looks like, as it is quite good. On this page is two named and two 'non-named' HQ choices. In the unit composition section of each profile it will inform you of how many of each model is found in the standard unit. Next to some models is the rule one (unique). Not 1 Darkstrider but in his profile is 1 (unique). Later on there is the Ethereal and they are listed as 1 Ethereal, showing you an example of how it is listed in non-(unique) situations. That is how you know the named character is unique, not because he has a name but because he has a flag on his profile stating he obeys the unique rules.

Even older editions used the same format from some that I have seen, indicating a model was unique with the (unique) flag in the composition section of the rule book. This is not to dissimilar in the way a character is marked with the (Character) flag, often in the very same section of the book. Now some ancient codex might have it formatted differently, however that is irrelevant as the Tau codex is far from 'old' and t hey likely have their own wording to cover the situation.

Longstrider is in the same boat that Pask is, unfortunatly, in that they are upgrades for a tank and nothing more. The confusion is understandable though as they have been given names and backgrounds that clearly talk about the pilot and not the vehicle being driven. In this medium though, a glorified board game, it all boils down to the rules that govern how everything works. Those rules do not always follow what would be considered obvious logic, but they are the rules and we are a forum discussing those very rules so logic has to take a seat somewhere between fluff and crunch.

A one-per-army restriction, and a fancy name, does not mean the model is (unique).

JinxDragon wrote:
Actually no, just being named does not make you 'unique' but a rule that you find in the profile section of each unit.

Page 110 disagrees with you. All special characters are unique.