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Ok then, so would it be about 15pts for a heat blaster and 10 per TDB? And how much to upgrade the Scarabs?

Not sure, someone with access to IA12 is going to have to help us out there with the Scarabs.

For the Heat Blaster, how much does it cost to give a Marine a Melta gun? Should be something close to that.

where can i find this fandex?

You can find it when we're finished, scroll back through skoffs made a draft one in google docs Page 2 or 3. Have a read then read the rest, any contributions you wanna make them please do, but not OP

 skoffs wrote:
Not sure, someone with access to IA12 is going to have to help us out there with the Scarabs.

For the Heat Blaster, how much does it cost to give a Marine a Melta gun? Should be something close to that.

It's a 10 point upgrade for CSM, 5 points for Vanilla and SW.

Thanks Pariah, but who are Vanilla Marines?? I've seen it all over but I never know what it is...
Anyway cheers again. So with FA cleared up almost, it's onto HS, then just fluff and fine tuning

As I said earlier, TDB on Tomb Blades is unfluffy. It makes more sense on Spyders, who still have relentless (unless I'm missing something... MCs have relentless naturally)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
As I said earlier, TDB on Tomb Blades is unfluffy. It makes more sense on Spyders, who still have relentless (unless I'm missing something... MCs have relentless naturally)

As rapid-response units it makes sense to have a weapon capable of destroying any outflanking interloper or tough resistance, but we'll leave it to the rest of those in the thread. And on Spyders almost no-one would use it, FCA is a better use of 10pts because of the short range, and they already have the Particle beamer option

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
Thanks Pariah, but who are Vanilla Marines?? I've seen it all over but I never know what it is...
Anyway cheers again. So with FA cleared up almost, it's onto HS, then just fluff and fine tuning

Vanilla marines are Codex: Space Marine marines. They aren't any particularly flavorful army like Space Wolves or Blood Angels, so they're vanilla.

Tbh I like Vanilla.....
Anyways I'm going off on tangents again. We need to fix up HS.
DS... See NS basically, maybe tweak points as well it seems pricey.
Bring the oldcron monolith back, was terrified of it in my ork days.
Doom Ark... Make the moving blast AP3 is all it needs, maybe large too.
AB... Either a price hike or a worse gun, skoffs covered it well.
Spyders, unsure

quoting myself from earlier in the thread about HS.

Monolith- Particle Whip Strength 9 AP 1, Ordnance. Flux Arcs may always fire at full BS, and each one may fire at a different target than any other weapon on the Monolith. Deepstrike Protection. The most you can benefit is +1 on the vehicle damage chart(IE AP1 will always be downgraded to +1 instead of +2 on the chart) +35 points base.

Spyders- Fine as is

Doom Scythe-Fine

Annihilation Barge-+35 point increase.

Doomsday Ark- Can move and fire the Strength 9 AP1 Large blast. If Stationary, the weapon becomes Strength 10 AP 1 Large blast, Ordinance.

 Sasori wrote:
quoting myself from earlier in the thread about HS.

Monolith- Particle Whip Strength 9 AP 1, Ordnance. Flux Arcs may always fire at full BS, and each one may fire at a different target than any other weapon on the Monolith. Deepstrike Protection. The most you can benefit is +1 on the vehicle damage chart(IE AP1 will always be downgraded to +1 instead of +2 on the chart) +35 points base.

Spyders- Fine as is

Doom Scythe-Fine

Annihilation Barge-+35 point increase.

Doomsday Ark- Can move and fire the Strength 9 AP1 Large blast. If Stationary, the weapon becomes Strength 10 AP 1 Large blast, Ordinance.

Monolith, probably too pricey in that form because at 235pts its near-untakeable below 2000pts 1500 if you're skimping elsewhere
Spyders maybe just need to be able to spawn NEW units of scarabs as well as buff existing ones.
DS seems too expensive
Ark-the moving blast is too powerful its so close to full. Maybe battle cannon (S8 AP3) power
AB-Fair

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
quoting myself from earlier in the thread about HS.

Monolith- Particle Whip Strength 9 AP 1, Ordnance. Flux Arcs may always fire at full BS, and each one may fire at a different target than any other weapon on the Monolith. Deepstrike Protection. The most you can benefit is +1 on the vehicle damage chart(IE AP1 will always be downgraded to +1 instead of +2 on the chart) +35 points base.

Spyders- Fine as is

Doom Scythe-Fine

Annihilation Barge-+35 point increase.

Doomsday Ark- Can move and fire the Strength 9 AP1 Large blast. If Stationary, the weapon becomes Strength 10 AP 1 Large blast, Ordinance.

Monolith, probably too pricey in that form because at 235pts its near-untakeable below 2000pts 1500 if you're skimping elsewhere
Spyders maybe just need to be able to spawn NEW units of scarabs as well as buff existing ones.
DS seems too expensive
Ark-the moving blast is too powerful its so close to full. Maybe battle cannon (S8 AP3) power
AB-Fair

235 points, for increased protection, firepower, and an AV14 hull? You can't expect to give it all those major buffs, and not have it come up in price. I suppose you could throw on IWND, as well, but that seems over the top. With Deepstrike protection, you're able to get board control very easy now, with it's gate, and firepower. I think you may be underestimating the usefulness of it.

Spyders are pretty much point for point, the best MCs in the game. I think buffing them would be a mistake. They are already excellent. The only thing I would add, is additional ranged weapon upgrades.

DS is supposed to be expensive. It still has the best weapon mounted on a flyer in the game. You really can't make it much cheaper.

Ark- It's not that bad. There is plenty of cover out there. I find I rarely even have to move mine is. It's got excellent range, but that's really it. I guess you could give it battle cannon for the moving profile, but I honestly don't think the current profile firing and moving is that bad. Afterall, it's still 60 points more than a Vindicator, and people don't generally take those very much.

Alright I'll concede the monolith scythe and ark. But I find it odd fluff wise on the spyder. It crafts scarabs but can only add to existing units??? Wha-?!? Odd, just odd

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
As I said earlier, TDB on Tomb Blades is unfluffy. It makes more sense on Spyders, who still have relentless (unless I'm missing something... MCs have relentless naturally)

As rapid-response units it makes sense to have a weapon capable of destroying any outflanking interloper or tough resistance, but we'll leave it to the rest of those in the thread. And on Spyders almost no-one would use it, FCA is a better use of 10pts because of the short range, and they already have the Particle beamer option

I'm going to second the unfluffiness of the TDB on Tomb Blades unless there's a fluff change on the weapon (which I think I could do fairly easily). The codex states that the TDB is more like sci-fi super vacuum cleaner (gets rid of unwanted debris, machinery, etc.) and is why Canoptek units have access to it as they're the maintenance crew of Tomb Worlds.

I second that spyders should have the TDB. All canoptek units (except for the scarabs) should have it really; its their job.

Oh as for the Doomsday Ark, I've been toying around with the shooting profile, whatcha guys think?

Stationary: S9 AP1 Range: 72" Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast
Combat Speed: S6 AP4 Range: 36" Type: Heavy 1, Blast

As for the Monolith, I'd say make the Particle Whip the Oldcron Particle whip, S9 AP3 Large Blast with AP1 under the center of the blast. If you want to make it S9 AP1 Large Blast, I'd imagine some tweaking would be necessary on the Doomsday Ark like giving it the current Particle Whip's S8 AP3.

 King Pariah wrote:
Oh as for the Doomsday Ark, I've been toying around with the shooting profile, whatcha guys think?

Stationary: S9 AP1 Range: 72" Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast
Combat Speed: S6 AP4 Range: 36" Type: Heavy 1, Blast

As for the Monolith, I'd say make the Particle Whip the Oldcron Particle whip, S9 AP3 Large Blast with AP1 under the center of the blast. If you want to make it S9 AP1 Large Blast, I'd imagine some tweaking would be necessary on the Doomsday Ark like giving it the current Particle Whip's S8 AP3.

Its funny, the Tau Particle weapons are all AP 4, 3, and 2, yet Necron particle weapons aren't even close, despite necron tech being far superior.

 King Pariah wrote:
Oh as for the Doomsday Ark, I've been toying around with the shooting profile, whatcha guys think?

Stationary: S9 AP1 Range: 72" Type: Heavy 1, Large Blast
Combat Speed: S6 AP4 Range: 36" Type: Heavy 1, Blast

As for the Monolith, I'd say make the Particle Whip the Oldcron Particle whip, S9 AP3 Large Blast with AP1 under the center of the blast. If you want to make it S9 AP1 Large Blast, I'd imagine some tweaking would be necessary on the Doomsday Ark like giving it the current Particle Whip's S8 AP3.

The tweaking was increasing the Monoliths cost, and it being a tottaly diffrent platform than the DD ark. You don't take the Monolith just for the weapon, it's just one of it's perks.

I still feel that there is no reason not have the current Strength 9 AP1 Large blast as it's moved weapon, with a strength 10 AP 1 Ord. being stationary. You could decrease the range on the moved weapon to 24'.

Really, I just want the old monolith back... 235 points of pure invulnerability...


Also, back to elites for a second... New unit idea (really a remake of an old unit with updated fluff and rules)

Canoptek Pariahs 160pts

Canoptek Pariahs are the last defence of a tomb world, aside from re-awakening the slumbering Necrons. They line the many corridors and halls of the tomb complex, looking little more than metal sculptures. When intruders are detected they re-activate to cleanse the tomb of their presence.
Canoptek Pariahs are armed with great Warstaves, a combination between a Gauss weapon and a Warscythe, enabling them to swiftly dispatch their foes in close or from afar.
The third ‘eye’ upon the Pariah’s forehead radiates sense of palpable menace and horror to those around them. This field blots out psychic emanations and infuses those nearby with a sense of their own mortality.
Their necron masters often draft these silent protectors into their armies, using them as bodyguards or as the ultimate defence against witches and sorcerers.
It is said that the form of these silent wardens is based on that of the Necrontyr themselves, during the time of flesh, but only the Necrons themselves or maybe even the books of the Black Library hold the answer, and neither will reveals their secrets easily…

WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 2
I 2
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 3+
Composition: 4 Canoptek Pariahs
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Pariah Warstave, Menace Projection Field
Special Rules: Fearless, Adamantine Will

Options: Up to 6 more Canoptek Pariahs...40pts/ model

Pariah Warstave:
2 profiles
Range: -, Str +2, AP 1, Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed
Range: 24, Str 5, AP 4, Assault 2, Gauss

Menace Projection Field:
Enemy units with a model within 12” count as having leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.
In adition, any psyker (friend or foe!) within 6” of a Canoptek Pariah at the start of their turn must pass a morale check or fall back along with their squad. If the psyker is in combat at the time, he instead is counted as having WS 1.

Guess now we get to argue over whether we want a revival of oldcron pariahs or your canoptek

That;s more of a fluff fight, though. Rules-wise I've tried to keep them as close to the old ones as possible, even going so far as to use the old Gauss Blaster profile. All they have in addition is +1 wound, 2 of their special rules combined as 1 piece of wargear and Adamantine Will.

From page 2, here's my fluff idea for bringing them back

 King Pariah wrote:
For the psy defence, maybe we could bring back the pariah in a manner? Fluff justification would be something along the lines of that they're attempts to reverse the bio transference that ultimately failed. While the transference of the mind and of the Necron in question succeeded, the warp tuned flesh of the many galactic species that the crypteks experimented on had violent reactions to the innate soullessness of the Necrons. As such, they wear a necrodermis shell that acts as life support. And then maybe something about their soullessness brought into the flesh has a pariah like effect in the warp.

yeah, Daemons are pretty much embodiment of souls, so having a Soulless Flesh body would be a crime against the laws of reality, which is the bane of the warp surely.

I do think Pariahs have a place and the rules Matt Kinsley wrote are great but hey'll have to cost a fair bit probably 45-55pts each even without RP cos they're so killy. Fluffwise I really like King Pariahs fluff of how they were created but we can blend the two, use Pariah's for how they came to be and Matt's for their role, strike a compromise?

Yeah, I'm ok with that.

And yeah, 40pts each is probably under costing them...

RE: Tomb Blades carrying TDBs as being unfluffy-
Granted... I guess the other option would be to add the Relentless usr to the others that all Canoptek units already have. (so Fearless, no RP, and Relentless... sounds about right for mindless robots). Then at least Wraiths or Arcanthrites would actually be able to use the TDB... though, it might not be bad on Spyders (not GOOD, just not bad).

RE: Nightscythes-
Make them 110 points. Restrict to only Elites section dedicated transport (can carry other infantry, but the ability to purchase them will be restricted to 3 per FOC, thus preventing spam. With all infantry having access to the Ghost Ark now, rather than just Warriors, transportation shouldn't be a problem).
Additionally, perhaps we should limit the weapon options to just Tesla Cannon (comes with) and Tesla Destructor (can be upgraded for 15 points). Lightning seems like a good fit for a "Blitzkrieg" unit.

RE: other Heavy Support choices-
Annihilation Barge-
-Comes with (twin linked) Gauss Cannons. Can be swapped out for Tesla Cannons (free) or upgraded to Heavy Gauss Cannons (10 points) or Tesla Destructors (15 points). No need for Skyfire, but Interceptor might be a good upgradeable option.
Doomscythe-
-No Tesla Destructor. Comes with twin linked Gauss Cannon (upgraded to Heavy Gauss Cannon for 10 points). Then we can drop the price down to 155 points. Then it would be cheap enough to consider
Spyders-
-Give them access to the TDB... though, not sure they'll need it. Also, remove the Gloom Prism and give it to the Harbinger of Order instead.
Only allowing new Scarabs to be added to existing units is probably an abuse prevention thing, so might be able to stay.
Monolith-
-Guys, if we're trying to BALANCE the codex, we can't have the old Monolith back. It was WAAAY too over powered. "Pure Invulnerability" is quite the opposite of what we're trying for.
Yeah, give it a Battle Cannon, a way to mitigate Deep Strike mishaps, and maybe that's it as far as changes go. Price increase as well, maybe.
Doomsday Ark-
-Agree with Sasori, it's not bad as it is. But S9 AP1 Large Blast (no move)/S6 AP3 Blast (move) wouldn't be a bad consideration. Perhaps a slight price drop, and the option to take Shadow Loom as an upgrade.

RE: "New Pariahs"-
Whoooooaaa, that doesn't strike you as a little too over the top?
it's going to need some major work...

Probably have the Menace Field as an upgrade, so maybe:

Canoptek Pariahs 180pts

WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 2
I 2
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 3+
Composition: 4 Canoptek Pariahs
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Pariah Warstave
Special Rules: Fearless, Adamantine Will

Options:
Up to 6 more Canoptek Pariahs...45pts/ model
The entire unit may have Menace Projection Fields...5pts/ model

Pariah Warstave:
2 profiles
Range: -, Str +2, AP 1, Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed
Range: 24, Str 5, AP 4, Assault 2, Gauss

Menace Projection Field:
Enemy units with a model within 12” count as having leadership 7, unless it would normally be less than that.
In adition, any psyker (friend or foe!) within 6” of a Canoptek Pariah at the start of their turn must pass a morale check or fall back along with their squad. If the psyker is in combat at the time, he instead is counted as having WS 1.


Or maybe just remove adamantine will.


Or, as Mitranekh the Omniscient said, just increase the cost to about 50 pts/ model w/ built-in Menace Projection Fields

Also, V1 was less OP than the old ones for the most part, just saying

The issue is, they're just Lychguard with a Warscythe AND a better version of the Gauss Blaster.
Yeah, they don't have RP, but, come on.
If you're going to make a new Pariah unit, they should be original, not just a mash up of two currently existing units.
From the fluff you wrote, they seem more defense orientated.
Perhaps focus on that. Maybe THESE guys are the ones that have 2+ armor. Without the RP, that would still make them fair.
And a 24" shooting weapon seems a bit much for something that's supposed to stand guard and only come to life when intruders are present. I say give them the TDB as their shooting weapon (with us potentially giving all Canoptek units Relentless now, it would work very well for them, and still be fluffy).
Warscythes I'm torn on. Yes, old Pariahs had them, but... okay, whatever. (they're supposed to be statues after all, right? like suits of armor lining the halls of a fancy manor. I can imagine them standing there with halberd-esqu Warscythes at their sides).

The Menace Projectors, though... something seems too much about them.
Maybe just -1 to LD of all enemy units within 12"?
(-3 for Psykers, as well as some sort of detrimental bonus affect when testing for Perils)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, petitioning to change the name of "Menace Projection Field" to "Gloom Projectors".
Would match with the other anti-psyker equipment we've already got.

I was more or less just updating the old rules... then again those were OP so I suppose...

I still think the Psyker combat thing should exist, could be because that's one of my favorite things about them.

TBD would still be unfluffy if we use my background, as they only activate when enemies appear, while the TBD is used primarily to remove junk as it's a super vacuum.

Maybe a 12" (18"?) Str 5, AP 4 Assault 1 shot?

2 W, 2+ Sv, or just 2+ Sv?


Maybe for the Gloom Projectors:
-1 LD to all enemies withing 12". Psykers (friend or foe!) at within 6" at the start of their must pass a morale check or fall back along with their unit. If locked in combat they are instead WS 1. (As stated, I really like the old Psyker-combat de-buff. I even toned it down to make it less OP!)

Maybe make it WS 2 instead of 1? I'm unsure...