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MSS: change to 2D6 re-roll first successful, points increase

Also just realised that Gloom Projectors don't effect SM psykers (all flavours), going to have to change that...

Updated Pariahs:

Canoptek Pariahs...180pts
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 1
I 2
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 2+

Composition: 4 Canoptek Pariahs
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Pariah Warstave, Sempiternal Weave, Gloom Projector
Special Rules: Fearless, Adamantine Will, Relentless
Options:
May include up to 6 additional Canoptek Pariahs for...45pts/ model

Pariah Warstave:
2 profiles
Range: -, Str User, AP -, Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed, Ignores Armour Saves (Basically the old Warscythe - ignoring ++ saves)
Range: 12", Str 5, AP 5, Assault 1, Gauss

Gloom Projector:
Enemy units with a model within 12” have -1 Ld
In addition, any psykers treat a model armed with a Gloom Projector as having the Fear special rule. Evens models normally immune to fear are effected, such is the power of these devices.

Designer's note: This means models with ATSKNF, Fearless, Daemonic Instability and other, similar, rules must take a fear test and become WS 1 if they fail.

Why does all the good stuff get done when us Brits have to sleep??? *sigh*

Thanks to Iron Dragon for the input, blunt but true and I'm glad to see that changes will be made. I think one of us could do with making v2.1 with all the updates in so as we can judge the effectiveness and balance

2.1 ?!
We haven't even finished compiling 2.0 yet!
:O

Sorry you misunderstand. I mean, compile all the ideas since you put up the first draft and made a 2nd draft of things now that we've just about covered everything, sorry I worded my last post poorly

 King Pariah wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Tau have warlord traits that are all good. Please, yes, let's make sure your army has a chance of getting some gakky trait that doesn't go with the army. The point of randomness is that it balances getting great traits with getting bad ones, which is fething stupid. If you have a table that has only good traits, you're never stuck with something you don't want or need. I'm not saying make them all awesome, just make them all decent. Like instead of a 12" fearless bubble, make it stubborn, etc.

Also, new question: why are overlords and destroyer lords WS and bs 4? Surely their skills were better than that, even though they are slower robots. Obyron proves that they can be better.

Obyron isn't a Lord, he's a bodyguard.

Indeed. Why would a bodyguard be better than an Overlord at anything? Obyron can easily outfight any lord or OL without MSS. I would gladly pay 100 points base for an Overlord with WS and BS 5

 McNinja wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Tau have warlord traits that are all good. Please, yes, let's make sure your army has a chance of getting some gakky trait that doesn't go with the army. The point of randomness is that it balances getting great traits with getting bad ones, which is fething stupid. If you have a table that has only good traits, you're never stuck with something you don't want or need. I'm not saying make them all awesome, just make them all decent. Like instead of a 12" fearless bubble, make it stubborn, etc.

Also, new question: why are overlords and destroyer lords WS and bs 4? Surely their skills were better than that, even though they are slower robots. Obyron proves that they can be better.

Obyron isn't a Lord, he's a bodyguard.

Indeed. Why would a bodyguard be better than an Overlord at anything? Obyron can easily outfight any lord or OL without MSS. I would gladly pay 100 points base for an Overlord with WS and BS 5

Because in reality, it's typically not the nobility who does the fighting, but his men. And of course, wouldn't one of nobility want the best fighters under his pay to protect him?

 King Pariah wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Tau have warlord traits that are all good. Please, yes, let's make sure your army has a chance of getting some gakky trait that doesn't go with the army. The point of randomness is that it balances getting great traits with getting bad ones, which is fething stupid. If you have a table that has only good traits, you're never stuck with something you don't want or need. I'm not saying make them all awesome, just make them all decent. Like instead of a 12" fearless bubble, make it stubborn, etc.

Also, new question: why are overlords and destroyer lords WS and bs 4? Surely their skills were better than that, even though they are slower robots. Obyron proves that they can be better.

Obyron isn't a Lord, he's a bodyguard.

Indeed. Why would a bodyguard be better than an Overlord at anything? Obyron can easily outfight any lord or OL without MSS. I would gladly pay 100 points base for an Overlord with WS and BS 5

Because in reality, it's typically not the nobility who does the fighting, but his men. And of course, wouldn't one of nobility want the best fighters under his pay to protect him?

Hit the nail on the head.
Throughout history, the nobility were usually the tacticians, with their bodyguards being the best fighters under their command.
... really, Zahndrekh and Obyron are the perfect illustration of this.

Then why arent Lychguard WS/BS5 as standard

 IHateNids wrote:
Then why arent Lychguard WS/BS5 as standard

Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.

 McNinja wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Then why arent Lychguard WS/BS5 as standard

Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.

Then let's be unique and special snowflakes!

 King Pariah wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Then why arent Lychguard WS/BS5 as standard

Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.

Then let's be unique and special snowflakes!

As much as I like snowflakes (and I do), I feel like that's another something the Phaeron rule could be good for. for 20 points, adding +1 WS and BS to an overlord.

 McNinja wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Then why arent Lychguard WS/BS5 as standard

Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.

Then let's be unique and special snowflakes!

As much as I like snowflakes (and I do), I feel like that's another something the Phaeron rule could be good for. for 20 points, adding +1 WS and BS to an overlord.

Frankly I'd rather not. I like the idea of leaders as leaders. Not uber warriors or champions.

I didn't mean to be so blunt earlier, but it was just angering to read what some people consider 'balance' and the way it would make an already strong codex into something that would dominate everything, all the time. There'd be zero reason to play anything except for necrons.

Take for example, this idea of Pariahs.

Canoptek Pariahs...180pts
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T 5
W 1
I 2
A 1
Ld 10
Sv 2+

Composition: 4 Canoptek Pariahs
Unit Type: Infantry
Wargear: Pariah Warstave, Sempiternal Weave, Gloom Projector
Special Rules: Fearless, Adamantine Will, Relentless
Options:
May include up to 6 additional Canoptek Pariahs for...45pts/ model

Pariah Warstave:
2 profiles
Range: -, Str User, AP -, Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed, Ignores Armour Saves (Basically the old Warscythe - ignoring ++ saves)
Range: 12", Str 5, AP 5, Assault 1, Gauss

Gloom Projector:
Enemy units with a model within 12” have -1 Ld
In addition, any psykers treat a model armed with a Gloom Projector as having the Fear special rule. Evens models normally immune to fear are effected, such is the power of these devices.



Designer's note: This means models with ATSKNF, Fearless, Daemonic Instability and other, similar, rules must take a fear test and become WS 1 if they fail.

Compare to Deathwing Terminators. For 45 points per model (1 point more than a Deathwing Terminator), you want to have Terminators with 1 more toughness, 1 more strength, 1 more leadership, AP1 weapons that strike on initiative, have built in melta in assault, and also have a gauss shooting attack. They're fearless with ld10, have built-in protection against psykers via adamantine will, and negate the special rules of at least 7 other codexes. (Daemons, C:SM, CSM, BA, DA, SW and Orks).

Do you really think daemons, who have pathetically low leadership, really need another handicap? Your special rule would mean daemons in melee would fail their fear test about 50% of the time and fight at ws1. Marines would fail less often, but you're still negating their unique rules. Lets not even get into what this would do to Orks, who rely on the mob fearless rules to even have a chance in the current meta. It would also render the banner, that CSM are forced to pay for to gain fearless, useless. And it renders it useless basically for free since it's built into this Pariah idea.

This is akin to suggesting that the Eldar (Because they don't like Necrons) should have been given a rule that negates resurrection protocols and we'll be back.

And all of this at 45 points per model.

 King Pariah wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 King Pariah wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Then why arent Lychguard WS/BS5 as standard

Or Triarch Praetorians. Of course, having the Elites be better than the HQs does go against every other army's current set-up. Only Assassins are better than HQs, and they aren't ICs.

Then let's be unique and special snowflakes!

As much as I like snowflakes (and I do), I feel like that's another something the Phaeron rule could be good for. for 20 points, adding +1 WS and BS to an overlord.

Frankly I'd rather not. I like the idea of leaders as leaders. Not uber warriors or champions.

Eh, its just an idea. Also... I wrote up some stuff. Not all of the idea in this thread are included, mainly because I couldn't really keep track of what was going on some of the time. This is mostly my take on certain things, are few adjustments here and there.

The fear part only effects psykers, just saying.

Warstave is still less powerful than a warscythe
They are only I2
They don't have an invulnerable save

But, would removing Sempiternal Weave and/or making the Pariah Warstaves unwieldy make them more fair in your eyes?

The Pariahs are WIP right now but, I agree, OP for the price. Weakening the Sv and the weapon should suffice possibly to AP3 or 4 instead of 1. But in comparison to Deathwing they;
Have no inv.
Cannot DS on Turn 1 (or DS at all)
Cannot split fire or have TL weapons
Have no other options for weapons

You're right they are OP, but Deathwing Termis (and Deathwing Knights, who cost the same) are nearly as bad so perhaps not the best comparison. I'm not disagreeing though, just to be clear

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
The Pariahs are WIP right now but, I agree, OP for the price. Weakening the Sv and the weapon should suffice possibly to AP3 or 4 instead of 1. But in comparison to Deathwing they;
Have no inv.
Cannot DS on Turn 1 (or DS at all)
Cannot split fire or have TL weapons
Have no other options for weapons

You're right they are OP, but Deathwing Termis (and Deathwing Knights, who cost the same) are nearly as bad so perhaps not the best comparison. I'm not disagreeing though, just to be clear

I tried to pick a 45 point model with a similar save to compare with. It helps that the Deathwing some some unique abilities, so you can compare it to the proposed rule. No, Pariah doesn't have the invuln, and they are Init2, but.. their weapons are str5 and effectively AP1. So even striking at I2, they still go before other AP2 weapons (Which for the vast majority are unwieldy) and will almost always wound when they hit.

Tbh when I was pricing them, I was comparing them to chainfist termis, but even then my pricing was a bit off (not by much, I believe, though)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Tbh when I was pricing them, I was comparing them to chainfist termis, but even then my pricing was a bit off (not by much, I believe, though)

Yes, it lacks the strength bonus of the chainfist, but strikes at I2 and is str5 AP1. That's a pretty big advantage. And termies have to pay extra for a chainfist, too.

I take your point, well said. So Pariahs need weakening... Ok no biggie.
Has anyone thought on fluff btw? We can change it if we like or keep it as is and just write fluff for the new units

Perhaps this comes from the Bias of an Eldar player, but it would seem to me that the Necron weaknesses are, currently, lack of psychic defenses and lack of easy access to extreme long range weaponry. I don't believe this should change. And here's why:

Necrons have surprising maneuverability for how durable they are as a whole. Your leadership stat alone is quite a big deal, especially since RP makes it so a number of times you would normally take a LD test, you avoid it. Perfect example: Wraiths. 12" movement, ignores all terrain, even impassible, 2W and a 3+ invul save. There needs to be a chink in the armor of a codex, and outranging Necrons is one of those. Psychic abilities is another.

It's my opinion that there should be definite weaknesses in a codex, and they should be obvious. More importantly, they should not be corrected with additional units, rules, or things specifically hand crafted to counter them. This is where tactics and strategy come into play. A game should not be won in the list building phase. No game should ever have a participant that isn't at some kind of a disadvantage somewhere.

deathmagiks wrote:
Perhaps this comes from the Bias of an Eldar player, but it would seem to me that the Necron weaknesses are, currently, lack of psychic defenses and lack of easy access to extreme long range weaponry. I don't believe this should change. And here's why:

Necrons have surprising maneuverability for how durable they are as a whole. Your leadership stat alone is quite a big deal, especially since RP makes it so a number of times you would normally take a LD test, you avoid it. Perfect example: Wraiths. 12" movement, ignores all terrain, even impassible, 2W and a 3+ invul save. There needs to be a chink in the armor of a codex, and outranging Necrons is one of those. Psychic abilities is another.

It's my opinion that there should be definite weaknesses in a codex, and they should be obvious. More importantly, they should not be corrected with additional units, rules, or things specifically hand crafted to counter them. This is where tactics and strategy come into play. A game should not be won in the list building phase. No game should ever have a participant that isn't at some kind of a disadvantage somewhere.

Hear, hear.
I do agree that we have to keep reigns on long range weaponry and psychic defense, but it shouldn't come as a complete lack. After all, both are already present in the current codex, just in a very limited capacity/come as a premium.

Right now our psychic defense comes on the back of Spyders... this makes no sense what so ever. I had hoped by giving the Gloom Prism to a Harbinger that might have made it a bit more functional without having to introduce any more anti psyker additions to the dex. But the clamor for Pariahs was extremely strong, so we thought we'd take a look at some options... but you're right. By making an uber strong "omg, I'm gonna spam the hell out of these!" anti psyker unit, we will be negating the weakness our army is supposed to come with to balance our strengths.

In regards to your "perfect example", we're trying to figure out how to balance Wraiths without fundamentally changing what they are (so movement and rules remain unchanged enough that we don't just craft them into something else).
Right now the ideas were to A) keep them as they are, but raise the price, or B) remove the Phase Shifter (their inv save), but keep it as an upgrade option (at a premium price, however). Any other suggestions?

I was thinking, maybe -1 W from the wraiths and change phase shifters to a 4++ save, maybe?

Also 3+ Sv for Pariahs + AP 3 weapon still at 45pts? Or more expensive/cheaper?

eh, I'd say keep the 3++ on them.

If we changed the phase shifter then it has to get cheaper for OL and Lords to take cos 45pts for a 4++ is too much. I think we could drop the anti-psychic from the Pariahs and just leave it to that Harbinger of Order. That way we can fix them to have AP3 and 3+ Sv to keep them on a par with LG and TP on price and ability. Just keep Relentless and Fearless, maaybe drop anti-psych from the gloom projector and leave it there?

Leave the phase shifter, just up the points for the wraith. They are taken because they're so cost effective - 10 points cheaper than the phase shifter they have. I would increase the points by either 5 or 10 points. If we increase by 5 to 40, a full unit is 240, which is a bit morethan ssensible, since you take 3 whip coils minimum anyway.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Tbh when I was pricing them, I was comparing them to chainfist termis, but even then my pricing was a bit off (not by much, I believe, though)

Something you should all remember, is 2 units, if they have the exact same stats, across codices are not comparable. The unit could be the only of its type in the codex and could be highly valuable to that codex's army if its the only unit like a terminator in that army that's an elite but expensive group, and likewise it would be worth less if it's in a codex with lots of tanky options or similar alternatives.

Again, I stress, the stats between 2 units even if the exact same still have to take into account what else the codex has. In an already powerful codex like the necrons (which already needs some of its units to have revised points costs as it is; many increased and a few decreased) giving them a clearly powerful Elite unit slot (where the other elites are meh) wouldn't be a good idea even if they were the exact same as terminators.

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
That way we can fix them [Pariahs] to have AP3 and 3+ Sv to keep them on a par with LG and TP on price and ability. Just keep Relentless and Fearless, maaybe drop anti-psych from the gloom projector and leave it there?

but then... why would anyone take Lychguard or Praetorians?

Also, guys, Wraiths are one of the most common units people single out when trying to illustrate how unfair the Necron codex is.
A five point increase is NOT enough to balance them. Anything less than 45 point per model at the current iteration would be unrealistic.
However, at 45 points per model, that is very cost prohibitive (280 for a full squad, one with Whip Coils).
THAT is why I suggested dropping the Phase Shifter as comes-with wargear and making it a purchasable unit upgrade: so the option to run them cheap still exists.
You can either have a normal 3+ Wraith squad for 30 points per model (fast, cheap, and choppy, but weak. Like an assault version of Tomb Blades), or for 15 points more you can give them 3++ (tankable but expensive).

 skoffs wrote:

 Mitranekh the Omniscient wrote:
That way we can fix them [Pariahs] to have AP3 and 3+ Sv to keep them on a par with LG and TP on price and ability. Just keep Relentless and Fearless, maaybe drop anti-psych from the gloom projector and leave it there?

but then... why would anyone take Lychguard or Praetorians?

Also, guys, Wraiths are one of the most common units people single out when trying to illustrate how unfair the Necron codex is.
A five point increase is NOT enough to balance them. Anything less than 45 point per model at the current iteration would be unrealistic.
However, at 45 points per model, that is very cost prohibitive (280 for a full squad, one with Whip Coils).
THAT is why I suggested dropping the Phase Shifter as comes-with wargear and making it a purchasable unit upgrade: so the option to run them cheap still exists.
You can either have a normal 3+ Wraith squad for 30 points per model (fast, cheap, and choppy, but weak. Like an assault version of Tomb Blades), or for 15 points more you can give them 3++ (tankable but expensive).

Frankly, I'd stick with dropping them to 1 wound. But that just may be me reminiscing about the glass cannon feel of the old cron Wraiths.

One wound wouldn't be unreasonable, if it meant reducing the price, but the models are a little huge to single wound, I think...