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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

"Teensy bit" random? I guess vendetta is "teensy bit" better than rippers.

Gotta love them strawman arguements.

. . .

That was not a strawman argument.

It was hyperbolic rhetoric.

Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

"created" characters? that's what the unique designation is for. being able to cherry-pick powers would be too powerful and we all know that if they had to be bought as upgrades there would be a great gnashing of teeth and wailing that Iron Arm was a 50 power or whatever. Random powers is fine.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
being able to cherry-pick powers would be too powerful

Only if you're incompetent and fail to balance the options properly. Random tables are only needed if you suck at balance and can't avoid having overpowered ones.

 Peregrine wrote:

That's why you give up on the idea of a universal set of psychic powers and give each psychic unit a list of powers with their own point costs. Then C:SM librarian might pay 10 points for the cover save power while a Tyranid whatever pays 50 points. You know, like how they did it in 5th.

Thank you for saving me the trouble of answering.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

Also a good point. I didn't even consider this from a fluffy standpoint.

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

Honestly, it is bad for pretty much any named character as well! Eldrad doesn't know what he can do before going into battle, Ahriman doesn't get it either. Fateweaver runs around with a thousand spells you have to roll for, etc.

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.

Have no sympathy for people who turn up to a game and feel that a slight change in the breeze just screwed their entire strategy over. Napoleon had a pretty relevant quote.

I don't know having iron arm on your MC and not having it is a rather big difference and if you take a biker HQ for marines or eldar and you dont get invisibility , then you are more or less screwed as you said it.
Psychic powers on a lot of models are not bonus things that are cool when they work , but it is ok if they dont . Not every psyker is Coteaz.
This isn't even a high risk or high gain situation .

You can pick powers. They're called primaris powers. Using DA that gives me...4 powers to choose from if I don't feel like rolling a few die before the game.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.

Have no sympathy for people who turn up to a game and feel that a slight change in the breeze just screwed their entire strategy over. Napoleon had a pretty relevant quote.

I made an Assault Squad Sergeant with a round Wolf Guard Terminator Storm Shield and bolt pistol after watching either Captain America or The Avengers. I forget which.

More useless than a single lasgun against 100 Space Marines, but the model was cool as heck. Even if I did use a Sanguinary Guard jump pack on him, complete with angelic wings. And some Grey Knight parts too - particularly the front chest armor and the head. I think the head was actually a GK Terminator of some sort.

Grey Knight kits are an awesome source of cool power swords and relic blades and power axes. Each kit comes with 10 one-handed power swords, 5 left, 5 right. Use the two-handed swords as relic blades, and the glaives as halberds - since GW insists on calling them halberds anyways - which fall under the power axe category. Even the power armor bits are useable as artificer armor because they look so ornate and stand out against normal Space Marines.

Mix them with some choice Sanguinary Guard arms with boltguns, and you've got some cool as hell Honor Guard.

I had a crazy thought a while back. An Honor Guard model, using a one-handed power sword in his right arm, with his left arm being from a Sanguinary Guard with wrist-mounted boltgun, and his left hand holds a bolt pistol.

I forget what the thread is about sometimes.

I have no opinion on psychic powers. I didn't use them much in 5th, haven't been taking them in 6th so far (but I've played like 2-3 games at most since 6th came out, mostly due to losing interest/having hopes crushed by fellow forum-goers at one point in 5th).

Experiment 626 wrote:
Because it would be pretty much impossible to properly cost the psychic powers we now have...

Look at Ironarm as an example. On a CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby, it's probably only worth about 15-20pts at the absolute most due to it being on a 2-wound MEQ. But even 20pts would be game-breaking & heinously too cheap on say a GUO or Hive Tyrant, so you'd likely need to up it to at least 35, if not outright calling it 40-50pts.
But now it's 100% overcosted and useless on that 2-wound CSM Sorcerer or Space Marine Libby...

Same problem with spells like Invisibility which are good on horde armies like Daemons, but would if kept cheap to make them worthwhile would then be OP on high armour save armies like say a Termiewing.
Meanwhile, the Witchfire powers would need to be rather costly for those with high BS, but then become too expensive on lower BS psykers.

See the problem? You can't fairly cost powers when you have vastly different types of models with access to the same psychic lores.

This.

Experiment 626 wrote:All that needs doing to properly balance the system is to bring a proper 'Psychic Phase' with casting/dispelling pools and have things work ala Fantasy Magic Phase.

Not this. Merging Fantasy with 40k isn't necessary - because if you want that level of magik, you can play Fantasy.

The move to increased reliance on psychic powers generally was, imo, a big step backwards in 6th. I appreciate that in 5th some armies had psychic powers - these generally made sense from a fluff and tactical perspective (eg Eldar, Nids, Chaos & Daemons) and made the armies unique. For Marines generally powers were far more restricted plus generally less useful and the focus was therefore on selecting the army and not on the psychic abilities. In a game, they were exceptions, not the rule. (For me the most common ones encountered were Gate, JOTWW and Living lightning - course JOTWW was not ideal as I'm a Cron player ).

In 6th, they are everywhere. I started GK, and immediately discovered that for 55 points I could twin link a full GKSS strike squad, plus get some wounds to keep the unit alive. So, 2 Psycannons, 8 Stormbolters with Psybolt, twin linked. Coteaz for 100 points with Divination IS gamebreaking - Not only can I TL the strike squad, I can usually position it to IBEY, PLUS I might get misfortune or forwarning/foreboding.

The limited options in 5th which were army specific made a lot more sense and meant that GW could, through FAQs etc "tweak" old codexes to make them more competitive. If Iron Arm was a Tyranid only power, that would make sense. But, yesterday I encountered Mephiston with Iron Arm.

Given all the comments in this thread about the difficulty of pricing etc, get rid of all the generic Psychic powers - bring back 5th ed where you pick from your codex!

MandalorynOranj wrote: *snip*
I think the tables were a mistake in the first place. Armies were a lot more unique when everyone had different powers, instead of every psyker in the galaxy knowing how to do the exact same things. It makes the game blander, in addition to obviously making it less strategic.

+1

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.

Have no sympathy for people who turn up to a game and feel that a slight change in the breeze just screwed their entire strategy over. Napoleon had a pretty relevant quote.

Yeah don't give up but my question is... imagine if your power weapons were rolled on to find out what you get? And the power sword was the "primaris" weapon. Roll a one and you might get a power fist roll a 6 and you might get a power fist that hits on initiative! I'd rather they kept the old system of having psyker tables in the codeces for each army. Let them be more original that is for certain! It could be balanced.... but it would admittedly be a pain. Yet look what we have now? We have expensive units that can literally pay 75 points to not even get the weapon they want.

The random table is a terrible idea. Because it promotes a lazy system where GW can throw in terrible and broken spells into one table without having to worry about internal balance. Yet even then they fethed up. Divination is great, Biomancy is good, Telepathy is a good back-up choice, and then you get into pyromancy and the sorts where you say meh and then walk away. What was so bad about all armies getting their own unique spells? Heck, out of the armies they have released, the only armies that haven't gotten their own personal psyker table of their own have been Tau (whom don't have psykers) and Dark Angels.

The randomisation works. Like other posters have said, it's a lot more balanced with randomization and adds for more variation and tactical flexibility. If you could choose, everyone would pick powers X, Y and Z, and build lists around them. With the current system, you have to make use with what you've got, which tests your skill as a general a lot more. The people who rely on getting a certain power are doomed to fail when they don't.

 The Shadow wrote:
it's a lot more balanced with randomization

Don't take this as a proven argument.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.

My stance on it is it's fine, just don't tell me about it for half an hour.

 n0t_u wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.

My stance on it is it's fine, just don't tell me about it for half an hour.

You mean I haven't told you about my ultra - super - mega - ultra fire caste commander that is totally not Farsight?

Just wait till I see you next time my friend......

OT: I honestly don't get the move to random powers, it is much harder to balance, especially since the better charts are just "stack up on those blessing "

 n0t_u wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

Judging by what most people use to pass as a "fluffy home-brew character" I'm pretty happy to see them move away from it.

My stance on it is it's fine, just don't tell me about it for half an hour.

I never mentioned home-brew rules at all...

Oh, I thought it was about mentioning the made up background.

There's only so long I can listen to how something like a small Tau cadre allied with a SoB detatchment can take on the Black Templars and steal a ship in order to hunt down some traitors somewhere who did something to some kroot or whatever. Which is why the random SoB is with these Tau.

 n0t_u wrote:
Oh, I thought it was about mentioning the made up background. D

There's a difference between using homebrew rules and creating a background for your characters and unit.

That's what I was objecting to.

Ah k, well one has to be mentioned to avoid confusion at any rate. Just with creating the background I agree it'd make more sense to be able to pick your powers; it'll help represent them better perhaps.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Random powers is obnoxious and stupid for those of us that want our models to represent our created characters instead of merely generics

"created" characters? that's what the unique designation is for. being able to cherry-pick powers would be too powerful and we all know that if they had to be bought as upgrades there would be a great gnashing of teeth and wailing that Iron Arm was a 50 power or whatever. Random powers is fine.

If it was that on top of the printed cost of a psyker in the new books, then yeah that could be bad. But look at it this way: in the current books the cost of a mastery level is about 25 points. That makes that the average cost of a power rolled from a table. Some are higher, some are lower. So take a Farseer at 100 points, ML3. Strip out the mastery levels and you've got a 25 point model who has to then pay for three, or let's say up to three, powers. You could load up on the biggest and best powers and have an incredibly powerful HQ who makes your army much better, but costs a hell of a lot. Or you can take cheaper and more moderately powerful powers, and spend less points on it making it less of a powerhouse.

The Shadow wrote:The randomisation works. Like other posters have said, it's a lot more balanced with randomization and adds for more variation and tactical flexibility. If you could choose, everyone would pick powers X, Y and Z, and build lists around them. With the current system, you have to make use with what you've got, which tests your skill as a general a lot more. The people who rely on getting a certain power are doomed to fail when they don't.

How is it more balanced than just paying points appropriate to what you get? I hate to bring it up when it's come up so much in this thread, but if you think it is more balanced would you be in favor of buying a "gun" for your HQ? you roll randomly, it could be a laspistol, it could be a multimelta, maybe the primaris is a storm bolter. Or roll for what aura effect a Sanguinary Priest has? You could get FnP, or you could get Adamantium Will. Random! Why is it "balanced" to not be able to build your army the way you want just because you are using psykers?

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
How is it more balanced than just paying points appropriate to what you get? I hate to bring it up when it's come up so much in this thread, but if you think it is more balanced would you be in favor of buying a "gun" for your HQ? you roll randomly, it could be a laspistol, it could be a multimelta, maybe the primaris is a storm bolter. Or roll for what aura effect a Sanguinary Priest has? You could get FnP, or you could get Adamantium Will. Random! Why is it "balanced" to not be able to build your army the way you want just because you are using psykers?

Because people seem to think that two wrongs make it right. You know, "when I walk the dog, we have both 3 legs on average".

You have a a game when your 100 point psyker gets a incredible power that should make him cost at least 150 total.
Then you have another game where the same psyker gets shooting power putting him at a estimated power of marine with a lacannon.

You can look at that situation and say: well, he was once very useful, once way overpriced so in the end you have a balanced psyker.
You could also look at it that you had two games and in each and every game you got something that was NOT costed appropriately.

If you would gather statistics from all over the world and count how psykers do you'd probably get some sort of balanced outcome.
For a single game, trying new strategy, wanting to play specific build, single tournament etc it does not work.

One crappy and one awesome psyker does not equal two balanced ones.

As for more variety: yes, we have so much variety that biomancy and divination are on the pedestal while telepathy weeps alone in the dark corner. The rest might as well not exist. First association with a psyker = twin-linking. If you are a beatstick, hope for Iron Arm.

Psychic power Tables are one of the best things about 6th ed.

Fluff isn't an argument against it, warp energies are fickle, what powers you can draw on change on the tides of the warp.

Honestly, as a dedicated Tau player, I never even bothered to read the psychic powers chapter. I don't really mind the tables and my regular opponents seem to be reasonably positive about them, but for a more competitive audience I can see them causing problems.

Maybe give a list of base powers in the main rulebook like there is now, then give each codex separate points costs for accessing those basic powers. Maybe have some codexes unable to access certain powers or give them unique powers, have different power options available in the same codex representing the strength of the psyker? It seems more reasonable.

Also I think having a dedicated "psychic phase" and giving the powers a larger place in the game might be a good idea. They already kind of break the game sequence since you use some of them at the same time as reserves. I'm not sure where that phase would go in the turn structure though. Admittedly it would be a phase where I sit there and get beat on every single turn with zero chance of fighting back, but that's how I'd like to think most opponents feel about my shooting phase.

Giving Psychic powers their own phase would turn a bad outcome into a terrible one.

I got into 40k not because of some models who can magically make themselves tougher/stronger/harder to hit/incredibly fast, or others who can magically make other units weaker/stronger/more accurate/set on fire etc. If I'd wanted that I would have gone to Fantasy.

I have no problems with certain races or even spesh marines having some powers. But keep them in the relevant codex and cost them so they don't break the game.

Better still, remove them from everyone but Chaos, eldar, DE and Nids - at least they make sense from a fluff perspective.

my 2c (again!)

Random powers work until your shooting army wastes all its rolls on assault based buffs trying to get one thing.

Then your opponent rolls great and get iron arm on a bunch of Nid MCs. You can spend every turn shooting all your weapons at one model and you won't do but one to two wounds.

It's hardly balanced.

 Macok wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
How is it more balanced than just paying points appropriate to what you get? I hate to bring it up when it's come up so much in this thread, but if you think it is more balanced would you be in favor of buying a "gun" for your HQ? you roll randomly, it could be a laspistol, it could be a multimelta, maybe the primaris is a storm bolter. Or roll for what aura effect a Sanguinary Priest has? You could get FnP, or you could get Adamantium Will. Random! Why is it "balanced" to not be able to build your army the way you want just because you are using psykers?

Because people seem to think that two wrongs make it right. You know, "when I walk the dog, we have both 3 legs on average".

You have a a game when your 100 point psyker gets a incredible power that should make him cost at least 150 total.
Then you have another game where the same psyker gets shooting power putting him at a estimated power of marine with a lacannon.

You can look at that situation and say: well, he was once very useful, once way overpriced so in the end you have a balanced psyker.
You could also look at it that you had two games and in each and every game you got something that was NOT costed appropriately.

If you would gather statistics from all over the world and count how psykers do you'd probably get some sort of balanced outcome.
For a single game, trying new strategy, wanting to play specific build, single tournament etc it does not work.

One crappy and one awesome psyker does not equal two balanced ones.

As for more variety: yes, we have so much variety that biomancy and divination are on the pedestal while telepathy weeps alone in the dark corner. The rest might as well not exist. First association with a psyker = twin-linking. If you are a beatstick, hope for Iron Arm.

^^Absolutely correct!! A statistical average over a large range of data (dozens or more games) doesn't guarantee balance when only one of those pieces of data (a game) is used. The only balance you have is everybody is equally screwed by a knuckle-headed approach to game design. As said before, warlord traits being random is also stupid and no different from weapons being random, and heck why not UNITS being random as well? HOW CINEMATIC!

Sorry, but randomization favors less capable players. It's like backgammon; the world's best player can easily lose to an average player in any single game due to the basic strategies and the dice rolled. Play 50 games or more and the better player will come out on top. This is EXACTLY the result GW wants in WH40K. Whether you think it's a good thing or not is certainly your own opinion, but personally I'd rather know that my decisions, good or bad, are having the greatest impact on a battle - not some roll on a table. And please don't bore me with the complaint if we wanted chess or go we'd play those games without a random element. Or that since WH40K is a dice game everything is random anyway so there is no problem. Or maybe the oft spewed BS that being dealt a lousy hand is the real test of generalship. Instead it's a cop out because you have a built in excuse why you lost, and gee, maybe next time you can roll better on a random table and be just like Hannibal.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:


Fluff isn't an argument against it, warp energies are fickle, what powers you can draw on change on the tides of the warp.

That might be a reasonable thing to say about the ignorant mon-keigh and other inferior species, but the eldar are masters of the warp and the psyker arts, if you think eldrad doesn't know what spells he will have in 5 minute you are ridiculous.

So yeah non tzeentch marines, ig orks etc should have random powers, but eldar should have had a different mechanism for their psyker powers that distinguished them from the other armies, no ability to take rulebook powers and all special powers they got to choose from would have been the correct and fluffy way of making eldar psykers for the codex. Instead they dropped the ball and decided eldar psykers are as ignorant and feeble minded as humans which is laughable.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:
Fluff isn't an argument against it, warp energies are fickle, what powers you can draw on change on the tides of the warp.

No, the warp being fickle is already represented in-game by having to test to manifest your powers and risking Perils.

Psykers have powers they can manifest at will, they don't just hope that they are getting the right power for the job every battle. With the sole exception of the Ork Weirdboys.

I challenge anyone here to provide evidence that Imperial sanctioned psykers (Librarians, Primaris psykers, etc) have no control over what powers they use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkCron wrote:

Better still, remove them from everyone but Chaos, eldar, DE and Nids - at least they make sense from a fluff perspective.

my 2c (again!)

As per the written fluff, this does not make sense from any perspective.