Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Is it me or are they just a bit small for the price you pay for them. I saw a leman russ the other day and was disappointed by how small it is (insert 'thats what she said' joke here).

Now some of you might argue that space marines are bigger so they get bigger tanks. I am not talking about the superheavy tanks for IG like the Baneblade or others btw.

Just my thought on them.

Well, the Leman Russ is supposed to be bigger than any modern battle tank we have today (by it's supposed dimensions, I believe they were in a FW book). And even then, tanks really aren't as big as people would think they are (I mean, there are massive tanks like the Leopard 2 and T-90 but a lot of modern designs are "small" and effective compared to the "my tank is bigger than your tank" thinking of WW2).

But yes, in a economical and model sense the LR does seems tiny. Personally, I think it's because the infantry are too big for their proportions but that's just me XD

A Leman Russ is larger than a Predator. The chimera chassis (upon which most IG non-LRBT tanks are based) are arguably larger than a Rhino chassis (which most Marine tanks are on)... The only thing larger is Land Raiders and those are supposed to be little fortresses of death carrying 8 Terminators.

And points of money-wise, they're pretty great deals. Do you mean they're small by real-life standards or in-game?

I think size wise for game play they are fine. Rhinos, predators and land raiders were all smaller before, but the leman russ has remained the same size.

Plus, leman russes are glorified armored cars. They exist to pack the most heavy weapons onto the smallest amount of space and materiel.

They're rather unlike modern battle tanks that exist to bring a single weapon to a place with extreme speed, precision, and protection (along with having a lot of other gizmos).

The LRBT is fine, the problem is that the plastic IG infantry are completely out of scale. If you compare the tank to true 28mm scale infantry (DKoK, for example) without bases adding to their height the size isn't too bad. And of course the Mars Alpha version with the extended hull looks even better.

 Peregrine wrote:
The LRBT is fine, the problem is that the plastic IG infantry are completely out of scale. If you compare the tank to true 28mm scale infantry (DKoK, for example) without bases adding to their height the size isn't too bad. And of course the Mars Alpha version with the extended hull looks even better.

I have noticed the DKoK are seriously smaller than the Guardsmen models, thought I never realized that it's because they are better proportioned.

 washout77 wrote:
Well, the Leman Russ is supposed to be bigger than any modern battle tank we have today (by it's supposed dimensions, I believe they were in a FW book). And even then, tanks really aren't as big as people would think they are (I mean, there are massive tanks like the Leopard 2 and T-90 but a lot of modern designs are "small" and effective compared to the "my tank is bigger than your tank" thinking of WW2).

That's not strictly true, modern tanks are almost all monstrous, the only exception being the t-90 (and the chinese knock-off). The US MBT M1-A2 Abrams tank is 32 feet long 12 feet wide and a full 8 feet tall, the British Challenger mk2 and German Leopard mk2 are all nearly the same dimensions. Each of them dwarf the tanks of WWII, even the Tiger 2 wasn't as large as the current breed.

That said, we need to remember these models are exaggerated in their proportions, and not really to scale. Even still the Russ seems a bit small to be the main staple of the guard line up, compared to a rhino it seems about fine... but they really do need a non-superheavy tank that's the size of the Land Raider.

I dunno, I think they're reasonably large models. For the price I can understand why you'd want them to be bigger, but hey, they used to be cheaper! I'm at the point where I honestly don't mind smaller models, since it means I can actually store them in things.

 bibblles wrote:
That's not strictly true, modern tanks are almost all monstrous, the only exception being the t-90 (and the chinese knock-off). The US MBT M1-A2 Abrams tank is 32 feet long 12 feet wide and a full 8 feet tall, the British Challenger mk2 and German Leopard mk2 are all nearly the same dimensions. Each of them dwarf the tanks of WWII, even the Tiger 2 wasn't as large as the current breed.

Interestingly if you scale up from a true-scale 28mm guardsman (6' tall) the LRBT is taller than the M1, the same width, and about 2/3 as long. So the M1 would have very different proportions, but the overall size is about the same.

but they really do need a non-superheavy tank that's the size of the Land Raider.

Not really. Malcadors are about the size of a Land Raider and superheavy, so there isn't much room to add another tank (or any point to doing so).

 Peregrine wrote:
The LRBT is fine, the problem is that the plastic IG infantry are completely out of scale. If you compare the tank to true 28mm scale infantry (DKoK, for example) without bases adding to their height the size isn't too bad. And of course the Mars Alpha version with the extended hull looks even better.

QFT

From some very unsophisticated eyeball measurements using the Tau tank commander that comes with a Devilfish next to a Fire warrior I would say that the Tau vehicles at least are about 60-75% "actual size" (unless the Tau breed their tank crews for dwarfism, which would explain the scale come to think of it).

At some point they started making the infantry models bigger apparently, and didn't increase the vehicle size.

 Elector wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
The LRBT is fine, the problem is that the plastic IG infantry are completely out of scale. If you compare the tank to true 28mm scale infantry (DKoK, for example) without bases adding to their height the size isn't too bad. And of course the Mars Alpha version with the extended hull looks even better.

I have noticed the DKoK are seriously smaller than the Guardsmen models, thought I never realized that it's because they are better proportioned.

Both the DKoK and the Elysians are smaller and are actually proportioned compared to the current other plastic guard kits.

The last thing 40k needs is more landraider sized models. That thing is too big for the game as it is. The super heavies are just ridiculous when playing on a standard table (which they were obviously not designed for).

I'm not sure how op got the impression that the lrbt is smaller than most marine tanks. It's larger than the predator, only the landraider stands out as bigger. We're also not paying for models based on the amount of raw materials put in. That really would be a silly business model. The raw materials are incredibly cheap, and cost practically nothing compared to all the other overheads GW have. However, much of the pricing seems fairly random. I can't figure out how they price certain things other than possibly on the frequency of each purchase. With special characters tending to be far more expensive due to the low number that people need.

10 marines, no matter what edition, what scale, or whatever, have never been able to realistically fit inside a Rhino. An upgunned Imperial Land Raider however, in spite of it's increased armament, can take more terminators than a standard CSM LR. GW has always been a bit screwy with scales. To me the predator is the pure representation of Astartes Armour, a support force of efficient and proven vehicles for when the post-human supermen can't quite do it themselves. A super-heavy Astartes tank just doesn't fit with the feel of the Space Marines as an elite force IMO.

Edit: Aforementioned 'feel' of Astartes as elites has been eroded over the editions, now there's chapters who have more than 1000 marines and all sorts of other shenanigans that aside from removing some of the mystery of the Astartes, also reduced their image as the elite force in the 41st Millennium.

MarsNZ wrote:
10 marines, no matter what edition, what scale, or whatever, have never been able to realistically fit inside a Rhino.

Wrong. I've seen it done. Years ago someone modelled ten marines in the old Rhino. Alas, I have not been able to find the picture again.


40K tanks are actually pretty big, even if we assume the scale is correct. Rhino for example would be about seven metres long.

 Peregrine wrote:

 bibblles wrote:
That's not strictly true, modern tanks are almost all monstrous, the only exception being the t-90 (and the chinese knock-off). The US MBT M1-A2 Abrams tank is 32 feet long 12 feet wide and a full 8 feet tall, the British Challenger mk2 and German Leopard mk2 are all nearly the same dimensions. Each of them dwarf the tanks of WWII, even the Tiger 2 wasn't as large as the current breed.

Interestingly if you scale up from a true-scale 28mm guardsman (6' tall) the LRBT is taller than the M1, the same width, and about 2/3 as long. So the M1 would have very different proportions, but the overall size is about the same.

but they really do need a non-superheavy tank that's the size of the Land Raider.

Not really. Malcadors are about the size of a Land Raider and superheavy, so there isn't much room to add another tank (or any point to doing so).

Again we're forgetting that 40k infantry are not to correct scale, IG figs are the same size as marines (who would be much MUCH bigger), so scaling it up proportionally to that the LRBT is a very tall, wide, and stubby tank. Which would probably make it top heavy and unstable, it would also have very bad cross country handling characteristics compared to a short and long tank like the Abrams MBT.

And the malcador is a superheavy, I was thinking with my original post that they need a bigger, more cross country capable tank, maybe something like the LRBT but less guns and more maneuverability or something. IDK just some thoughts.

So you want an M1 Abrams basically.

problem is that wouldn't remotely fit the aesthetic of the game whatsoever. The best you can probably hope for is o up gunned chimera like the devil dog or hellhound but with a conventional cannon.

I don't care if it's at all like a real tank, I'm just sick of all the imperial things being tall stubby and having the tracks off of that tank from world war 1.

That's the aesthetic GW decided on for much of the IG: World War One. It fits with the fluff of innumerable soldiers marching to their death at the hands of rather incompetent and distanced commanders.

 bibblles wrote:
I don't care if it's at all like a real tank, I'm just sick of all the imperial things being tall stubby and having the tracks off of that tank from world war 1.

That's like saying that you'd wish dwarfs were not short and have beards.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So you want an M1 Abrams basically.

problem is that wouldn't remotely fit the aesthetic of the game whatsoever. The best you can probably hope for is o up gunned chimera like the devil dog or hellhound but with a conventional cannon.

So a Chimedon!

There's some Epic-scale goodness for you.

I honestly wouldn't mind a sort-of Chimera vehicle kitted for long-range anti-tank. Lightly armoured (next to a Russ), decent mobility, single high-powered anti-tank gun.

It'd make sense in the fluff, but in the game, tanks aren't exactly a going concern, and it'd be redundant next to the Vanquisher.

 bibblles wrote:
I don't care if it's at all like a real tank, I'm just sick of all the imperial things being tall stubby and having the tracks off of that tank from world war 1.

Well, the world war 1 aesthetic was kinda the point. That's their shtick.

 bibblles wrote:
Again we're forgetting that 40k infantry are not to correct scale, IG figs are the same size as marines (who would be much MUCH bigger), so scaling it up proportionally to that the LRBT is a very tall, wide, and stubby tank. Which would probably make it top heavy and unstable, it would also have very bad cross country handling characteristics compared to a short and long tank like the Abrams MBT.

I know, that's why I said true scale guardsmen. The FW IG models are a lot closer to true 28mm scale than the plastic ones, and if you scale up the dimensions from a DKoK model you find that the LRBT is roughly the same size.

And obviously it's a terrible design, with no suspension, a gun that's way too big for its hull, etc. But it's a reasonable size for a tank.

And the malcador is a superheavy, I was thinking with my original post that they need a bigger, more cross country capable tank, maybe something like the LRBT but less guns and more maneuverability or something.

And, like I said, that's the Malcador. If you go any bigger than a LRBT you have a Malcador. It may be a superheavy rules-wise but it's only a bit bigger than a LRBT.

Bah, this is the best imperial tank.



Compensating?

No, not at all!

 Brother SRM wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So you want an M1 Abrams basically.

problem is that wouldn't remotely fit the aesthetic of the game whatsoever. The best you can probably hope for is o up gunned chimera like the devil dog or hellhound but with a conventional cannon.

So a Chimedon!

There's some Epic-scale goodness for you.

The first time I saw that picture I thought it was a rock!

Rules, Model Scale and Fluff are all mutually exclusive in 40K and no one should ever try to combine them at anything more than a superficial level, purely to make the game more fun. You could play a game of 40K with only bases and cardboard boxes and it would still play exactly the same, it would just be incredibly dull and confusing (from the perspective of wysiwyg). Even setting "scale" aside I dont think anyone could look at a leman russ as portrayed by the miniature and expect it to be a capable fighting vehicle in any way.

 Peregrine wrote:

 bibblles wrote:
Again we're forgetting that 40k infantry are not to correct scale, IG figs are the same size as marines (who would be much MUCH bigger), so scaling it up proportionally to that the LRBT is a very tall, wide, and stubby tank. Which would probably make it top heavy and unstable, it would also have very bad cross country handling characteristics compared to a short and long tank like the Abrams MBT.

I know, that's why I said true scale guardsmen. The FW IG models are a lot closer to true 28mm scale than the plastic ones, and if you scale up the dimensions from a DKoK model you find that the LRBT is roughly the same size.

And obviously it's a terrible design, with no suspension, a gun that's way too big for its hull, etc. But it's a reasonable size for a tank.

I'm just saying, it'd be nice to see some WWII stuff mixed in. I think there's an interesting avenue for a more maneuverable brother to the LRBT.