Are Space Marine equivalent mechanized lists still viable?

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**Mr.Omega**

I've played many games with SME (excluding BA and GK, I've tried all of them) mechanized lists and I've found over the course of this edition that my Rhinos and Razorbacks are showing to be increasing pointless. I'm not suggesting Marines footslog. That would be a terrible idea.

1) Half of them are usually dead turn 2 and on occasion all of them.

2) The squads in them pack too little firepower to accomplish the job, even if they manage to get to where I need them to go.

3) Unless you get first turn and very lucky, you're conceding the first blood SVP to your opponent every time. Purge the alien becomes an exercise in frustration.

4) I'm often stuck between firing them (if Razorbacks), flatting them out and popping smoke.

5) You're absolutely bummed if you're playing H&A on a 6x4 board.

6) Having squads de-meched turn 1 is painful.

One tactic I've frequently been trying is using an 18'' cruise+flat out move across the board turn 1 towards their objectives. Generally, in all the games I've tried it, it hasn't worked.

Often I'm running Devastator equivalents with missiles/lascannons to pop tanks, and maybe a single 200 pt+ unit like Terminators or Black Knights. I never field Land Raiders, for the record.

I've been wondering if maybe I should just modernize and switch to Drop Pods. At least that way you're getting to the mid board with out hassle and you always fire first.

So Dakka, I'm stumped. Is it truly worth it taking Rhino/Razorback squads anymore?

**minigun762**

I still see value in the cheap basic Rhino.

Even one turn in the transport should give you two turns worth of movement on the table which should get you close enough to shoot something.

**Kingsley**

At 35 points, the basic Rhino is still striking me as a bargain. 40 point Heavy Bolter Razorbacks also seem quite strong in those books that have access to them. You do have to know how to play carefully in order to prevent giving First Blood to your opponent, but in my experience this is typically less of an issue than one might think.

**dementedwombat**

Let me put it this way, if my transports cost 40 points my side of the board would look like a parking lot, to block line of sight for my more important units if nothing else.

Let's see, if you're just going completely crazy you could have 8 or 9 transports on the table and a few more vehicles as heavy support. I wouldn't want to see that giant line of metal boxes charging across the board at me.

**Mr.Omega**

I'd like to keep this discussion alive as thus far noone has actually answered any of my points and has only regurgitated the fact they're cheap.

**minigun762**

The cheap aspect is one of the most important parts.

If you didn't have them, you'd be able to add the equivalent of 2-3 bodies per squad which in most situations is less durable and useful than the transport.

Expect the cheap tin cans to die quickly but they should be providing that initial movement boost as well as protecting the occupants from incoming fire.

Maybe you're expectations are too high. They can't perform at the same level as transports 2x or 3x their price.

**Martel732**

Yes, AV 11 is vulnerable. And meqs in general are now overcosted in 6th. Maybe drop pods are the way to go for now. I'd wait and see what the vanilla codex looks like though.

I don't ever worry about first blood when I build my lists. I score far more VPs ignoring that point and sticking to my battle plan. Yeah, sometimes I lose by that point, but I think its still better than footslogging.

**minigun762**

As Chaos, I'd love to have Drop Pods!

It's either walking or riding in tin cans.

**DAaddict**

Mr.Omega wrote:
I've played many games with SME (excluding BA and GK, I've tried all of them) mechanized lists and I've found over the course of this edition that my Rhinos and Razorbacks are showing to be increasing pointless. I'm not suggesting Marines footslog. That would be a terrible idea.

1) Half of them are usually dead turn 2 and on occasion all of them.
Half of them dead or half of my troops dead. Kill all the boxes you want and besides I will clutter the battlefield with extra cover.

2) The squads in them pack too little firepower to accomplish the job, even if they manage to get to where I need them to go.

One squad is always crap. My old vulkan list had 4 rhinos and 3 vindicators plus other vehicles. Pick your poison. You can kill some but not all.

3) Unless you get first turn and very lucky, you're conceding the first blood SVP to your opponent every time. Purge the alien becomes an exercise in frustration.
Hopefully the transports help me get linebreaker. Its a wash.

4) I'm often stuck between firing them (if Razorbacks), flatting them out and popping smoke.
Razorbacks are for fire lines. Rhinos are transports. I don't see the problem...

5) You're absolutely bummed if you're playing H&A on a 6x4 board.
SEE BELOW

6) Having squads de-meched turn 1 is painful.
You haven't played orks or dark eldar... Getting un meched is normal...

One tactic I've frequently been trying is using an 18'' cruise+flat out move across the board turn 1 towards their objectives. Generally, in all the games I've tried it, it hasn't worked.

Often I'm running Devastator equivalents with missiles/lascannons to pop tanks, and maybe a single 200 pt+ unit like Terminators or Black Knights. I never field Land Raiders, for the record.

I've been wondering if maybe I should just modernize and switch to Drop Pods. At least that way you're getting to the mid board with out hassle and you always fire first.

So Dakka, I'm stumped. Is it truly worth it taking Rhino/Razorback squads anymore?

In ones and twos, no transport except a landraider is worth it. The advantage of mass rhinos or razorbacks is the ability to reduce fields of fire. They may die but they rarely explode but it often turns into a permanent wall. Getting the 1 or 2 turn bonus to your movement can be a big deal.

**Solosam47**

I'd say a mech list is still viable, things blow up. It's part of the game. You can have two tacs walk up the field and take open fire or you can have 4 razorbacks running up the field while dishing fire. Oh no they got first blood, then take line breaker or slay the warlord. You can get them where they need to go faster and be able to play objectives much more efficient then hoofin it.

**Mr.Omega**

Mr.Omega wrote:
I've got a tournament coming up pretty soon, after a bit of brain storming I came up with this:

HQ

Librarian in Terminator Armour, Mastery Level 2 (130 pts)

Command Squad with 3x Melta Gun, Drop Pod with Locator Beacon (165 pts)

(Note that there are no restrictions on having a power armoured Command Squad with a Terminator armoured HQ choice, it specifies "any HQ choice" and doesn't mention any restriction on the army list page.)

Elites

Deathwing Knights x5 (235)

Troops

10 man Tactical Squad with plasma gun, Rhino dedicated transport (190)

10 man Tactical Squad with plasma gun, Rhino dedicated transport (190)

10 man Tactical Squad with plasma gun, Rhino dedicated transport (190)

10 man Tactical Squad with plasma gun, Rhino dedicated transport (190)

Fast Attack

Ravenwing Support Squadron

2x Land Speeder with dual heavy flamers (120 pts)

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad with 4x Missile Launchers, 3x Flakk Missiles (160 pts)

Devastator Squad with 4x Missile Launchers, 4x Flakk Missiles (170 pts)

Fortifications:

Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun (100 pts)

1850 total

Reposting my list from the army lists section, what do you guys think?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=edit&post_id=5725994&start=0

**AlmightyWalrus**

First Blood isn't a wash with linebreaker, though. Barring extremely uncommon circumstances, only one player gets First Blood, whereas both players often get Linebreaker.

**Martel732**

I simply don't worry about first blood if I'm running mech.

**Spartan089**

Depend what codex you are running. I personally find mech BA good even in this edition. 6-9 razorbacks with 3 fast Vindicators is still pretty scary to the unprepared.

**JGrand**

So Dakka, I'm stumped. Is it truly worth it taking Rhino/Razorback squads anymore?

For the most part, no. They aren't in tournament lists for a reason. Cron Air is a better version of Razorspam, and is a hard counter. Helldrakes love clumped up models as well. Keep them on the shelf.