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At least for Space Wolves. As far as weapon platforms go, they're expensive and fragile. Either their weapons are terribly ineffective, (85 points for an autocannon and 2 heavy bolters?) Or else absurdly expensive. (160 something points for 3 lascannons, one of them twin linked.) So... am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything. More recent marine codices have given significant discounts in predator costs, and Space Wolves missed out.

Waaaghpower wrote:
At least for Space Wolves. As far as weapon platforms go, they're expensive and fragile. Either their weapons are terribly ineffective, (85 points for an autocannon and 2 heavy bolters?) Or else absurdly expensive. (160 something points for 3 lascannons, one of them twin linked.) So... am I missing something?

Yes. The best Predator configuration right now is the autocannon turret and sponson lascannons, which costs 120 points and is very effective-- so effective, in fact, that I would nearly always take this tank over Long Fangs.

Chaos and DA get a 20 point discount on the Las Predator, making it viable.

 Kingsley wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
At least for Space Wolves. As far as weapon platforms go, they're expensive and fragile. Either their weapons are terribly ineffective, (85 points for an autocannon and 2 heavy bolters?) Or else absurdly expensive. (160 something points for 3 lascannons, one of them twin linked.) So... am I missing something?

Yes. The best Predator configuration right now is the autocannon turret and sponson lascannons, which costs 120 points and is very effective-- so effective, in fact, that I would nearly always take this tank over Long Fangs.

Care to explain why it's so awesome? I'm not seeing how two incongruent weapons function to create an effective firing solution.

 Kingsley wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
At least for Space Wolves. As far as weapon platforms go, they're expensive and fragile. Either their weapons are terribly ineffective, (85 points for an autocannon and 2 heavy bolters?) Or else absurdly expensive. (160 something points for 3 lascannons, one of them twin linked.) So... am I missing something?

Yes. The best Predator configuration right now is the autocannon turret and sponson lascannons, which costs 120 points and is very effective-- so effective, in fact, that I would nearly always take this tank over Long Fangs.

I respectfully disagree. Long fangs pack an excellent utility, namely being able to split fire and put out more shots point per point.

Long Fangs also die if a helldrake looks at them funny

Long fangs, the way most people use them, suck at heavy support because MLs suck ass in 6th edition. Now not only does AV 13 and AV 14 laugh at you, the Riptide ROFLs all the way to the bank.

Also, autocannons and lascannons aren't incongruent. They both are high strength 48" guns. When the updates for marines drop, I'm sure you'll see tri las pred all over the place.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
At least for Space Wolves. As far as weapon platforms go, they're expensive and fragile. Either their weapons are terribly ineffective, (85 points for an autocannon and 2 heavy bolters?) Or else absurdly expensive. (160 something points for 3 lascannons, one of them twin linked.) So... am I missing something?

Yes. The best Predator configuration right now is the autocannon turret and sponson lascannons, which costs 120 points and is very effective-- so effective, in fact, that I would nearly always take this tank over Long Fangs.

Care to explain why it's so awesome? I'm not seeing how two incongruent weapons function to create an effective firing solution.

The key is that-- as Martel732 points out-- Missile Launchers are quite weak in 6th edition. In 5th edition, Long Fangs were usually (though not always) a better choice.. For ~120 points, , Predators get 4 shots of average strength 8, just like Long Fangs. However, against vehicles the strength 9 shots allow you to more credibly threaten AV13/14 targets. Further, two of the Predator's shots are AP2, which provides a substantial advantage against vehicles in 6th edition (and did nothing in 5th edition). Further, the Predator is much more effective against 2+ save units-- most notably Riptides and Broadsides, which are very common at present and quite strong.

Finally, the Predator's front AV13 is much more resilient than the 5 T4 3+ bodies you get for equivalent points, especially in the modern environment, where Flyers can easily reach backfield units with shooting on the second or third turn. The powerful Baleflamer Heldrake, in particular, is not very effective at all against Predators, but devastating against Long Fangs.

Long Fangs do have their advantages-- most notably they can easily take a 5th shot, and Split Fire comes in handy sometimes. However, I think that Predators are a more balanced and effective choice in the 6th edition environment.

Missile launchers kill the same types of targets as autocannons, but only about half as fast. Single shot heavy weapons are also an awful way to engage targets with 3+ armor. Basically, for all the ballyhoo about Long Fangs, the CSM Havocs are better because they get autocannons.

anonymou5 wrote:Long Fangs also die if a helldrake looks at them funny

This. A predator will always out-dakka dead longfangs.

anonymou5 wrote:
Long Fangs also die if a helldrake looks at them funny

This.

When I'm playing CSM, I will erase one long fang squad a turn. They will get on 1-2 turns of shooting tops.

The meta is shifting towards killing infantry. In the 5th ed meta a pred was worthless krak and melta fodder. In 6th ed it laughes off hell turkeys, DE poison, Salvo 4 bolters, and bladestorm. s7 tesla can only glance av13. It's easy to gain cover saves. IG are packing plasma instead of melta. The list goes on and on...point is preds now go against the meta.

Corollax wrote:
No, you're not missing anything. More recent marine codices have given significant discounts in predator costs, and Space Wolves missed out.

didn't Dark Angels make them more expensive?

SM vanilla get 2 LC and an AC for 120 points, one of the most efficient 5th ed uses of a heavy support slot.

^ yeah, but I think he's referring to the tri-las which has been reduced.

Adding my opinion to the consensus. Good luck running long fangs in any sort of competitive environment. They're devoured by heldrakes, neutered by FMCs and as Martel said: they have a single shot weapon that relies on RoF for success. Hardly a winning combo.
I love my SW predator, in 5th it never saw the table, but now it makes a regular appearance.

Space Wolf players kinda piss me off, because they have the most amazing troops and then the take then lists and spam MLs. HUH?

Old habits die hard. When a unit goes from God mode to below par, it's quite easy to just forget. Then you get hit by a heldrake and realise that maybe they were never worth it in the first place.

I have always struggled with the decision to take a Pred or not in my lists. At my FLGS we have 3 players who play Wolves regularly so I play more Codex Marines to help out the balance. I am now in the opinion that for me the only Pred that I use is the tri las and only then when I have run out of models with las cannons for my squads. AV13 with three las shots on twin linked at BS4 can be imposing until you run out of enemy vehicles to kill then that tri las pred pricetag laughs at you. I am now starting to run infantry and bikes with no vehicles.

Kingsley wrote:Yes. The best Predator configuration right now is the autocannon turret and sponson lascannons

That's always been the best Predator configuration, even way back in 3E. Annhilator's have always just been too expensive. The only army I've ever taking an Annhilator in was my Space Wolves, and only because of how hard it is to get Lascannons on the table. Long Fangs were grossly overpriced in 3E, to the point Annhilators were cheaper. In fact, I think a moderately priced Long Fang pack was approaching Land Raider prices, though I'd have to whip out the old Codex to double check that.

Griddlelol wrote:Old habits die hard. When a unit goes from God mode to below par, it's quite easy to just forget. Then you get hit by a heldrake and realise that maybe they were never worth it in the first place.

Tis the only reason to consider a Predator IMO. Long Fangs are very inexpensive and there are advantages and disadvantages to Infantry based heavy weapons. Since the unit is small, they're rather fragile. At the same time though, sometimes you need a lot of strength eight+ weapons firing at a single target. But given how often S7/S9 will work out okay...

On the plus side this gets rid of cookie cutter builds.

I was running a game on Vassal and had two Lascannon predators, with las sponsons. These things sucked.

I really felt they should have done a lot more for the points I spent in them. Only getting 3 shots each. Sure the shots are powerful, but there just werent enough of them.

I think the autocannon turret would actually be a lot better for me. Or perhaps I am just use to running a volume of fire army (orks!)

I could also see vindicators being pretty fantastic, but then again we look at a high price and a huge target for the enemy.

Tri-las Predators are very good in Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Chaos Space Marines, where they have a substantial cost reduction. However, they're just too expensive in other Space Marine Codexes. They are IMO better than the auto/las Predator when paying the new cost (140, IIRC), but just not worth it at the old price of 165.

Predators are also very good in Black Templars, where they can get POTMS as an upgrade.

Does the OP understand that not every Marine codex works in the same way? sometimes points can be used to sway the selection of certain units.

rahxephon wrote:^ yeah, but I think he's referring to the tri-las which has been reduced.

Oh, I'm sorry. So I'm still meant to pay more points for a single extra S9 shot over 2 S7AP4 shots?

The only way the predator could be better is if it had skyfire and/or got autocannon sponsons for a price between heavy bolters and lascannons.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Predators are also very good in Black Templars, where they can get POTMS as an upgrade.

Does the OP understand that not every Marine codex works in the same way? sometimes points can be used to sway the selection of certain units.

Very true.

and I doubt it.

As a BA player I have been tying to work a list that includes 2 predator annuilators. The over priced part sucks, but when paired with reduced cost razorbacks (due to assault troops, not takin JP), the aim is LC saturation. Haven't tried it out yet, but I can get a LR, 4 razorbacks (wih upgraded gun) and 2 predators in around 1850. That could give up to 8 twin linked LC shots and 6 regular LC shots. Not a bad alpha on mostly fast vehicals. I am trying to work the troops out and what to put in the LR.

anonymou5 wrote:
Long Fangs also die if a helldrake looks at them funny

This argument is so annoying at this point. Yes the Helldrake is good but not everyplayer runs one, in fact depending on the meta of your local area there could be alot or even none at all. Yes its nasty but guess what you cant build an army and be scared to take somthing over a single unit that MAY be there.

rahxephon wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Predators are also very good in Black Templars, where they can get POTMS as an upgrade.

Does the OP understand that not every Marine codex works in the same way? sometimes points can be used to sway the selection of certain units.

Very true.

and I doubt it.

I said 'For Space Wolves.' Did you not read my actual post.

 gmaleron wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:
Long Fangs also die if a helldrake looks at them funny

This argument is so annoying at this point. Yes the Helldrake is good but not everyplayer runs one, in fact depending on the meta of your local area there could be alot or even none at all. Yes its nasty but guess what you cant build an army and be scared to take somthing over a single unit that MAY be there.

No. The assumption on this forum is that, unless specified otherwise, people want advice in a competitive environment. That's obviously a vague statement, but I take that to mean "can win a regional tournament with a good general" I personally have never been to a tournament with over 20 people that did not have multiple armies with Heldrakes in them. The Heldrake was, and is, a dominant force at tournaments. If you want to win 40k, you must take the Heldrake into account. Unfortunately, that means Long Fangs are effectively done.

I'm not theorizing here. I'm not math hammering, or guessing. I play Wolves. I play them in tournies. Long Fangs are no longer the right choice.

Waaaghpower wrote:

rahxephon wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Predators are also very good in Black Templars, where they can get POTMS as an upgrade.

Does the OP understand that not every Marine codex works in the same way? sometimes points can be used to sway the selection of certain units.

Very true.

and I doubt it.

I said 'For Space Wolves.' Did you not read my actual post.

Yes I did. Before major anti-infantry threats like the Heldrake, Long Fangs were the nastiest heavy weapons squad available. Now a predator is going to be more resilient.

Some units in certain codexes are priced to "steer" choices.

"Because Helldrake"

Is not an acceptable arguement. It seems to be the standard rebuttal of netlisters on dakka. 90% of the games you play will be against an army without a drake. Against those, the Longfangs are likely to be better. ML spam is one thing Space Wolves do well, use it.

If you're building a list to take on CSM, but all means, buy 3 Predators. Watch them get vector striked and Hades Autocannoned to oblivion.