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Because helldrake is a perfectly valid argument, not because everybody has a helldrake, but because of what the helldrake represents - the ability to kill marines in cover.

In the case of the imperial guard, their "helldrake" is a colossus. In the case of space marines, their "helldrake" is a land raider redeemer. In the case of tau, their "helldrake" is markerlights combined with broadsides. And those are just the most obvious ones.

The plain and simple fact is that 5 space marines are going to be a LOT easier to kill than an AV13 vehicle. That durability loss is a real disadvantage, regardless of how many helldrakes the person in question happens to actually be facing off against at any given time.

"Because heldrake" is absolutely acceptable for competitive lists. You are more likely to encounter the helldrake in a competitive setting.

If the CSM bring hades autocannon on the heldrakes, my BA are already jumping for joy. Let them waste their time with non-scoring predators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AV 13 has extra utility for vehicles with long range weaponry because AV 13 is surprisingly hard to engage at long range.

90% of games is an interesting stat. I wonder who's ass that was pulled out of.
A more realistic stat is that in 100% of tournaments, I will come across at least one, and more often than not more than one, heldrake. So I'm supposed to take long fangs then roll over in one game per tournament? And that's ignoring all the other ap3 ignores cover weapons out there. Vector strikes, collosi, marker light riptides, wraith guard with d-scythes...

No thanks. I'll take the safe option and bring av13.

You're all right. I did pull that out of my ass. 90% is a made up figure.

I just get a bit sick of every damn marine player bitching about the damn helldrake. Doesn't bother me none, i'd prefer to play against an army with a predator instead of longfangs.

Very one keeps saying "because of helldrakes". What if he is allying in guard for vendetta support? Would that negate the need to worry so much about hell drakes?

In a recent tourny I was able to shoot down the only drake I faced before he even got to shoot his bale flamer.

The "because helldrake" excuse (as a blanket excuse) could be used in this settin to never field anyone in power armor again.

Also, what if the SW player takes an aegis with Icarus. I have seen an Icarus pop a flyer with interceptor fire just one too many times.

The odds of a single icarus shot taking down a helldrake is very poor. On top of that, the tournament build is called TRIPLE helldrake. Not single helldrake. Not double helldrake.

I don't care what your local meta is. I don't care about gentlemanly agreements. I don't care about your anecdotal evidence.

I've educated myself about the tournament scene, and as it stands right now, triple helldrake is one of the popular builds. Because helldrakes are that damn good and versatile.

And if you haven't noticed, loyalist marine lists that don't have a bunch of IG blob buddies aren't doing real well. If we're goign to talk about what is *really* good, loyalist meqs are not good (grey hunters are better, though), and the helldrake is a big reason why. (Being a grey hunter doesn't help here.)

Well, frankly, if my opponent brings 3 helldrakes against Space Wolves, I'm screwed anyways. I can only take 1 AA gun regardless of what I bring. So... yeah, kinda screwed in this instance. Though, what's to stop me from putting a 2+ save Librarian at the front of the squad? I was going to add him anyways and that gives a certain amount of Baleflamer protection.
Still, like I said: 3 Helldrakes = Death no matter what, it doesn't matter what I bring.

Belly wrote:
"Because Helldrake"

Is not an acceptable arguement. It seems to be the standard rebuttal of netlisters on dakka. 90% of the games you play will be against an army without a drake. Against those, the Longfangs are likely to be better. ML spam is one thing Space Wolves do well, use it.

If you're building a list to take on CSM, but all means, buy 3 Predators. Watch them get vector striked and Hades Autocannoned to oblivion.

Preds can take vector strikes and hades ac better than fangs can take bale flame and vector strike.

It's not just about the hell turkey.

Crons: Preds can take s5/s7 tesla hits, fangs can't.
DA: Salvo 4 doesn't mean much to preds and it melts fangs.
DE:Tend to spam venoms more than lances these days
Eldar: Current favorite toys are suncannons, bladestorm, monofil, starcan, and scatter all=meh vs av13
Tau: Leaning towards s7 s5 spam, not good v av13.
Orks: Lists are more dakka focused with more shoota boys and lootas, not good v preds.
IG vets are packing plasma instead of melta.

Foot units have become less expensive in 6th ed books. Lists have more boots on the ground, and the meta has responded by trading in anti vehicle dakka for anti personel.

Again, at the range an auto/las or tri-las pred engages, AV 13 is non-trivial to engange. If the CSM want to send their helldrakes after my preds, then the preds have done their job in spades. Never mind the helldrakes will have to run the gauntlet of prescienced melta to get to them.

The bottom line is that schadenfreude is spot on. People are taking anti-personnel tech, not ranged anti-tank. That means the predator has the meta in its favor. Yeah, they still are going to die a lot, but 6th edition is a damn blood bath in my experience.

The predator doesn't really laugh at my heldrakes. Theyjust vector sstrike it's side 11 armor and go about their merry drake business.

Laugh? No. Not instantly die? Yes. Tie up the helldrakes, perhaps? S7 isn't that amazing vs AV 11. I'm fine with 50% of your strikes doing nothing.

Don't even need the hades, just vector strike their armor 11 and watch them die. Preds aren't an answer for the drake.

It's not that easy. Vector striking AV 11 takes time. It is a partial solution to tie up the helldrake trying to kill a 125-140 pt tank.

Just buy a bastion or a fortress of redemption and hide your MEQ inside lol

Seriously though I find less spam is the answer in all armies now. You need to make lists that confuse the meta, not that just answer one problem. I don't think replacing ALL your LF packs with predators is necessary but I also don't think I will be fielding my 15 missile wangs all at once for a while either

 Ailaros wrote:
Because helldrake is a perfectly valid argument, not because everybody has a helldrake, but because of what the helldrake represents - the ability to kill marines in cover.

In the case of the imperial guard, their "helldrake" is a colossus. In the case of space marines, their "helldrake" is a land raider redeemer. In the case of tau, their "helldrake" is markerlights combined with broadsides. And those are just the most obvious ones.

The plain and simple fact is that 5 space marines are going to be a LOT easier to kill than an AV13 vehicle. That durability loss is a real disadvantage, regardless of how many helldrakes the person in question happens to actually be facing off against at any given time.

And unfortunately for loyalist marines, everyone else's heldrake is much longer ranged or flying and probably a good deal cheaper.

 Kain wrote:
And unfortunately for loyalist marines, everyone else's heldrake is much longer ranged or flying and probably a good deal cheaper.

I consider the "Space Marine Heldrake" to be the Thunderfire Cannon, which has 60" range, is very cheap, and is quite hard to kill. While it doesn't quite kill Marines in cover the same as the other weapons, allowing them their armor saves, the number of wounds it can inflict against units bunched up in cover often accomplishes this goal anyway. Further, it can ignore cover when dealing with lighter troops, units that might Go to Ground for a 2+, and so on.

 Kingsley wrote:

 Kain wrote:
And unfortunately for loyalist marines, everyone else's heldrake is much longer ranged or flying and probably a good deal cheaper.

I consider the "Space Marine Heldrake" to be the Thunderfire Cannon, which has 60" range, is very cheap, and is quite hard to kill. While it doesn't quite kill Marines in cover the same as the other weapons, allowing them their armor saves, the number of wounds it can inflict against units bunched up in cover often accomplishes this goal anyway. Further, it can ignore cover when dealing with lighter troops, units that might Go to Ground for a 2+, and so on.

The TFC is downright nasty to softer units, yeah. And it can dish out a hurtful number of wounds to cover camping MEQs and TEQs.

If you're vector striking my pred you're not vector striking my marines. You're also looking at only managing to get the vector strike on turn 3. 3 turns, of living, to then take a around 1 or 2 turns to vector strike it... Assuming you some how turn around 180 degrees.