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Dwarfs hand down, in the Nemesis Crown campaign the dwarfs came out ahead as the victor between all other races

http://www.chaos-dwarfs.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=809

Plus in the storm of chaos campaign, the forces of order won.

Guys, it's simple math.

Daemons are infinite. They never die. They populate whole other dimension(s).

Every other race is finite. They have to make babies. If they lose 10,000 in a massive fight, it takes decades to replace those numbers. They live on a single planet (or island or country). Even VC and TK, eventually you run out of bodies. The number of ghosts is still finite.

If Daemons suicide rush a Slann every incursion, and have a non-zero chance of killing him, even if it's .0000000001%, they eventually win. Same for every other race. Unless you can match infinite and immortal, you lose to DoC.

The only reason they don't win is they don't seem amazingly concerned with winning. If they did, they wouldn't give everyone such random bonuses (hey, here's a new hand growing out of your face, enjoy) and would take a more active part. The fact it's called a Game to them shows you how easy it all is.

Empire.
Since we are picking the one that will rule it all it will be humans.
All the chaos powers (daemons, warriors of chaos) have too much infighting to ever completely rule. If one gains too much ground the other will attack them.
Skaven waaaay too much infighting.
Orcs and goblins...infighting but potential.
Beastmen leadership issues.
The ancient races are dying and don't reproduce fast enough.
Ogres too few.
The Empire are determined and able to unite well enough when threatened, to be the real rulers.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Guys, it's simple math.

Daemons are infinite. They never die. They populate whole other dimension(s).

Every other race is finite. They have to make babies. If they lose 10,000 in a massive fight, it takes decades to replace those numbers. They live on a single planet (or island or country). Even VC and TK, eventually you run out of bodies. The number of ghosts is still finite.

If Daemons suicide rush a Slann every incursion, and have a non-zero chance of killing him, even if it's .0000000001%, they eventually win. Same for every other race. Unless you can match infinite and immortal, you lose to DoC.

The only reason they don't win is they don't seem amazingly concerned with winning. If they did, they wouldn't give everyone such random bonuses (hey, here's a new hand growing out of your face, enjoy) and would take a more active part. The fact it's called a Game to them shows you how easy it all is.

Really?! I thought daemons and undead had instability. It's not easy for them to remain in the material realm except in areas like the poles of the world and it takes a lot of energy to summon them all (hence why the only necromancer that has come close is nagash that has ever held enough power to nearly conquer the world). Generally i think it depends on how much magic is in the area for there to be a lot of daemon, undead, mutants, etc. but then a lot of power is coming around anyway. In a way you'd think daemons would actually attack in fewer numbers than they ever did in the 'time of legends' type books. It might just be me and though magic is potent it still seems like warhammer fantasy is slowly replacing magic with technology. If one wishes to think so then that means more magical races will suffer more whereas ones that don't need it like dwarfs would do the best.

Then again what do i know as my knowledge of the lore is crappy at best.

In nearly every bad guy book they put in some line about what they need to rule the world, skaven if they stop their internal scheming, beastmen if they can get the right warlord, vampires if neferata's schemes come to fruition, undead if nagash returns in all his pomp etc.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:


Really?! I thought daemons and undead had instability. It's not easy for them to remain in the material realm except in areas like the poles of the world and it takes a lot of energy to summon them all (hence why the only necromancer that has come close is nagash that has ever held enough power to nearly conquer the world). Generally i think it depends on how much magic is in the area for there to be a lot of daemon, undead, mutants, etc. but then a lot of power is coming around anyway. In a way you'd think daemons would actually attack in fewer numbers than they ever did in the 'time of legends' type books. It might just be me and though magic is potent it still seems like warhammer fantasy is slowly replacing magic with technology. If one wishes to think so then that means more magical races will suffer more whereas ones that don't need it like dwarfs would do the best.

Then again what do i know as my knowledge of the lore is crappy at best.

They can't stay for a long time, that's why they don't have any settlements (or need thereof), that's the task for the Warriors of Chaos, their corporeal counterparts. Chaos is the absolute thing in the end and will prevail as they are...well, Duke said it already. You cannot win against Chaos. It's a power far beyond anything mortals could understand and even LM do not have a chance despite the "counter-measures" they take. LM could not even defend themselves against Chaos as they got no allies and are very few to begin with. And, as usual, they are immortal.

Guess why there aren't any LM anymore approximately 40.000 years later

Daemons can't stay because of spells and rocks keeping them out and the combined efforts of like 3+ races. Rocks which Beastmen and WoC are constantly attacking and pulling down. In infinite time, they will be destroyed, weather away, be earthquaked, techtonic shifted, flooded, hurricaned, and otherwise destroyed. In the HE book the DE had wanted to attack (whatever island) which kept DoC at bay, if they had succeeded, that would have been it. One guy betrayed them and they failed. That's how close it is All The Time to the planet being overrun.

Again, it's a case of HE going "ZOMG we must keep these guys out or our planet is doomed!" and DoC being like, "LOLOLOL this is fun."

Lizardmen.

DukeRustfield wrote:
If they did, they wouldn't give everyone such random bonuses (hey, here's a new hand growing out of your face, enjoy)

HAHAHAHAHA

Man, I really laughed at that.

Ok I'm gonna chime in about Chaos here... First, are INDIVIDUAL demons immortal? Or is it just that demons are infinitely produced?

And what about where demons come from? I know this isn't 40K, but I have to use 40K as an example because I don't know how it works in fantasy. But in 40K, aren't demons just the result of living beings' emotions or something? So as the living beings decrease in number, doesn't that weaken demons?

I guess what I'm getting at is that you can't just say Chaos as a "force" because without an instrument, it has no means to affect any change. And if Chaos (and demons) depend on anything for their existence, then they're arguably in the same position as every other race with finite resources.

Bonus question - are there any "good" gods or forces in WHFB?

Would it not boil down to the owner of the Von Carstein Ring!
Currently in the hands of a Vampire Knight of the White Wolf, hiding in a Dwarf stronghold somewhere.

Or Gortex and Felik - the way the books keep on coming, there would be no one left, No Daemon, Skaven or anything!

Yeah the von Carstein ring! Did they ever say how that thing got made?

Technically you can count sigmar as a good god or force, but the only other ones I can think of are thyroid elves gods such as asuryan and Isha

Yeah but I mean, are those dudes gods in the same sense that the chaos gods are gods? Is there a creator god?

Is there a creator god?

Yeah, lets question the existence of other gods in an entirely different universe

All daemons are immortal.

In fact Chaos Dwarfs' Hashut god is "just" a Greater Daemon. And IMHO, so is Skaven rat god (hints in the DoC book). So that's not even the top dog able to be a god to entire races and grant spells and powers.

So how do you kill, like, an individual Bloodletter?

"Indeed a daemon cannot truly be slain. Its physical body can be destroyed, true enough, but this merely banishes the daemon's spirit into the swirling wellspring of magical energy known as the forge of souls. Thus vanquished, the daemon embarks on the process of creating a new body to inhabit and dreams of vengeance against those that humbled it so."

"The chaos gods ...stand united: the damnation of the mortal realm and all who dwell within it. Only when victory is within their grasp do the dark gods fall to fighting amongst themselves again....Thus is the mortal world preserved from ultimate destruction--not through valor or strength at arms, but through the same godly greed that proved the initial onslaught."


Only the chaos gods stop the chaos gods from destroying the mortal realm. Not ruling it. Destroying it

In true Hollywood-film fashion, the Kingdoms of men (Bretonnia, The Empire, Kislev, Araby, Cathay, etc) as well as Dwarfs and Elves will ally and stamp chaos out for good. Things will be at their worst before this happens and the ancestor gods such as Sigmar, Grugni, etc (Don't they always wander off up north in the fluff?) will return and turn the tide of battle. Though the exact method of this will contain many plot holes that will be ignored or glossed over.

I'm too much of an optimist to believe that the "bad" guys will win.

Failing that, whichever race Mat Ward is working on next.

if somehow by some miracle that the wood elves, dark elves, and high elves can put aside their grievances then you could make a strong argument that a unified elven race could rule the world

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Vampire counts, cause Nagash. Most powerful *living* entity in the warhammer world ( Mazamundi might be more powerful, but lacks the will and ambition + Kroak is dead, so I guess Nagash could raise him!)

If Kroak counts as dead then so does Nagash. He's a Lich after all. Teclis might have something to say about the whole "most powerful" part as well.

Definatly Skaven.

I'd like to see the rest of the WH world beat 150,000,000 rats.

There would never be 150M skaven because they don't have the food to support that. They already have the hunger. If they ever took over the world they would have nothing to eat, no longer able to rely on other races for food. They would self-destruct and eat each other.

And of course Daemons could take on a 150 trillion rats. And Skaven worship just a minor version of DoC, so in a way if they win, DoC wins anyway.

Let's even assume there were a million rats...do you know the number of demons in the warp?

Infinite.

If the stakes are 1 mio. vs infinite...I know who to put my money on.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Let's even assume there were a million rats...do you know the number of demons in the warp?

Infinite.

If the stakes are 1 mio. vs infinite...I know who to put my money on.

If the Skaven ruled the world, they could probably built something to keep the deamons out [that didn't explode].

Oh and in reply to Walrus Earth is supporting 40x as many humans, and I'd bet that Skaven need less food than humans.

They WORSHIP DoC. Their Lord is a Daemon. They aren't trying to keep DoC out. They are subservient to DoC. Arguably the Great Horned Rat is "merely" a powerful Greater Daemon--if you read the DoC book, there is a picture that shows "Lair of the Thirtheenth Lord" in Nurgle's land and it a giant rat burrow called "Gnawhame."

High Elves aren't going to build something to keep out Asurian.

DukeRustfield wrote:
They WORSHIP DoC. Their Lord is a Daemon. They aren't trying to keep DoC out. They are subservient to DoC. Arguably the Great Horned Rat is "merely" a powerful Greater Daemon--if you read the DoC book, there is a picture that shows "Lair of the Thirtheenth Lord" in Nurgle's land and it a giant rat burrow called "Gnawhame."

High Elves aren't going to build something to keep out Asurian.

Who said that there isn't a possiblity of a Skaven convincing the others to stop worshipping the GHR?

 sing your life wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
They WORSHIP DoC. Their Lord is a Daemon. They aren't trying to keep DoC out. They are subservient to DoC. Arguably the Great Horned Rat is "merely" a powerful Greater Daemon--if you read the DoC book, there is a picture that shows "Lair of the Thirtheenth Lord" in Nurgle's land and it a giant rat burrow called "Gnawhame."

High Elves aren't going to build something to keep out Asurian.

Who said that there isn't a possiblity of a Skaven convincing the others to stop worshipping the GHR?

Who said that there isn't a possibility that the power of love makes Khorne cry and his cancer-curing tears rid the world of all evil?

We prefer to think in at least somehow realistic and fluff-ish ways.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 sing your life wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
They WORSHIP DoC. Their Lord is a Daemon. They aren't trying to keep DoC out. They are subservient to DoC. Arguably the Great Horned Rat is "merely" a powerful Greater Daemon--if you read the DoC book, there is a picture that shows "Lair of the Thirtheenth Lord" in Nurgle's land and it a giant rat burrow called "Gnawhame."

High Elves aren't going to build something to keep out Asurian.

Who said that there isn't a possiblity of a Skaven convincing the others to stop worshipping the GHR?

Who said that there isn't a possibility that the power of love makes Khorne cry and his cancer-curing tears rid the world of all evil?

We prefer to think in at least somehow realistic and fluff-ish ways.

ANYTHING CAN CHANGE!!!!!

EDIT: I will not be reply to this thread anymore.

Well, that was odd.

Dwarves will annihilate anyone in their way. headbutt to the groin is way overpowered.