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Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Why is he not? Why is having a job that someone considers lowly not entitled to a life? Or is it because his job is lowly he doesnt deserve resonable pay?
Beside, have you worked on a grill before? IT is hard work, I work on a girll, daily i have to clean out grease traps, clean out fryers and cook food, sometime 5-10 different order all by myself.


Because labor value is not based upon how hard it is; it's based upon supply and demand. As the barrier to entry for flipping burgers is about the lowest one can get, it's one of the lowest paying jobs you can find. On the contrary, finding someone who can maintain a server room, provide 3rd level support for 60+ products, including customer facing contact when necessary, handle enough programming to be able to personally implement special project when necessary, and as about an hour ago, also be a project manager for a massive global company-wide application to be implemented over the next year, all at the same time, is not so easy.

And don't get me wrong, I have flipped burgers, cleaned out grease traps and fryers, and dealt with 5-10 (at times, possibly more) customer orders all by myself. I've also made pizzas, done personal computer repair, been a salesman, shoveled gak, and other jobs involving odd combinations of physical and metal labor. Most of those were miserable, intolerable jobs. For several years, I actually lived off of a combination of two minimum wage jobs, totaling 40 hours, so I have little pity for people who say they can't.

Amusingly, I consider the restaurant work to be some of most enjoyable. I got to work with my hands, producing meaningful output that contributed toward some actual purpose (as opposed to hollow powerpoint slides that cause more harm than good), and I kept all my thoughts and idea as my own during that period of time. I could go home and do anything.

Compare that with now, where I never know what I'm going to have to do every day I wake up, I'm too distracted by needing to multitask to really focus on what I need to do let alone what I want to think about, and the job follows me home when it needs to, I'd almost take back the burger-flipper job, as it seems like the easier one.

Do I wish you got paid more? Absolutely. Do I wish that I got paid more? Absolutely. Do I understand why neither of us do? Yes.

I do agree that jobs are based not on work but skillset, But the way the original comment was worded as if those who just flip burgers are not entitled to a resonable life just for their job. I do not think they should make bank, what im saying is that it should be enough to live on. Maybe then we wouldnt have to deal with having to subsidize people who dnt make enough because employer only pay them very little


And who decides what is enough to live on? What is a "reasonable life" anyway?

Flipping burgers is a, pardon the turn of phrase, "crap" job. You are not entitled to a reasonable life, that is something you earn for yourself. Work at an absolutely rock bottom job like flipping burgers at McDs or Burger King = get paid rock bottom wages.


Yes, you can't exactly raise a family and live in a nice apartment working at Burger King. That's why you try to get a job elsewhere that pays more(and consequently requires a better skillset)

If you aren't qualified for a better job or are but the job market is competitive and can afford to hire overqualified people then that's just how the chips fall. The economy sucks right now and there's a glut of qualified experienced jobseekers. You'll just have to wait for things to get better. The government's job isn't to hold your hand and make sure everyone makes it.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
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Im not saying it does, It screwed alot up, but atleast it is trying. And I'm saying that something needs to be done about insurance, i know far too many people that decide to just not take insurance because they don't make enough. but they make too much to be on state benifits.

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Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I do agree that jobs are based not on work but skillset, But the way the original comment was worded as if those who just flip burgers are not entitled to a resonable life just for their job. I do not think they should make bank, what im saying is that it should be enough to live on. Maybe then we wouldnt have to deal with having to subsidize people who dnt make enough because employer only pay them very little


Well then, what IS reasonable? Where does that money come from?

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not saying it does, It screwed alot up, but atleast it is trying. And I'm saying that something needs to be done about insurance, i know far too many people that decide to just not take insurance because they don't make enough. but they make too much to be on state benifits.


No disagreement there.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im not saying it does, It screwed alot up, but atleast it is trying. And I'm saying that something needs to be done about insurance, i know far too many people that decide to just not take insurance because they don't make enough. but they make too much to be on state benifits.


It happens, I would think that for 90% of the time, you pay for health insurance that you don't ever use. I've had vision, health, and dental for about 9 months because of my job, and I've yet to use them because I don't need them (the dental thing I do, because I am in dire need for a checkup :(), but if I don't have health insurance, and I aspirate a thumbtack (something my old housemate did), I would not want to be stuck paying the bill of 50 grand to remove a fething thumbtack from his lung... the 3k that he owed was much more manageable, all because he pays 150 bucks or so a month for health insurance (idk what our rates are atm)

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
One of the biggest problems with insurance is that it is barely regulated and run by people that think you are better off dead.


While insurance is pretty fethed up right now, do you really think the government will change anything if they were in charge?

The government has to think about money too. If they're in charge of insurance they may also deny coverage based on prior history. Or even worse, simply string you along in waiting lines hoping you die before its your turn.

It just changes who's the face at the top.


The Hospital can't deny you treatment for a mandatory surgery. All insurance does is foot the bill, not determine if it happens or not. Without insurance, you have to pay it yourself that's all.

An uninsured person isn't denied medical treatment, they just have to pay for it themselves.

Yeah, going into debt because of a medical emergency sucks but it sure beats being dead. Life isn't fair, get over it.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Excellent Exalted Champion of Chaos






Lake Forest, California, South Orange County

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
One of the biggest problems with insurance is that it is barely regulated and run by people that think you are better off dead.


With how much health insurance costs, I might financially be better off dead, as at least then my life insurance would pay for a house for the family. I shouldn't make more money for dying than it costs to stay alive.

"Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! ... It’s become the promotions department of a toy company." -- Rick Priestly
 
   
Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 Alfndrate wrote:
and I aspirate a thumbtack


Back up a second. You lost me here.

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

The real reason medical costs are expensive isn't because of insurance. Its because of the overinflated costs of medicine.

And medical companies charge those prices because they can.


You want to seriously reduce medical costs? Make it so medicine patents expire much quicker than they do, so competition between companies can drive the prices down.

Insurance companies aren't the bad guy here, its the companies that actually make the medicine.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Old Sourpuss






Lakewood, Ohio

 daedalus wrote:
 Alfndrate wrote:
and I aspirate a thumbtack


Back up a second. You lost me here.


Inhale a thumbtack. Back in like September/October, my housemate was down in the basement updating his computer, and he had a thumbtack in his mouth (like how one might chew on a pen), and he coughed/sneezed and inhaled the thumbtack. It got lodged in one of the bronchial tubes and almost fell into his lung. He went to the hospital for a day or so and they couldn't get it out. They flew him up to Cleveland and they eventually pulled it out of his lungs... The entire ordeal would have cost him 50 grand... Insurance dropped it to about 3.

DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+

Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Ok, maybe im wrong. I just think that sometimes people get thrown gak in life and rather then people trying to help them we look at them and say they need to get out of the path. Let me put it this way, My cousin worked as a truck driver, the very job that caused him to have a bad knee, he had to take a few weeks off for it to recover, but the insurance cut him off when they found out he didnt have a job, so he couldnt get the drugs to make his knee better, so he was not able to go back to work. He was about a year later after it was fully healed. But that year was crap.
Or my mother who nearly had to pay a 5000$ hospital bill because she got a treatment her insurance said it wouldnt pay for.

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Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

Okay. I was more hung up on the "how on earth you manage that" part, rather than the "what aspirate means" part, but that's good.

Well, not good, actually. Not good at all. I mean, it's sufficient explanation.


....it's actually quite bad.

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The Great State of Texas

 Grey Templar wrote:
The real reason medical costs are expensive isn't because of insurance. Its because of the overinflated costs of medicine.

And medical companies charge those prices because they can.


You want to seriously reduce medical costs? Make it so medicine patents expire much quicker than they do, so competition between companies can drive the prices down.

Insurance companies aren't the bad guy here, its the companies that actually make the medicine.


You want to really cut costs? Ban all medical equipment invented after 1938. It will do wonders.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Ok, I should have said cut costs without setting medical science back 50 years.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






 Grey Templar wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
One of the biggest problems with insurance is that it is barely regulated and run by people that think you are better off dead.


While insurance is pretty fethed up right now, do you really think the government will change anything if they were in charge?
t.

Well who else is going too? If we just leave them alone like i see quite a bit of people advocating they will just make you pay more.

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Made in us
Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, maybe im wrong. I just think that sometimes people get thrown gak in life and rather then people trying to help them we look at them and say they need to get out of the path. Let me put it this way, My cousin worked as a truck driver, the very job that caused him to have a bad knee, he had to take a few weeks off for it to recover, but the insurance cut him off when they found out he didnt have a job, so he couldnt get the drugs to make his knee better, so he was not able to go back to work. He was about a year later after it was fully healed. But that year was crap.
Or my mother who nearly had to pay a 5000$ hospital bill because she got a treatment her insurance said it wouldnt pay for.


Yup, add in something there about how the few times you do actually get helped out by some sort of outside assistance you marginalize it so that you can pretend you got whereever you have entirely on your own two feet, and that's basically how humanity works.

Other than grouphugs and daisy necklaces, how do you propose we fix it? I'm genuinely curious

Assume all my mathhammer comes from here: https://github.com/daed/mathhammer 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Dang...was going to add something to the thread....but the thumbtack incident got me.....what's your roommate chewing on now?

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I will admit that I dont, But i see far too many people thinking insurance is just fine as it is with it not needing to be fixed at all.
Also, dont underestimate the power of a daisy, those things are terrifying.

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Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

I don't think Insurance is fine as it is. I just think the suggested fixes are far worse.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Can see quite a few democrats getting hammered with this when their reelection comes up....quite a few

edit

Then we all be challenge to find politicians that cracks us up and/or wonder WTH they were smoking when that class was giving out

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 21:21:45


Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
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Member of the Ethereal Council






 Jihadin wrote:

Then we all be challenge to find politicians that cracks us up and/or wonder WTH they were smoking when that class was giving out

What? Im confused by what you mean here.

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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
One of the biggest problems with insurance is that it is barely regulated and run by people that think you are better off dead.

100% completely false.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grey Templar wrote:
The real reason medical costs are expensive isn't because of insurance. Its because of the overinflated costs of medicine.

And medical companies charge those prices because they can.


You want to seriously reduce medical costs? Make it so medicine patents expire much quicker than they do, so competition between companies can drive the prices down.

Insurance companies aren't the bad guy here, its the companies that actually make the medicine.

Eh... medication costs in general isn't the biggest driver for the rising cost.

However, the PATENT laws themselves really do need to be addressed to prevent Drug Manufacturer from "reformulating" existing drugs to ensure they lock down that market. (see here if you want more info, see this)
There are 3 huge factors...
1) We're getting older as a nation and we're generally an unhealthy population
2) Because we're getting older, we need more manpower to staff the healthcare organization. Employed people has always been the largest expense in running a healthcare organization. This is why you're hearing that Nursing Staff's hours are cut and/or their overtime opportunity hours are reduced.
3a) Finally, Government Assistance programs, such as Medicare/medicaide, the reimbursement rates is arbitrarily being reduced. Math dictates that the money has to come from somewhere else to make up the different. Either by charging more elsewhere, or cutting operational costs, or even shutting down those services.

3b) This is one of the major reason why we're seeing an explosion of "concierge cash only physicians".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 21:35:04


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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 djones520 wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
You're right. The minimum wage should be raised. If Wal-Mart doesn't like it, then they don't have to retail in California.

I agree, minimum wage should be brough up to where you can reasonably live on it.


I'll get on board with this when you can explain to me why a burger flipper at Burger King is entitled to a "reasonable" life. Lets go one step forward, and figure out what that "reasonable" life will cost.


Let's lay a little game here. Monday, a miracle occurs and everyone has a college degree - bachelor's minimum. Tuesday, another miracle occurs - everyone has a job in the field of their degree, making good money ($50K at least) and starts Wednesday.

Lunchtime Wednesday. To celebrate the double miracle, you and all your new coworkers decide to go out to lunch at a nice restaurant. Hunh. They're all closed.

A not-so-nice restaurant? Nope, closed as well.

Fast food? Nope, no luck.

Okay, we'll go to the grocery store and get stuff for a picnic. Nope, they're closed too! In fact, ALL retail stores are closed! What happened?

Oh yeah. All the retail people now have degrees and work in offices. Two weeks later, society melts down because there's no one stocking fresh food at the grocery stores, there's no one ringing the sales out, there's no one flipping burgers, and 90% of the population is out of food.


So as you can see, those people making minimum wage in retail are a necessary part of a functioning economy. With that in mind, how do you justify paying them 25% LESS than the poverty level - assuming they are actually working 40 hours a week, which NONE of them are?

Short of 'they suck so they don't deserve it....'

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Fort Campbell

So you take an impossible example, and use that to justify changing the entire world?

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 Vulcan wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 azazel the cat wrote:
You're right. The minimum wage should be raised. If Wal-Mart doesn't like it, then they don't have to retail in California.

I agree, minimum wage should be brough up to where you can reasonably live on it.


I'll get on board with this when you can explain to me why a burger flipper at Burger King is entitled to a "reasonable" life. Lets go one step forward, and figure out what that "reasonable" life will cost.


Let's lay a little game here. Monday, a miracle occurs and everyone has a college degree - bachelor's minimum. Tuesday, another miracle occurs - everyone has a job in the field of their degree, making good money ($50K at least) and starts Wednesday.

Lunchtime Wednesday. To celebrate the double miracle, you and all your new coworkers decide to go out to lunch at a nice restaurant. Hunh. They're all closed.

A not-so-nice restaurant? Nope, closed as well.

Fast food? Nope, no luck.

Okay, we'll go to the grocery store and get stuff for a picnic. Nope, they're closed too! In fact, ALL retail stores are closed! What happened?

Oh yeah. All the retail people now have degrees and work in offices. Two weeks later, society melts down because there's no one stocking fresh food at the grocery stores, there's no one ringing the sales out, there's no one flipping burgers, and 90% of the population is out of food.


So as you can see, those people making minimum wage in retail are a necessary part of a functioning economy. With that in mind, how do you justify paying them 25% LESS than the poverty level - assuming they are actually working 40 hours a week, which NONE of them are?

Short of 'they suck so they don't deserve it....'

Sometimes I wish i was a coherant as this.

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Kid_Kyoto






Probably work

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I will admit that I dont, But i see far too many people thinking insurance is just fine as it is with it not needing to be fixed at all.
Also, dont underestimate the power of a daisy, those things are terrifying.


Don't misunderstand me. I'm not championing things the way they are. I'd love to have a GB style system, for example. All I'm saying is that what we had was bad, but what we're getting is going to be much worse.


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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 whembly wrote:
However, the PATENT laws themselves really do need to be addressed to prevent Drug Manufacturer from "reformulating" existing drugs to ensure they lock down that market..


Yeah, that's pure garbage. I think the 7 year window of exclusive sales is fine, but the reformulations just piss all over the whole idea. It desperately needs to be re-addressed.

Additionally I'd love to see something to spur companies into producing the high-effort low-profit drugs such as flu shots. Those really are something that is hard to work in with a for-profit health system, but clearly low cost, highly accessible flu shots are in the public interest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/11 21:49:04


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
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Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

Except its a completely preposterous example that proves nothing.

Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines

Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Wait one....anyone else notice a "college degree" not so good anymore? Its more like they're after tech people. I've two degree's Associative in Surgical Tech and a Bachelor on Aircraft Maintenance Production Management....something freaking silly like that....oh and my Airframe and Power Plant License from those classes. Lets not forget the crash course on a "Movement Coordinator" which I think translate to the RL to something else...I can't remember at the moment but that a high five figure job with security clearences...mine are good for another 4 yrs...I retire next month....22 yrs in....asshats wanted to keep me longer so had to do a drug deal with them but right now I'm getting the feeling its not education they want....its the experience they want and how wide spread that experience...

Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog
Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.

Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Grey Templar wrote:
And what makes you valuable enough to keep around as a burger flipper? There are plenty of others that will work your job for the same pay. An unskilled teenager can do it and we've got those coming out of our ears.


No, an unskilled teenager CANNOT do it. I've worked with unskilled teenagers, they either become SKILLED teenagers or they go out the door.

Cooking burgers, dressing buns, keeping orders straight, keeping your temper around donkey cave customers as well as keeping your work area clean and safe, ON TOP OF doing all in a minimum of time IS a skill... and it's nowhere NEAR as easy as you think.

Try working a grill sometime when it's 100 degrees plus and do all that sometime. It's a very enlightening experience as to just how much work it takes to be a lowly fast food worker.

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