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 Melissia wrote:
So... you're assuming that Orks will basically have to apply better tactics in order to win, because they're weaker in every other way.

So then, what happens if (when) there are not only more Space Marine players, who are playing stronger characters, but both sides are equally well led?


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I like how you kept saying noobs instead of nobs

Yeah, I wonder if there's someone else on his team that might be better at talking about non-Space Marine lore. Certainly he's not good at it.

Give Miguel a break. I don't think English is his first language, and at least he's making the effort as the Studio Head to come down to talk to us here and on other forums. How many other game dev studio heads do you see do that? Especially outside their own forums, too. To respond to the first part, well, they get the Tyranid treatment more then!

I also forgot to mention, there was some side-talk about having early beta keys given to community members, hmm...

 Enigwolf wrote:
I also forgot to mention, there was some side-talk about having early beta keys given to community members, hmm...

Shrug. Even if I am to give him a break, I hope you realize that I'm just one person, and that these kinds of "Sisters suck" or "Ork leaders are noobs", and the like, make it appear as if he doesn't really care that much about anyone who isn't playing a Space Marine. It reminds me of Wargame: ALB, whose French developers often seem to give a little too many buffs to the French units in that particular game-- HMM I wonder why! Hell, people accuse me of "hating" Space Marines despite my history of complimenting and listing certain Space Marine chapters as some of my favorite bits in the lore...

So meh, I'd rather simply be blunt and honest now and hope for the best.

Man, I really hope they don't call nobs noobs in game...that would be hilarious in a bad way.

 Melissia wrote:
So... you're assuming that Orks will basically have to apply better tactics in order to win, because they're weaker in every other way.

So then, what happens if (when) there are not only more Space Marine players, who are playing stronger characters, but both sides are equally well led?

You have a very good point though: the paying players WILL be better led simply because those people really care for the game. And they got superior equipment / stuff.

Still: mind your tone. English isn't his native language and it's not a given that actual developers talk to (future) users. Ranting at him is the worst thing one can do. Sure, you don't like what he says. I don't like what he says either for some parts, but even, subjectively, bad news are better than no news.

I'm not sure where Migeul specifically said "better tactics to win" Mel. He said that he's trying to account for the game's balance by having each side being equally capable, but not equal to each other.

That'd not the way I read it. He said Orks are weaker and so they'd need to have a good leader to win.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
I'm not sure where Migeul specifically said "better tactics to win" Mel. He said that he's trying to account for the game's balance by having each side being equally capable, but not equal to each other.

I guess she referred to the part where he talked about interrupting the enemy's supply line.

He talked about maximizing the Ork strengths and minimizing weaknesses, but Orks have not been stated to HAVE any particular strengths aside from numbers-- they're flat out weaker than Space Marines.

So take numbers away from them and they have... what, exactly?

 Melissia wrote:
That'd not the way I read it. He said Orks are weaker and so they'd need to have a good leader to win.

I'm assuming you're talking about the 2:1 - 3:1 ratio he updated in the other post defining Orks to be "weaker" than everyone else. Let's assume for the sake of argument that for some reason we get the worst possible outcome and that everyone buys the game, and not one person is going to do F2P.

Also, the population of the player base is vastly unequal, with 1/3 of players on SM's, another 1/3 on CSM and the rest split between Orks and Eldar. It is likely that that all P2P characters are equal to each other in some fashion - either in armor (SM/CSM) Hp - Ork Nobs - or speed (Eldar).

The simple fact remains: We have no idea how these races will actually pan out in gameplay. All we know is that it's not going to be the same between each race, and it's likely to be heavily influenced by the table top. If we're to assume anything, then let us assume the characteristics of each army rather than guess at statistics we have neither concrete knowledge of, or the analytic capabilities to interpret. Perhaps SM's and CSM are terrible at doing ambush tactics (or can't really at all apart from drop pods) because they can't hide like other races can.

Sure,SM's and CSM's are powerful. They're like the Roman Legion efficient, lightning fast, and nigh unstoppable when brought to bear against an enemy when they themselves have been organized. Yet the German tribes and eventually most of the bar bar bar barbarians kicked their butts both on and off the battlefield. Those Orks that are paying to play are challenging to beat in combat even without their hordes of F2P characters, because they're 1:1 and at the very least they will be organized enough to make any faction suffer by their hands alone. That's not even accounting that 40k has massive explosions, mines, rockets, and other huge splash damage mechanics. And the Eldar? Faster, harder hitting guerrilla tactics, with stealth, mass teleportation and flying tanks? That's terrifying enough to allow them to be P2P on its own.

Now add 1000's... if not 10's of thousands of F2P Orks and suddenly it doesn't even matter what the ratio is between the factions... the Orks are going to stomp on people's faces all day long because they'd have the tactical capabilities SM's don't, they'd have the numbers, and the sheer amount of dakka to crush everyone and everything in their way even if the boyz don't listen to which direction the Nobs are shouting for them to go.

K, done editing lol.

So this argument is based entirely on the assumption that paying Space Marines will outnumber the Orks, who will have both paying "full" characters as well as hordes of F2P Boyz?

I've said it before, but as this discussion keeps getting dragged out revolving around the same "worst case" prophecies again and again:

I'm much, much more worried about the Eldar, because - assuming Mel's projections are correct - this race will have to deal with the same Marine popularity as the Orks, but will not have access to a large supply of free players supporting the "core" of paying ones.
The way I see it, F2P hordes may work well as a balancing mechanic directing numbers into the less popular races to increase their chances on the battlefield, whilst still giving said F2P players an incentive to pay and join the aforementioned core.

Let's be brutally honest - if all races would be either pay-to-play or free-to-play, I think we all know which faction would have the most attendance. And that might get boring fast, even with the "Tyranid PvE" the Marines would have to deal with.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I like how you kept saying noobs instead of nobs

Thanks for the update Miguel!

 DemetriDominov wrote:
The simple fact remains: We have no idea how these races will actually pan out in gameplay.

That does not equate to anything that might possibly remotely dispute anything I have said in this thread.

 Lynata wrote:
So this argument is based entirely on the assumption that paying Space Marines will outnumber the Orks, who will have both paying "full" characters as well as hordes of F2P Boyz?

Actually I'm working off the assumption that after a year or so (and that's being generous), the F2P players will be mostly scared off because they exist for no reason other than to be slaughtered by Space Marines or bossed around by paying Ork players-- the devs have openly expressed hatred and contempt for them and want them to suffer and gtfo out of their game.

 Melissia wrote:

 DemetriDominov wrote:
The simple fact remains: We have no idea how these races will actually pan out in gameplay.

That does not equate to anything that might possibly remotely dispute anything I have said in this thread.

 Lynata wrote:
So this argument is based entirely on the assumption that paying Space Marines will outnumber the Orks, who will have both paying "full" characters as well as hordes of F2P Boyz?

Actually I'm working off the assumption that after a year or so (and that's being generous), the F2P players will be mostly scared off because they exist for no reason other than to be slaughtered by Space Marines or bossed around by paying Ork players-- the devs have openly expressed hatred and contempt for them and want them to suffer and gtfo out of their game.

Actually it does. For one thing, this ratio we've been disputing is still pretty vague. 2:1, 3:1, and even 5:1 doesn't really give a good description of how that number plays out apart that it means a F2P player either has to be smarter or play better than a P2P player if he wants to take him out on his own. Does the ratio mean in CC? At range? An overall mix between the two? How about when a SM steps on a landmine takes the dmg of one player, then by the same token get's hit by a rocket or an axe by that same player reducing the ratio to 1:1? Without knowledge of how this ratio is being determined it leaves a lot of room for interpretation that most of us are filling in with assumptions. Also, in SM the multiplayer mode was generally a game of ratio rock paper scissors (Tactical kills Assault, Assault kills Devastator, Devastator kills Tactical) The odds of a lesser class beating its superior (an Assault trying to kill a Tactical) was generally between 2:1 and 3:1. Meaning 2 Assault Marines: to 1 Tactical would have a great chance of succeeding and 3 Assault Marines : 1 Tactical being almost certain death for the Tactical Marine even if he would outright kill an Assault Marine the majority of the time 1:1.

With full access to the game apart from leadership roles, F2P players seem much more than just lambs to the slaughter Mel. I think really there hasn't been any hatred expressed by anyone on the dev team. Not even towards the Sisters, which I would take as a good sign if you plan on playing them in the future.


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 Lynata wrote:
So this argument is based entirely on the assumption that paying Space Marines will outnumber the Orks, who will have both paying "full" characters as well as hordes of F2P Boyz?

I've said it before, but as this discussion keeps getting dragged out revolving around the same "worst case" prophecies again and again:

I'm much, much more worried about the Eldar, because - assuming Mel's projections are correct - this race will have to deal with the same Marine popularity as the Orks, but will not have access to a large supply of free players supporting the "core" of paying ones.
The way I see it, F2P hordes may work well as a balancing mechanic directing numbers into the less popular races to increase their chances on the battlefield, whilst still giving said F2P players an incentive to pay and join the aforementioned core.

Let's be brutally honest - if all races would be either pay-to-play or free-to-play, I think we all know which faction would have the most attendance. And that might get boring fast, even with the "Tyranid PvE" the Marines would have to deal with.

I agree with you to an extent. But remember, if this game is throwing whatever semblance of balance we're used to out the window, we can probably infer that each race will be very similar to how it works on TT. This means that the Eldar don't need huge numbers to be extremely effective on the battlefield. In fact, the smaller and more organized they are, the better they will work because they are faster and harder hitting than other armies. If deployed as a horde of unorganized Ork Boyz equivalents they will slow the army down and get smoked because they can't sustain the same amounts of damage the other races can.

 DemetriDominov wrote:
With full access to the game

They don't get that.

They cannot advance beyond "Ork Boyz"-- they're eternally stuck as a starter class, as it were, and can never become stronger.

Dear Fans,

First, I took note of everybody that made fun of my Noobs vs Nobs LOL and I will see you on the battlefield where only the language of your blades matters. :-) I will take the time to review my orthograph next time I post and Yes french is my first language but NO nothing will be artificialy increase because I love Chaos.

Second, many of DemetriDominov assumptions are approximately correct. Please, dont worry too much about it, YOU (if you want to) will be part of early BETA's where we will test all the algorithm for balance with YOU until the majority is satisfied.

Regards

Miguel

Your Studio Head Behaviour Online.

FLAKK YEA!

To be fair, when the game is released, I expect most people trying to be funny to call nobs "noobs"

My chainsword will be teethed and ready Miguel. We all know deep down everyone who stands against the Emperors legions are noobs destined to fall beneath foot and bullet.

 unmercifulconker wrote:
My chainsword will be teethed and ready Miguel. We all know deep down everyone who stands against the Emperors legions are noobs destined to fall beneath foot and bullet.

*nobs!

oh yes! id love to be in the beta! and a fellow chaos warrior Miguel, we've got a lot to talk about.... if you want to join a chaos guild or just want info from a chaos fan perspective join the red corsairs. also from what im seeing here a dakka chaos will be a minority, hopefully there strong as chaos have the single strongest standard troop excluding the necrons (I think)

 The Dark Apostle wrote:
as chaos have the single strongest standard troop excluding the necrons (I think)

...No they don't... lol. GKSS, GKT, Guardians/Dire Avengers, to name a few.

I'll probably take a look at the beta, but the fact that I'd be limited to only Eldar (I'm not interested in roleplaying as a dude for hundreds of hours, I've done that more than enough for one lifetime with all the games I've played tyvm) would probably make me lose interest really quickly.

I said standard troop, like baseline

Please, the best standard baseline troop is the IG Platoon

GKSS and GKTs outshoot and outmelee CSM. Guardians and Dire Avengers can run and shoot with Rending weapons in the same turn. Necrons can glance vehicles to death. All of this baseline.

Mellisia, if you are neither excited or in anyway interested in this game ten why do you post here? You annoy a lot of people and get us are aggressive and angry. Please just stop and acting like a troll I'll report if you don't stop. If you disagree with the game then don't post.

 The Dark Apostle wrote:
Mellisia, if you are neither excited or in anyway interested in this game ten why do you post here?

Because I WANT to be excited and interested in this game.

And I meant on lore, I barely actually play a game of warhanmsr and prefer simply collecting and painting

Again, in lore, IG platoons are better

I know how you feel, when you want to want something a lot but it's got too many problems, I hate to say this cause people said it to me a lot and I hated it but just forget and come back see if it's better, if not, go back to forgetting it.

Your causing more damage than your trying to fix.