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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh yeah, totally. You still can't have AP2 though, because that will mess up the external balance a bit. There's a reason why GW changed all the power weapons to be AP3

Well the Contemptor dread has a hard and fast limit of AP3 with the MoT.

Ok then, AP3 for all inferno bolt weapons seems to be norm.

Alright so now the only AP2 or better inferno weapon is the krak/flakk missile, and it's mainly there just to throw the weapon a bone.

Yeah, I can live with that. It only has one shot, so it won't be as ridiculous as AP2 HB and ACs.

AP2 on Flakk missiles is there because as Flakk missiles are right now they're not very good, even if they penetrate a flier they only have a small chance of killing it. With a +1 on the damage chart you won't have to pray quite as hard to Tzeentch for that explodes result.

 Kain wrote:
AP2 on Flakk missiles is there because as Flakk missiles are right now they're not very good, even if they penetrate a flier they only have a small chance of killing it. With a +1 on the damage chart you won't have to pray quite as hard to Tzeentch for that explodes result.

That seems fair to me.

So Heavy Bolters and Autocannons become AP3 and Krak +Flakk missiles become AP2.

With that, I'd cost Rubric Havocs (with S+P, 4+ invul save, VotLW and inferno ammunition) at about 22 points per model. Yes this is currently less than the traditional Thousand Son. However the traditional Thousand Son is terrible. The reason they're still costed a fair amount is because the weapons they can get are pretty damn powerful with inferno ammunition.

I'd also recommend giving them an Aspiring Sorcerer standard, and the Aspiring Sorcerer would be 37 points. (just for a nice round number )

Hence, a generic Rubric Havoc unit would be:

1 Sorcerer (37 pts)
4 Rubrics (88 pts)
Total Cost: 125 points

May add up to 5 extra, and can take the generic weaponry like Heavy Bolter, Autocannon etc etc

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Kain wrote:
AP2 on Flakk missiles is there because as Flakk missiles are right now they're not very good, even if they penetrate a flier they only have a small chance of killing it. With a +1 on the damage chart you won't have to pray quite as hard to Tzeentch for that explodes result.

That seems fair to me.

So Heavy Bolters and Autocannons become AP3 and Krak +Flakk missiles become AP2.

With that, I'd cost Rubric Havocs (with S+P, 4+ invul save, VotLW and inferno ammunition) at about 22 points per model. Yes this is currently less than the traditional Thousand Son. However the traditional Thousand Son is terrible. The reason they're still costed a fair amount is because the weapons they can get are pretty damn powerful with inferno ammunition.

I'd also recommend giving them an Aspiring Sorcerer standard, and the Aspiring Sorcerer would be 37 points. (just for a nice round number )

Hence, a generic Rubric Havoc unit would be:

1 Sorcerer (37 pts)
4 Rubrics (88 pts)
Total Cost: 125 points

May add up to 5 extra, and can take the generic weaponry like Heavy Bolter, Autocannon etc etc

Right, seems good.

I think these are ready for a bit of playtesting on Vassal.

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Kain wrote:
AP2 on Flakk missiles is there because as Flakk missiles are right now they're not very good, even if they penetrate a flier they only have a small chance of killing it. With a +1 on the damage chart you won't have to pray quite as hard to Tzeentch for that explodes result.

That seems fair to me.

So Heavy Bolters and Autocannons become AP3 and Krak +Flakk missiles become AP2.

With that, I'd cost Rubric Havocs (with S+P, 4+ invul save, VotLW and inferno ammunition) at about 22 points per model. Yes this is currently less than the traditional Thousand Son. However the traditional Thousand Son is terrible. The reason they're still costed a fair amount is because the weapons they can get are pretty damn powerful with inferno ammunition.

I'd also recommend giving them an Aspiring Sorcerer standard, and the Aspiring Sorcerer would be 37 points. (just for a nice round number )

Hence, a generic Rubric Havoc unit would be:

1 Sorcerer (37 pts)
4 Rubrics (88 pts)
Total Cost: 125 points

May add up to 5 extra, and can take the generic weaponry like Heavy Bolter, Autocannon etc etc

That seems ok. What are the prices for the weapons though?
Should the second discipline be free, or should there be a cost?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Kain wrote:
AP2 on Flakk missiles is there because as Flakk missiles are right now they're not very good, even if they penetrate a flier they only have a small chance of killing it. With a +1 on the damage chart you won't have to pray quite as hard to Tzeentch for that explodes result.

That seems fair to me.

So Heavy Bolters and Autocannons become AP3 and Krak +Flakk missiles become AP2.

With that, I'd cost Rubric Havocs (with S+P, 4+ invul save, VotLW and inferno ammunition) at about 22 points per model. Yes this is currently less than the traditional Thousand Son. However the traditional Thousand Son is terrible. The reason they're still costed a fair amount is because the weapons they can get are pretty damn powerful with inferno ammunition.

I'd also recommend giving them an Aspiring Sorcerer standard, and the Aspiring Sorcerer would be 37 points. (just for a nice round number )

Hence, a generic Rubric Havoc unit would be:

1 Sorcerer (37 pts)
4 Rubrics (88 pts)
Total Cost: 125 points

May add up to 5 extra, and can take the generic weaponry like Heavy Bolter, Autocannon etc etc

That seems ok. What are the prices for the weapons though?
Should the second discipline be free, or should there be a cost?

Honestly I don't see a huge need to price the weapons any differently for the most part since it just makes it more messy. A basic unit of 5 Rubric Havocs with 4x Autocannons would be 165 points, which is 50 more points than a unit of normal Havocs.

That being said, this unit could maybe afford to have its Rubric's cost increased to about 25 only because their weapons become so much stronger.

Ok, seems fair. It's not the weapons that are getting the power boost anyway.

I've been using cult terminators with my buddies for a while. Even have point costs and everything. So far they feel like what they are; really really killy terminators. Only unit I haven't tried yet are the Noise Terminators, as they are the last ones I came up with, and I'm pretty hard set on never using slaaneshi units

Thousand Sons Terminators 150 Points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Unit Type Unit Composition
Thousand Son Terminator 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 10 2+/4++ Infantry 2 Thousand Sons Terminators
Aspiring Sorcerer 4 4 4 4 1 4 2 10 2+/4++ Infantry (Character) 1 Aspiring Sorcerer
Wargear:
• Terminator Armour
• Combi-Boltgun
• Power Weapon
• Force Weapon (Aspiring Sorcerer Only)
• Inferno Bolts
Special Rules:
• Champion of Chaos (Aspiring Sorcerer Only)
• Fearless
• Mark of Tzeench
• Psyker (Mastery Level 1) (Aspiring Sorcerer Only)
• Slow and Purposeful
• Veterans of the Long War
Options:
• May add up to Seven Thousand Sons Terminators 45 points/model
• The Aspiring Sorcerer may take a gift of mutation 10 points
• The Aspiring Sorcerer may take an additional Mastery Level for 15 points
• One model in the unit may take an icon of flame 15 points
• The Unit may take a Chaos Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (p. 103)


Berserker Terminators 125 Points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Unit Type Unit Composition
Berserker Terminator 5 4 4 4 1 4 2/3 10 2+/5++ Infantry 2 Berserker Terminators
Berserker Terminator Champion 5 4 4 4 1 4 3/4 10 2+/5++ Infantry (Character) 1 Berserker Terminator Champion
Wargear:
• Terminator Armour
• Combi-Boltgun
• Close Combat Weapon
• Power Weapon
Special Rules:
• Champion of Chaos (Berserker Terminator Champion Only)
• Fearless
• Furious Charge
• Mark of Khorne
• Veterans of the Long War
Options:
• May add up to seven Berserker Terminators 40 points/model
• Any Berserker Terminator may replace his power weapon with:
o Lightning Claw 3 pts/model
o Power Fist 7 pts/model
o Chainfist 12 pts/model
• Any Berserker Terminator may replace his Combi-Bolgun with:
o Combi-flamer, -melta, -plasma 5 pts/model
• Any Berserker Terminator may replace his Close Combat Weapon & Combi-Boltgun with:
o Lightning Claw 4 pts/model
o Power Fist 10 pts/model
o Chainfist 15 pts/model
• The Berserker Terminator Champion may take items from the Terminator Weapons section of the Wargear list
• The Berserker Terminator Champion may take a gift of mutation 10 points
• One model in the unit may take an icon of wrath 10 points
• The Unit may take a Chaos Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (p. 103)

Plague Terminators 140 Points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Unit Type Unit Composition
Plague Terminator 4 4 4 5 1 4 2 10 2+/5++ Infantry 2 Plague Terminators
Plague Terminator Champion 4 4 4 5 1 4 3 10 2+/5++ Infantry (Character) 1 Plague Terminator Champion
Wargear:
• Terminator Armour
• Combi-Boltgun
• Power Weapon
• Blight Grenades
Special Rules:
• Champion of Chaos (Plague Terminator Champion Only)
• Fearless
• Poisoned Close Combat Attacks (4+)
• Feel No Pain
• Mark of Nurgle
• Veterans of the Long War
Options:
• May add up to seven Plague Terminators 46 points/model
• Any Plague Terminator may replace his power weapon with:
o Lightning Claw 3 pts/model
o Power Fist 7 pts/model
o Chainfist 12 pts/model
• Any Berserker Termninator may replace his Combi-Bolgun with:
o Combi-flamer, -melta, -plasma 5 pts/model
• For every 5 models, one Plague Terminator may replace his Combi-Boltgun with one of the following:
o Heavy flamer 10 pts/model
o Reaper autocannon 25 pts/model
• The Plague Terminator Champion may take items from the Terminator Weapons section of the Wargear list
• The Plague Terminator Champion may take a gift of mutation 10 points
• One model in the unit may take an icon of despair 10 points
• The Unit may take a Chaos Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (p. 103)

Noise Terminators 130 Points
WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Unit Type Unit Composition
Noise Terminator 4 4 4 4 1 5 2 10 2+/5++ Infantry 2 Noise Terminators
Noise Terminator Champion 4 4 4 4 1 5 3 10 2+/5++ Infantry (Character) 1 Noise Terminator Champion
Wargear:
• Terminator Armour
• Combi-Boltgun
• Power Weapon
Special Rules:
• Champion of Chaos (Noise Terminator Champion Only)
• Fearless
• Mark of Slaanesh
• Veterans of the Long War
Options:
• May add up to seven Noise Terminators 42 points/model
• Any Noise Terminator may replace his power weapon with:
o Lightning Claw 3 pts/model
o Power Fist 7 pts/model
o Chainfist 12 pts/model
• Any Noise Termninator may replace his Combi-Bolgun with:
o Combi-flamer, -melta, -plasma 5 pts/model
o Sonic Blaster 8 pts/model
• For every 5 models, one Noise Terminator may replace his Combi-Boltgun with one of the following:
o Blastmaster 35 pts/model
• The Noise Terminator Champion may take items from the Terminator Weapons section of the Wargear list
• The Noise Terminator Champion may take a gift of mutation 10 points
• One model in the unit may take an icon of excess 40 points
• The Unit may take a Chaos Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (p. 103)

I hope those aren't per model costs.

 StarHunter25 wrote:
I've been using cult terminators with my buddies for a while. Even have point costs and everything. So far they feel like what they are; really really killy terminators. Only unit I haven't tried yet are the Noise Terminators, as they are the last ones I came up with, and I'm pretty hard set on never using slaaneshi units

Once again Nurgle Terminators are way better than any of the Terminators.

T5 2+ save 5+ FNP for 46 points? That's not even remotely balanced. Meanwhile the Thousand Son Terminators are horrifyingly bad.

For Cult Terminators I would do as follows. They lose the option for combiweapons. There has to be a tradeoff beyond points and you can't have the Undivided not get anything for being undivided.


Thousand Sons Terminators. 36 pts
4++ inv save.
Combibolters are AP3.
HeavyFlamer is AP3.
Aspiring Sorceror is 2W. 60pts
May take a Familiar for 15 pts.
Master of the Warp- All psykers with Mark of Tzeentch know 1 more spell than their Mastery Level. Also may take from Biomancy,Divination,Tzeentch, and Telepathy. (I feel this is a fair tradeoff given that you lose combiweapons so your Sorcerors have to pick up the slack. You still have to take a Tzeentch power but now you can take an extra power to help as well)

Nurgle Terminators 50pts
FnP 5+ T5
All attacks shooting/CC are poisoned 4+
Come with defensive grenades.

Noise Marine Terminators 38pts
+1 Ini
May add 1 Blastmaster per 5 models for 30 pts.
May exhange combibolter for SonicBlaster for +6 points.
Champion may take a Doom Siren for 15 pts.

Berzerker Terminators 40pts
+1 Attack +1 WS
May replace combibolter for powerweapon of same type as the model has in the other hand (free)
Favoured by Khorne- All succesful OverWatch shots must be rerolled.

What do you guys think?

Tzeentch termis should get a 3++ as their power armor counterparts get a 4++.

I also think Ahriman should get Terminator armor to match Typhus', it'd mitigate some of his awfulness.

Also noise marine sonic blasters definitely should be at least twin linked as should blastmasters.

What do you think of what I have?

I like what you have but it all comes down to points. I agree with Ahriman and Terminator armor but I think a better way to save him would be to just give him Artificier Armor.

I disagree on the 3++ for Tson Termies and TL on the noise marines as well. 3++ doesnt really help the Tsons, they die more from weight of fire than they do from AP2/1. Perhaps a primaris Psychic power that lets you reroll 1s would be a better solution. And fits with the Tzeentch theme.

I think TL on noise marines would be bad because then for a measly 44 points you have a Relentless model with 3 str 4 ap5 ignore cover attacks at 24 inches. That's already very good, TL would make them auto takes in my opinion. Now if you want to give them the option for +5 points to take it then thats another matter.

You also have to keep in mind that for all the extra offensive power their price goes up but not their survivability.

demontalons wrote:
I like what you have but it all comes down to points. I agree with Ahriman and Terminator armor but I think a better way to save him would be to just give him Artificier Armor.

I disagree on the 3++ for Tson Termies and TL on the noise marines as well. 3++ doesnt really help the Tsons, they die more from weight of fire than they do from AP2/1. Perhaps a primaris Psychic power that lets you reroll 1s would be a better solution. And fits with the Tzeentch theme.

I think TL on noise marines would be bad because then for a measly 44 points you have a Relentless model with 3 str 4 ap5 ignore cover attacks at 24 inches. That's already very good, TL would make them auto takes in my opinion. Now if you want to give them the option for +5 points to take it then thats another matter.

You also have to keep in mind that for all the extra offensive power their price goes up but not their survivability.

Virtually all chaos termi weapons are twinlinked, and a sonic blaster isn't really bigger than a standard bolter.

True, Im not saying its a bad idea per se, just that is it needed? And should it be standard or as an addon they buy?

demontalons wrote:
True, Im not saying its a bad idea per se, just that is it needed? And should it be standard or as an addon they buy?

Well, it looks better when doubled up on a termi's arm.

Why not give the TS Termis the option to buy SoC for about 5-10 ppm? They could really need some options and would make a really tough cc-unit with the downside of only having access to stock power weapons.

 Shadox wrote:
Why not give the TS Termis the option to buy SoC for about 5-10 ppm? They could really need some options and would make a really tough cc-unit with the downside of only having access to stock power weapons.

Hrmm...I think that'll be worth going over.

Whoa! Good day Kain. Just wanted to drop in and saw wow. Sadly, I don't think I can help that much (balancing models is always so difficult especially models such as TS. An invuln of 4++ is great but rarely will that be needed or even useful meaning a majority of the time you are paying a ton for something that they will never have to worry about. Also doesn't help cover saves give 4 and 5s (and where I play maintly 4s). I came here to wish you luck and I'll try to help if I possibly can.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Whoa! Good day Kain. Just wanted to drop in and saw wow. Sadly, I don't think I can help that much (balancing models is always so difficult especially models such as TS. An invuln of 4++ is great but rarely will that be needed or even useful meaning a majority of the time you are paying a ton for something that they will never have to worry about. Also doesn't help cover saves give 4 and 5s (and where I play maintly 4s). I came here to wish you luck and I'll try to help if I possibly can.

Thanks for the offer, I'll make sure to credit you and the others once the final thing is ready.

As you can see we still got plenty of things in need of cult units.

Maybe we need to take a step back and look at where the units are coming from Themaltically.

Tsons- Dust doing whatever the Sorcerors tell them. No real god allegiance, unless that particular sorceror is heavily into Tzeentch (and from the fluff some are and some arent)

Nurgle-Spread Plague to gain favor of Nurgle

Slaanesh-In it for themselves and to feel as much pleasure as possible, which happens to gain favor of Slaanesh at same time.

Khorne- Blood for the Bloodgod SKulls for the SkullTHrone sums it up I think.

So with Tsons the Terminators arent so much higher ranked or more devout versions than the PA troops it just happens that they were in terminator armor when the Rubric happened. That's why I think a 4++ is fine, and as Star Trotter said you wont need a 3++ all that often, but you will have to pay for it. Theyre obviously getting ap3 combibolters. The real problem is the Sorcerors cost and his ability to cast spells. Im thinking a primaris where they reroll invulnerables OR maybe just all 1s. This would be for both Terms and PA troops. Given the cost we're paying per troop I don't think this would put them into astronomical levels of power. Give them AP3 HeavyFlamers as well for terms and I think that's all they need.
Then you have a hard hitting unit that with the help of the Sorceror has some staying power. Which is really all you want in a Terminator unit.

For Nurgle, again defensive grenades for the shrunken heads, poison 4+ for bolters and CC. 5+ FnP and T5. Has good staying power and hits back decently, very good against MCs with their poison.

Slaanesh- 1+ initiative and NoiseWeapons, maybe a once per game they take a drug that give D3 random ability. Like +1A +1T or FnP for a turn.

Khorne- WS5, +1A and if they want they can replace their combibolter for free and get another +1A. A special rule to mitigate OW and you're good.

demontalons wrote:
Maybe we need to take a step back and look at where the units are coming from Themaltically.

Tsons- Dust doing whatever the Sorcerors tell them. No real god allegiance, unless that particular sorceror is heavily into Tzeentch (and from the fluff some are and some arent)

Nurgle-Spread Plague to gain favor of Nurgle

Slaanesh-In it for themselves and to feel as much pleasure as possible, which happens to gain favor of Slaanesh at same time.

Khorne- Blood for the Bloodgod SKulls for the SkullTHrone sums it up I think.

So with Tsons the Terminators arent so much higher ranked or more devout versions than the PA troops it just happens that they were in terminator armor when the Rubric happened. That's why I think a 4++ is fine, and as Star Trotter said you wont need a 3++ all that often, but you will have to pay for it. Theyre obviously getting ap3 combibolters. The real problem is the Sorcerors cost and his ability to cast spells. Im thinking a primaris where they reroll invulnerables OR maybe just all 1s. This would be for both Terms and PA troops. Given the cost we're paying per troop I don't think this would put them into astronomical levels of power. Give them AP3 HeavyFlamers as well for terms and I think that's all they need.
Then you have a hard hitting unit that with the help of the Sorceror has some staying power. Which is really all you want in a Terminator unit.

For Nurgle, again defensive grenades for the shrunken heads, poison 4+ for bolters and CC. 5+ FnP and T5. Has good staying power and hits back decently, very good against MCs with their poison.

Slaanesh- 1+ initiative and NoiseWeapons, maybe a once per game they take a drug that give D3 random ability. Like +1A +1T or FnP for a turn.

Khorne- WS5, +1A and if they want they can replace their combibolter for free and get another +1A. A special rule to mitigate OW and you're good.

While good ideas, granting the termis something they already can from an Icon (in the case of Slaanesh) seems a tad redundant. And the idea for Nurgle is not just poison for bolters, but all weapons with physical ammunition as you can stuff nurgle's rot in them too.

As for the Tsons, I'm rather fond of my inferno autocannons and inferno-combiflamers. Shall we keep those?

Khorne I think is fairly well set as he is, and giving them OW mitigation would kind of step on the Noise Raptor's toes.

Inferno reapers may be ok if you pay a reasonable price for them but AP3 Combi weapons can render even a black tide useless with just two deepstricking units with some luck on the scatter rolls. I really would leave the Combis to undivided Termis.

I'm aware that Plague Marines are already the best cult but why not give them the option to take a Bile Thrower like you can get in Dawn of War 2? Poisoned and probably roll for AP like the Liquifier and if that is too much make it an upgrade for the Champion only.

 Shadox wrote:
Inferno reapers may be ok if you pay a reasonable price for them but AP3 Combi weapons can render even a black tide useless with just two deepstricking units with some luck on the scatter rolls. I really would leave the Combis to undivided Termis.

I'm aware that Plague Marines are already the best cult but why not give them the option to take a Bile Thrower like you can get in Dawn of War 2? Poisoned and probably roll for AP like the Liquifier and if that is too much make it an upgrade for the Champion only.

Two AP3 heavy flamers followed up by a barrage of AP3 rapid fire bolters can already more or less gut a black templar horde even with good spacing.

In any case, only plague termis get unrestricted combi-weapons, the only thing Rubric termis can get are flamers for their bolters.

 Kain wrote:

 Shadox wrote:
Inferno reapers may be ok if you pay a reasonable price for them but AP3 Combi weapons can render even a black tide useless with just two deepstricking units with some luck on the scatter rolls. I really would leave the Combis to undivided Termis.

I'm aware that Plague Marines are already the best cult but why not give them the option to take a Bile Thrower like you can get in Dawn of War 2? Poisoned and probably roll for AP like the Liquifier and if that is too much make it an upgrade for the Champion only.

Two AP3 heavy flamers followed up by a barrage of AP3 rapid fire bolters can already more or less gut a black templar horde even with good spacing.

In any case, only plague termis get unrestricted combi-weapons, the only thing Rubric termis can get are flamers for their bolters.

I didn't really thought about the AP3 on the Bolters
But nevertheless I think they are fine without Combi Flamers, but this should probably be decided by playtesting.