Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Out here in Cali its VERY difficult to sway 40k players to even try WM/H due to the financial investment in the game they've come to love. Also, I feel as a WM/H player that our community gets a bad wrap. I often hear 40k players describe WM/H players are "overly-competitive" and that the players clearly only play top tier lists all the time and they all curb stomp noobs and that PP supports this mind-set "just look at page 5!"

I'm here to tell you that all of that is untrue. The vast majority of players are casual gamers who enjoy PP's tight rule set which eleviates rules disputes and lets them focus on play. Also, if you read Page 5, yes it says play like you have a pair, but it also says Page 5 is NEVER an excuse to be a douche. Play like you have a pair is simply a message to play offesively because the game rewards aggressive play, meaning not holding much back, going all out and getting the most from every activation, and not falling back when things are looking bad but to push hard to overcome your opponent. The number one rule is THIS IS A GAME SO HAVE FUN. Just like not every 40k player is a tool, not every WM/H player is one either. Sure there are asshats in every game, and you can simply choose to NOT play with them, but please give the community a chance. There are great players and the game is A LOT of fun!

Here is one piece of advise though: When you start playing WM/H, you will lose a LOT early on, and that is not due to douchey players. The game has a high learning curve and it takes a while before you get your feet under you as a player, and I feel that this can sometimes lead folks to believe a more experienced player is being ruthless or unfair. Its a part of the game and it requires you to let go of your ego during the learning period. Battle box games are the best to learn simply because they are fast and there is a lot less to worry about on the board. I've seen many players attempt to jump to higher point levels too quickly and they have a really hard time and struggle for much longer than necessary because of it.

All of the above has been my experience and as a player of both games, I can't recommend WM/H enough. Its a great game, great community, and a great company who are themselves players and lovers of the game.

What got me into Warmachine was hearing that the ruleset is so much clearer than 40k. We'd just got into 6th edition 40k and I was finding it immensely frustrating to play due to how convoluted and ambiguous the rules are, so we tried out Warmachine. I wasn't disappointed - you can see the difference just by looking at the Warmachine YMDC here, where the usual format is post 1: question, post 2: answer provided in full.

I also find it a much more cinematic game than 40k. That's a bit weird given the 40k rulebook blathers on and on about forging a narrative and stuff like that, but at the end of the day 40k doesn't represent the events of the background very well in the game and almost all of it comes down to "I move and shoot at the guy." In Warmachine, you have a huge cast of interesting and very powerful wizards rolling around the table with unique spell sets and configurations of special rules and a posse of supporting characters and units that all have their own unique and meaningful stats and special rules and abilities. When it comes to representing the game world on the table, all of that does a way better job than "oh, my termagant can't shoot because her head is modeled too low to see over that small wall."

 hivemind66 wrote:
Out here in Cali its VERY difficult to sway 40k players to even try WM/H due to the financial investment in the game they've come to love. Also, I feel as a WM/H player that our community gets a bad wrap. I often hear 40k players describe WM/H players are "overly-competitive" and that the players clearly only play top tier lists all the time and they all curb stomp noobs and that PP supports this mind-set "just look at page 5!"

I'm here to tell you that all of that is untrue. The vast majority of players are casual gamers who enjoy PP's tight rule set which eleviates rules disputes and lets them focus on play. Also, if you read Page 5, yes it says play like you have a pair, but it also says Page 5 is NEVER an excuse to be a douche. Play like you have a pair is simply a message to play offesively because the game rewards aggressive play, meaning not holding much back, going all out and getting the most from every activation, and not falling back when things are looking bad but to push hard to overcome your opponent. The number one rule is THIS IS A GAME SO HAVE FUN. Just like not every 40k player is a tool, not every WM/H player is one either. Sure there are asshats in every game, and you can simply choose to NOT play with them, but please give the community a chance. There are great players and the game is A LOT of fun!

Page 5 is a good sentiment (try your best / be a good sport, win or lose) wrapped up in misleading and vaguely insulting verbiage. "Play like you have a pair" is remarkably dumb and, in my experience so far, completely misses the point of the game. At a word, the name of the game in Warmachine is precision. Every time I've seen someone say, "page 5 play like you have a pair yolo" and do something "aggressive", they've died. Horribly. Because Warmachine isn't a game about aggression, it's a game about precision, and the game gives you more than enough rope to hang yourself if you try to be overaggressive.

Does aggression come into play? Sure, because as a general rule in a game (or life, huh) it's suboptimal to have resources sitting around doing nothing when they could be doing something. I don't think you'd call chess "aggressive," though, even though it's aggressive in much the same way as Warmachine. I feel it's inaccurate billing, and I'm glad I didn't really run into it much because it might have put me off the game, wrongly, if I'd known about it in advance.

Oh, and I want to agree with hivemind66's comments about newbies. This might sound crazy but it's much easier to play a game with a stranger when you're both playing by the same rules! You can play a relaxed game of Warmachine fine, because the rules are clear enough to allow you to do so easily. It's fun! A lot more fun than digging through a massive tome to figure out how to play a special rule of a "beer & pretzels game."

O another BIG difference between the games is 40k has you rolling on 100 different charts, half of which seem to be before the game even starts. It slows down the game pace big time.

Although I might be joining the bandwagon here I guess, to me I think Warmachine/ Hordes is a better game compared to 40k. This is because it has a tight ruleset, which makes it easy for both casual and tournament play. Also this combined with a low model count, and cheaper cost to get into the game/ start a new army make a game relatively quick on a Battlebox/ 15 pts level. Although some may complain how you cannot make your own warnoun or customize your outkit with models, I do not think Warmachine/Hordes really needs it since how it is designed.

Now it is a fact you are mostly going to lose a LOT when you are starting out, but it is based on the learning curve and challenge it gives the beginner, but I think it is a good challenge (my opinion on it, so I could be subjective with this).

And this is from coming from playing 5 years of 40k/ Fantasy about, and now I started to see how imbalanced the game is and so on. Also it does not help a bit how GW seems to raise the price to the point almost no-one but the well-off could play a decent list and kind of screw over the customer (although PP may.

Not trying to start a flame war, but this is how I feel about the situation. :/

 22cthulu wrote:
In Warmachine it's 90% how you play your models 10% what models you have.

In 40k it's 90% what models you have 10% how you play your models.

If you prefer having the biggest shiniest newest models 40k is better. If you prefer the tactical aspect of the game Warmachine is better.

This

I am a 40k player interested in warmahordes so this thread was nice to stumble upon. One thing I enjoy about 40k is rolling lots of dice and feeling like I have lots of my army men running around the board. I don't use much heavy armour, mostly just footmen. I also enjoy the backgrounds and models that games workshop has to offer even though they're rediculously priced.

One thing that looks cool about warmahordes is that the model you spent the last few weeks painting actually makes a difference in the game. Sometimes I'll spend forever on a marine for him to die before he gets to do anything.

But alas, I think it would be fun to be able to switch back and forth.

yukondal wrote:

But alas, I think it would be fun to be able to switch back and forth.

Nothing is stopping you, I switch back and forth (and with Infinity as well), it just takes longer to save up for the forces you wish to field. It's good to have variety.

^ word.

Play both.

Though I stopped playing 40K shortly after my first game of Warmachine you can still do both.

And a lot of my Templar bits work really nicely for my Menoth.

Warhammer has always had neat models for me (Tau for 40K, Skaven for FB). That said, I am not a big modelling person (awful eyesight and such tend to do that). So I stick to WM/H for the game.

That said, playing other games isn't prevented by that. I have tried Infinity and want to play the upcoming Arena Rex. Locals here play Warhammer, Infinity, Dust, and others about. I'm in the boat that loves games with good gamey bits, but different strokes will be the big factor I think in determining where your money goes.

And stuff.

I like WM/H for the tactical aspect of the game, but I like 40k for the background.

One other important factor: The dice.

In WarmaHordes, the 2d6 (sometimes 3, 4, or *gasp* 5!) mechanic gives a a better handle on the randomness/reliability.

40k by contrast now relies too much, IMHO, on random rolls. I swear, playing against a Chaos Daemon army is like this:
roll dice and consult multiple tables for 2.5 hours.

I think the coolest part about having strict rules like Warmahordes does, is that it lets you have really interesting rules.
Overtake for example is a mechanic often seen in WMH (kill a model, get to advance and make an attack). Yet if you tried to have the same thing in 40k, the game would just break. Or at least, the rule would be 3 paragraphs long with 3 paragraphs of FAQ's, instead of a single sentence.

I think that WMH is more about list building than 40k though: in 40k, you eliminate the 'bad' models from your codex and spam whichever models are left until you reach your points limit. WMH actively discourages spamming of more than 1 of each beast due to Animus abilities; and because nearly all units are 'good' you really need to work out which ones synergise well with the other models you already have and your caster.

TechMarine1 wrote:
I like WM/H for the tactical aspect of the game, but I like 40k for the background.

Same here, but these days I get the 40k lore & background from the RPG books.

Warmachine seems to cost less , even for a good army , then w40k does. On the other hand w40k you can get much easier carried by the list and even a bad or weak army can be carried by stats alone [marines mostly] , in warmachine you just get killed without a good army.I know it from personal expiriance of last month. I was forced to leave w40k and jump to warmachines , I knew that my collection is way off a perfect , but I though that using tactics and maybe some luck I could at least draw from time to time. Boy was I wrong , in w40k If I took a marines army and allied with orcs [but not the good units] , I could still have some fun. In warmachine my cygnar just gets killed turn 2 or turn one with assasination or scenario win. If I get realy luck , I get to run away for 3-4 turns sacrificing my whole army and then die . WM seems to be very pre made and focused on certain combinations of units . It doesn't mean tha w40k isn't , it is too. But in w40k you can play those 3-4 turns with a bad army . With wm you lose ultra fast and after 2-3 games no one wants to play against you anymore , because your weak army isn't a challange .

How are you constantly losing to T1 assassination and scenario wins? I'm actually really interested, I can only think of a few cases that is possible (the assassination at least) and even then it requires you using every trick you have to throw your caster out the front as far as you can

 motyak wrote:
How are you constantly losing to T1 assassination and scenario wins? I'm actually really interested, I can only think of a few cases that is possible (the assassination at least) and even then it requires you using every trick you have to throw your caster out the front as far as you can

Scenario victory is literally impossible on turn 1. Scenarios don't even start scoring until the bottom of the 2nd round and none allow the scoring of 5pts in a single turn. The fastest you can possibly lose to scenario is at the top of 3. That's if you stay in your DZ and contest nothing.

I suppose it is very easy to lose at WM when you're playing with rules that allow scenario victories turn 1 (any fast AD forces would do it). It would also be very easy to lose when playing with rules that allow your opponent to take out a leafblower and remove any models that can knock over with it from play as a "Super Tornado Attack". I'm not really sure either of those make any particularly meaningful statements about WM/H as a game though.

Makumba wrote:
Warmachine seems to cost less , even for a good army , then w40k does. On the other hand w40k you can get much easier carried by the list and even a bad or weak army can be carried by stats alone [marines mostly] , in warmachine you just get killed without a good army.I know it from personal expiriance of last month. I was forced to leave w40k and jump to warmachines , I knew that my collection is way off a perfect , but I though that using tactics and maybe some luck I could at least draw from time to time. Boy was I wrong , in w40k If I took a marines army and allied with orcs [but not the good units] , I could still have some fun. In warmachine my cygnar just gets killed turn 2 or turn one with assasination or scenario win. If I get realy luck , I get to run away for 3-4 turns sacrificing my whole army and then die . WM seems to be very pre made and focused on certain combinations of units . It doesn't mean tha w40k isn't , it is too. But in w40k you can play those 3-4 turns with a bad army . With wm you lose ultra fast and after 2-3 games no one wants to play against you anymore , because your weak army isn't a challange .

Sounds like you're using your pieces incorrectly for a start. you open yourself up for a turn 2 or turn 1 assassination. How? then you say how you run away by sacrificing everything before dying. Cygnar is a nasty army, with plenty options available and tricks up their sleaves - they've no reason to be ending up in the situation as described above - maybe you should look for some advice and tactics in getting the most out of what you have? What stuff do you field, and who do you go up against?

you say its " a very pre-made and focused on certain combinations of units. " I think, whilst partially right, this also completely misses the mark. Warmachine is about synnergy. Its not what you take. Its what you take alongside it. You cant just have a hodge-podge of random units and expect to pull out a win through "luck". the game is hugely about tactics, but tactics feed off of good synnergies, and if all you have is a random collection of things, the tactics open to you will both be limited, and non optimal. Essentially, how can you pull off clever tactics when the pieces you have dont lend themselves to it? you cant play an assault army with tau, can you? its the same thing with warmachine. look to the synnergies and build your game from that. And I will reinforce the point here: there is no "one way" to play. there is no "one ring", no master plan, no "list to rule them all". there is no one "pre-set" way of play. combos and synnergies are huge in this game, but here's the thing: there is no "one" synnergy. everything can be built into a game winning strategy.

maybe you should look for some advice and tactics in getting the most out of what you have?

All the tactics say . Get stormwall , get 13 , get gunmages mounter or not , get haley . That doesn't help me at all.
But the thing is the shop here had only trenchers , trencher chainguns, ironclads ,
shieldwalls x2 which I bought , forgeguard which I again bought, cainx2 out of which I bought the non epic one . he is the one that does the runing around and then dieing . a hammersmith which I bought , stormguard but only in blisters so useless . 2 chargers which I bought with nemo. He is the fast dieing one. Also 3 out of 4 my opponents play horde so lot of his stuff doesn't work . Now I knew from the start that my army is going to be weaker then my friends They had their armies bought from US , so weren't limited by what the store has and they could pick any army they want . I had to pick cygnar , because it was the only faction they dont play and which had casters sold at the store .

As for how I lose turn with scenarios. My khadro playing friend plays two lists against me one with a horde of infantry that kills my casters with assasination using those ax dudes , snipers and aoe dmg and another one where he uses 2 jacks one twice the size of my ironclad with 2 bombardas that fires after runing and another twice the size of the 2 bombarda one . If I don't hide I eat 3 boosted and feated aoe shots on my cain or nemo . if I hide behind jacks or terrain I get only shot by the huge jack. Against the legion play I lose because his army is three times faster then my . Stuff flies or runs like crazy , ingores woods , ignores terrain .He never plays the same list ,as he bought all the models that are sold for legion right now.

If I even try to get anywhere near objectives with my caster and he goes second I die turn 1 , turn 2 if he starts.
Against the skorn player I have problems with dealing with his two bronzbacks parking on objectives or contesting stuff . If my stuff gets close it dies.

My last friend plays cryx . His army is faster , stealthed , his infantry hits harder then my jacks . Most of the games I played against his looked like this . He runs in to objective zone , now my option is to try to charge and use up my focus and die next turn from assasination or lose jacks that charged . Or let him win turn 2 from scenario points , if I don't get close.

Now I know my friends bought better armies , I also know that my army isn't the most optimal build in warmachine . Far from it . But in w40k , if someone makes a marine army based on tacticals without flyers and ally , he can still have a game that takes up 4-5 turns . He can hope for good rolls or bad opponent rolls , hope that stats will help him survive. In warmachine if you don't have the good stuff , you may as well not be playing . By the way I don't think that this is a bad thing , pre made armies can be fun too .
I went yestarday to a noob jack only tournament . I hoped to learn stuff , maybe see what cygnar players use and ask if people have cygnar to sell. My first opponent was a cygnar list haley with two huge jacks , second opponent was a druid army with everything with stealth and third was my friend with his all flying legion . I played nemo with ironclad , hammer smith and charger and got owned hard.

What else were you fielding? That Haley list you're describing is 33 points, while yours is 13...

i have played a crazy more number of games of 40k than i have WMH but even in the like 4 games ive played ive noticed two major differences that i like.

1) There really is no sense of hopelessness. Because the game is less random due to the 2D6 system and is heavily more tactic based than list based, its pretty hard to get that "Well, im boned" feeling. Usually when i get that in 40k its true and i lose. Im 50-50 in WMH, and all 4 games i had that feeling i was boned but pulled something out of my arse to win (Borka passing a Tough test being dumb luck but good example lol)

2) Less confusing....by a LONG SHOT. 40k theres always WTF? rules you never encounter for months at a time...WMH for the most part is pretty straight forward. Ive played against 3 races and all i needed to know was what the spell they were casting did, but all the effects they listed i knew what it was. None of this "And they shall know no rules" bullcrap. With the exception of Mulg's attunment with Doomshaper, everything ive read so far was crystal clear to me...40k took me a couple months to even get a grasp lol

Makumba wrote:

All the tactics say . Get stormwall , get 13 , get gunmages mounter or not , get haley . That doesn't help me at all.

But the thing is the shop here had only trenchers , trencher chainguns, ironclads ,

Ironclads are fantastic, efficient machines.

Trenchers are overcosted for what they do, and must be played carefully. I
don't think you ever make your points back with those guys so you have to
play them to deny your opponent points by judicious use of smoke walls. Try
presenting only three at a time and hiding your good stuff behind an advancing
wall of smoke. Unless they're playing Legion or have a rule called hunter,
you'll be safe from conventional ranged attacks and charges. Sure, the
trenchers will take it on the chin, but hopefully your counterstrike will be
well worth it.

shieldwalls x2 which I bought ,

I don't know what this is.

forgeguard which I again bought, cainx2 out of which I bought the non epic one . he is the one that does the runing around and then dieing .

Lieutenant Caine is amazing. He's also extremely fragile. You advance
him, shoot or feat, and then teleport safely away. Sometimes, if you're
feeling ballsy, you cast the Thunderstrike.

If your group is using 'beast or 'jack heavy lists, Caine is a lot more
difficult to use. Then you're just hoping he gives you a firelane to just
pump bullets into their caster until they're dead. His epic version Captain
Caine has the tools to pick apart high armor. Lieutenant Caine needs
a more specialized list to deal with that.

a hammersmith which I bought ,

Try this with pNemo. Locomotion, 5 focus, kill something big.

stormguard but only in blisters so useless . 2 chargers which I bought with nemo. He is the fast dieing one.

Which Nemo is this? Two chargers should be fantastic with Epic
Nemo. His feat gives them three focus and they blast things to pieces.
Regular Nemo will rely more on the Hammersmith and IRonclad. He
should probably have an arc node, too and other things that work well
with his spell list.

Also 3 out of 4 my opponents play horde so lot of his stuff doesn't work . Now I knew from the start that my army is going to be weaker then my friends They had their armies bought from US , so weren't limited by what the store has and they could pick any army they want . I had to pick cygnar , because it was the only faction they dont play and which had casters sold at the store .

My khadro playing friend plays two lists against me one with a horde of infantry that kills my casters with assasination using those ax dudes , snipers and aoe dmg

Caine can clear this. Just mind those AOEs. If his caster is Butcher though,
then you'll need to keep your hmamersmith alive long enough to finish the job.

and another one where he uses 2 jacks one twice the size of my ironclad with 2 bombardas that fires after runing and another twice the size of the 2 bombarda one . If I don't hide I eat 3 boosted and feated aoe shots on my cain or nemo .

Sounds like Butcher if the feat adds damage.

Against the legion play I lose because his army is three times faster then my . Stuff flies or runs like crazy , ingores woods , ignores terrain .He never plays the same list ,as he bought all the models that are sold for legion right now.

I have a hard time against legion.

If I even try to get anywhere near objectives with my caster and he goes second I die turn 1 , turn 2 if he starts.
Against the skorn player I have problems with dealing with his two bronzbacks parking on objectives or contesting stuff . If my stuff gets close it dies.

Remember, counter slam only works once per turn or will not work if the 'beast is engaged. Run
with your infantry and follow up with the 'jacks.

My last friend plays cryx . His army is faster , stealthed , his infantry hits harder then my jacks . Most of the games I played against his looked like this . He runs in to objective zone , now my option is to try to charge and use up my focus and die next turn from assasination or lose jacks that charged . Or let him win turn 2 from scenario points , if I don't get close.

Infantry screen.

Now I know my friends bought better armies , I also kno


w that my army isn't the most optimal build in warmachine . Far from it . But in w40k , if someone makes a marine army based on tacticals without flyers and ally , he can still have a game that takes up 4-5 turns . He can hope for good rolls or bad opponent rolls , hope that stats will help him survive. In warmachine if you don't have the good stuff , you may as well not be playing .

Not true. It's not that you don't have the good stuff. You don't seem
to have very many stuff that will work well together AND you're getting
creamed by veteran players. THis is a bad combination.

For instance, you have Forge Guard. They are frightfully slow and
are mercenaries to boot. Therefore, they won't benefit from any faction
buffs. However, there are 'casters who can make them sing and there
are support pieces that will help them do their job. To me, this is the
list building component of warmachine. You bring what you can to make
x model work .

I went yestarday to a noob jack only tournament . I hoped to learn stuff , maybe see what cygnar players use and ask if people have cygnar to sell. My first opponent was a cygnar list haley with two huge jacks , second opponent was a druid army with everything with stealth and third was my friend with his all flying legion . I played nemo with ironclad , hammer smith and charger and got owned hard.

A 'jack only tournament often has a point value. What was it and what
were you fielding?

I stopped playing 40k right after my first game of warmahordes. The balance and synergy between the components of each army really drew me in. Games only take as long as they need to and the winner is, more often than not, the more tactful player. From my experiences, there isn't a ton of impact on the outcome due to randomness, which is preferable in any wargame.
EDIT: I play Circle (my main army), Legion, Khador and Menoth. All for about the same cost as my single 40k army.

Makumba wrote:

maybe you should look for some advice and tactics in getting the most out of what you have?

All the tactics say . Get stormwall , get 13 , get gunmages mounter or not , get haley . That doesn't help me at all.

mak i'm going to make a threat for you in a little bit to help you start stomping those friends of yours

I noticed that you said that your friend with Khador uses his Behemoth (the one with the bombards) to run and then shoot. This is against the rules. Once a model runs it then losses any additional actions barring a special rule on its card.
Also it sounds like your misplaying the Line of Sight rules. Reread the Line of sight rules again and notice that all models are based on volume and not the actual figure. Also note that LoS is not symetrical. So, just because you can see him doesn't mean that he can see you.
If you stand your caster behind 2 Jacks that are in Base to Base contact then there is no way for his Jacks to see you. And if you stay within 1" of them and behind them then he can't see you with his behemoth. If he can't see you then he can't shoot at you. He can then shoot at your Jacks and your caster may eat blast damage but he can't hit you directly.
Caine can put blur on himself and his defence goes up to 20. The Khador jacks have RATs of 5. Even using 3 dice he's going to miss a lot more than he hits. And then it's up to the scatter dice to see if he remains in the AoE.
If you're using eNemo then just keep force field up and that pretty much ends the blast damage problem. pNemo should be disrupting enemy jacks with his feat and you should have disruption field on your main melee jack.

Sorry for the wall of text but I hope this helps you.

shieldwalls x2 which I bought ,

dwarf dudes with guns and shields.

What else were you fielding? That Haley list you're describing is 33 points, while yours is 13...

2 chargers 2 ironclads 1 hammersmith. I don't own any other cygnar jacks .

If your group is using 'beast or 'jack heavy lists, Caine is a lot more
difficult to use. Then you're just hoping he gives you a firelane to just
pump bullets into their caster until they're dead. His epic version Captain
Caine has the tools to pick apart high armor. Lieutenant Caine needs
a more specialized list to deal with that.

the khador player uses infantry . I played one game against dudes that looked like jacks with the caster that lets them run through other units of the same type.all other games against infantry were with winterguard[I think that is how they are called] who run around with tough , def higher then cain , armor like jacks with tons of shoting of different kind and oddly enough not bad melee either.
The third infantry armies I got to play against were cryx . Tons of models some with stealth and everything very fast runing turn one to me or scoring zones. Trying to kill the infantry with cain doesn't seem to work so well , because if he doesn't kill them all he dies in melee and if he does kill them all there is still a good chance that the cryx caster is in range for an assasination .

Which Nemo is this? Two chargers should be fantastic with Epic
Nemo. His feat gives them three focus and they blast things to pieces.
Regular Nemo will rely more on the Hammersmith and IRonclad. He
should probably have an arc node, too and other things that work well
with his spell list.

a normal nemo. Arc nodes are only on lancers right?

Sounds like Butcher if the feat adds damage.

big guy with an ax on feat turn , both the jacks roll 4d6+half strengh which kills cain always and nemo sometimes. I could probably keep cain away , i if I wasn't for his short control range.

Not true. It's not that you don't have the good stuff. You don't seem
to have very many stuff that will work well together AND you're getting
creamed by veteran players

aside for the haley player[store owner] and one skorn player who I played 1 time in my life , all my games were against my friends , which play this game for 3 weeks .

A 'jack only tournament often has a point value. What was it and what
were you fielding?

35pts . I played with 2 chargers 2 ironclads and a hammer smith.

The Winterguard don't get any armour buffs that I know of. Unless there are some random spells from a caster which do that, but then they aren't getting any DEF buffs from spells, just Bob and Weave.

Makumba wrote:

What else were you fielding? That Haley list you're describing is 33 points, while yours is 13...

2 chargers 2 ironclads 1 hammersmith. I don't own any other cygnar jacks .

You're still only fielding 24 points then against his 33. I think I'm starting to see where your problem is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 motyak wrote:
The Winterguard don't get any armour buffs that I know of. Unless there are some random spells from a caster which do that, but then they aren't getting any DEF buffs from spells, just Bob and Weave.

They don't. The only armor buff Khador has access to is Harkevich's feat, which only works on 'Jacks.

I put gaming in terms of time spent playing and painting. I have a limited amount fo time to game, given a job, 2 kids and a wife and all the cool stuff associated with it.

I played 40k for almost 20 years, and picked up warmachine on a whim in 2008. Now I totally dropped 40k, and GW as a whole almost (still playing epic and BFG but GW is not related to these anymore). Warmahordes is just a better time investment for me, with cleaner rules and a more interactive experience.

Makumba wrote:

What else were you fielding? That Haley list you're describing is 33 points, while yours is 13...

2 chargers 2 ironclads 1 hammersmith. I don't own any other cygnar jacks

If you are trying to run 5 jacks with Haley then that is probably a major issue. Most casters in the game usually only want one or two jacks. Both Haleys are in that group.

My major issue early on in laying was I wanted to go jack heavy with casters who don't like going jack heavy.

Work on getting some infantry, especially infantry that needs minimum support, and I think your odds will go up plenty.


And also, you need to learn your stuff and your opponents. This game is very much about knowing how both sides work. Until you know what everything does you are going to lose. A lot. At the minimum read over battle college and the other army pages on the PP boards for their tacticas. They will tell you the weaknesses of their army if you let them. Especially right after a battle. It let's you read more about the models you just played and how to defeat them next time.

If you have the money/time then get some of the other army books and the starter sets. If you can build those into 35 point armies then even better.

Just about everyone I know who plays WM with regularity has at least two factions. Some have 3, 4 or more.

Really it just comes down to knowing the rules. I love reading and knowing all the rules so am pretty good at them. But I notice a lot of people are not like that. If you don't know the rules or their rules then you usually get screwed.