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So, I recently played a 1000pt game the other day against some new eldar with a mainly slaanesh theme'd list and a dash of nurgle. While we were playing it got me thinking that I wasn't sure I was fully taking advantage of the daemonic rewards available to the KoS. By that I mean, I wasn't entirely convinced the combination I took was the best for this particular greater daemon. Here's what I rolled up:

Greater Reward: Daemonic Resiliance
Exalted Reward: Riftbringer which I exchanged for the Grimoire.

Mastery Level 2: Psychic Shriek and a lucky Invisibility roll.

So although I eventually won the game by a great deal of points, I feel the grimoire was entirely useless. It never really helped, which left me wondering if subing that out for another greater reward would benefit me better? The KoS lacks the flight capabilities and durability of the other GDs, so I'm thinking that 2 greater rewards boosts my chance of rolling the more defensive focused ones, which since he/she/it has to slog it across the board is more necessary. But it also means I lose out on the grimoire and the potential to roll something like Unholy Frenzy or Souleater on the exalted table. Instead I could also potentially boost myself to psychic mastery lvl 3 and get a greater chance again of rolling Invisibility which really shinned on the KoS that game.

Basically, I am torn. So what's the consensus (or in your experience the best) on kitting out the KoS?

I also started out with one greater and one exalted but have moved over to two greater instead and try to fit the portaglyph on someone else. keeper could be a beast in close combat but by giving her the portaglyph she gets double roles. as that supporter who also can fight. better give the portaglyph to a dedicated supporter, for example some herald which helps out in the back field anyway

my keeper:

keeper of secrets
mastery level 3 (for more chance of getting invis, also I would like to get invis and still use shriek before I assault)
2 greater rewards

I run that in a list with 2 slaanesh flying princes, blobs of daemonettes and smaller units of bloodletters, maybee a chariot or a soul grinder and some fiends or hounds

2 greaters really increases the durability.
Always go for lvl 3 psyker. Its very cheap for what it does.

yeah actually I wouldnt say its so hard to have an optimal configuration of the keeper. What I would like to have is a discussion of how to play her

when to footslogg when to deep strike, should I cover mid field with her or go up on the flank? such things

Always, always ML3.
2 Greater Gifts if you already have a place for your Portalglyph.
1 Greater, 1 Exalted if not.

The Grimoire is the single most useful wargear item in the Daemon codex, but it is kind of wasted on the Keeper. It's also never going to be reliable in any list without Fateweaver...but that's another topic altogether.

I'm surprised by the love for the extra Psyker levels when s/he's only LD9.

 whigwam wrote:

The Grimoire is the single most useful wargear item in the Daemon codex, but it is kind of wasted on the Keeper. It's also never going to be reliable in any list without Fateweaver...but that's another topic altogether.

I agree, The grimoire is needed on a flying/fast unit so that it can be allocated wherever it is needed


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
I'm surprised by the love for the extra Psyker levels when s/he's only LD9.

its first and foremost because I want to increase the probability of getting invis. but then also as I said because I later want to use invis and shriek in the same turn, if you are only lvl2 then you can only use invis.

Also that extra psyker level helps to improve the 'deny the witch' result.
This is really handy when some imperial scum is targeting your greater daemon with a power.

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, PML 3 seems to be the best route. In the list I played I didn't run any heralds, just the KoS and naked (haha) daemonette blobs. Basically I had no other unit to carry the grimoire. First time I cast it, it flopped, second time I cast it onto my outflanking seekers and went off, but whether or not I had gotten it off or not, I had such an overwhelming presence on my opponent's flank, all he could do was run instead of shoot, at which point he conceded as I held the objectives.

As for that game, I think what helped my KoS run up was honestly due to the rewards and powers I drew up. That 4+ FNP, Invisibility really saved its bacon against some eldar rangers. Combine that with 2 seeker chariots as harrassment units, and my opponent was forced to split his fire.

As for deployment, I started the KoS kinda off center near one of the flanks, which was where the majority of objectives were located. Hard to say whether or not that made a huge difference in what he/she/it accomplished that game.

Pardon my silly question. Why is Invisibility so important btw? and who do you cast it on?

I'm assuming its for the options of keeping things alive in cover?

its there to keep the keeper alive. she doesnt fly like most others so to be efficient in getting over the table you use invis. it also has some ws bonuses which a nice

I run the keeper often (with 2 great rewards and ML1), and I'm always doing backflips trying to keep it from getting shot to pieces.

Next time I run her, I think I'm going to deepstrike her off an icon in my seeker squad, along with the requisite two squads of daemonettes. It's a lot of meat in the opponents face in one turn, and she'll have a better chance to survive into turn three.

How often are you getting safely into combat compared to a winged daemon?

Since the new book has come out i've ran him/her in multiple ways, i've never taken an exalted or lesser gift on her, just 2 greaters, why you ask? because for those 40pts you can get a lot of buffs to make her almost unkillable, i get 4+ fnp and reroll invul saves a lot (it's not reliable every game but if you get it then it's bound to make your opponent mad) and with help from the grimiore from a different model, your running around with a 3++ rerollable save and then 4+ fnp after that.

Now for the psychic powers she's already a lvl 1 so thats good (always take telepathy, the slaanesh powers arn't that great) I fight eldar on a regular basis and before their new book i had to deal with runes so i never expanded her powers much but now that thats changed i plan on taking her with lvl 2

So to me the best option is to take 2 greater rewards and mastery level 2 with telepathy, shes a cheap MC that can be in your opponents face by turn 2 that can really give him a bad day

Greater Rewards are a good buy since you lack the wings and no stock armor of others choices.

Agreed, greaters benefit KoS and LoC as pretty much everyone is good, hellfire gives some ranged anti av13/14 armourbane is fun espically when you are smashing (whatever hits is pretty much going to pen), 3 plus armour gives you the bit more suriviabilty against small arms and of course +1 wound IWND FNP and re roll invuls are self explanatory, the lash is a interesting prospect if you get something you dont need (hellfire and armourbane/fleshbane spring to mind, if opponent has no tanks).

Honestly, the only reason to take a Keeper imo is to get access to Slaneesh Princes as HS choices, and that's really only needed if there are a ton of Storm Ravens in your Meta.

IDK, she's just a huge target for shooting, and fairly easy to put down compared to a LoC or a BT.

anonymou5 wrote:
Honestly, the only reason to take a Keeper imo is to get access to Slaneesh Princes as HS choices, and that's really only needed if there are a ton of Storm Ravens in your Meta.

IDK, she's just a huge target for shooting, and fairly easy to put down compared to a LoC or a BT.

In my experience people are more afraid of LoC, and BT which means they get shot and die, giving warlord kills... Not to mention to make them good you'll have to spend 300pts or more for it, instead you take a cheaper keeper giving you more pts to spend elsewhere in the army and makes slaanesh princes heavy which in my opinion are the best in the codex as they are guaranteed to get into assault by turn 2. No one ever shoots my keeper when theres 2 princes and 20 hounds right in their face

anonymou5 wrote:
Honestly, the only reason to take a Keeper imo is to get access to Slaneesh Princes as HS choices, and that's really only needed if there are a ton of Storm Ravens in your Meta.

IDK, she's just a huge target for shooting, and fairly easy to put down compared to a LoC or a BT.

Compared to a Bloodthirster, you have a daemon who is basically as killy for 2/3 the price. That doesn't seem like a bad start. I think the big question is how important are wings?

I've had split success with my Keeper so far. One game she dove into a pile of Space Wolves on their objectives straight away, supported by a Daemon Prince, and they ripped everything apart over the next few turns.

Next time I played the same guy, he had her shot down before my turn began.

Her surivivability seems very variable, basically. Lack of wings means she can be shot pretty easy, but I don't really want to Deep Strike her as it stops me blessing and cursing things, and means she simply can't charge until Turn Three.

I agree that 2 Greater Rewards is pretty much mandatory, to increase the odds she survives, I'm experimenting with exactly what Psyker Level to put her on. I still roll one power from the Discipline of Excess, but I've never been the most competitive.

 minigun762 wrote:

anonymou5 wrote:
Honestly, the only reason to take a Keeper imo is to get access to Slaneesh Princes as HS choices, and that's really only needed if there are a ton of Storm Ravens in your Meta.

IDK, she's just a huge target for shooting, and fairly easy to put down compared to a LoC or a BT.

Compared to a Bloodthirster, you have a daemon who is basically as killy for 2/3 the price. That doesn't seem like a bad start. I think the big question is how important are wings?

Well Wings are more than just survivability. Compare:

LoC (or to a lesser extent a BT). Moves 24 inches, vector strikes one target, shoots another.
Keeper: Moves, what, 15 inches (maybe), with no vector strike or shooting?

A LoC also has the ability to engage enemy fliers (minus the Stormraven. Which a Slaneesh Prince is excellent at engaging).

I'll agree with most of what you said.
I'm not convinced on S6 vector strikes against AV12 but it's still a threat to Necron.

I'm not saying LoC or BT are bad, just that KoS is a competitive option for it's price.

Not having wings is a major turnoff for me

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Not having wings is a major turnoff for me

But KoS are supposed to be the most desirable of all Daemons ...

Haha, I knew I accidentally made a pun...

 minigun762 wrote:
I'll agree with most of what you said.
I'm not convinced on S6 vector strikes against AV12 but it's still a threat to Necron.

I'm not saying LoC or BT are bad, just that KoS is a competitive option for it's price.

Sorry, I didn't mean a LoC would kill flyers with his vector strike, but that he would shoot them down (something the KoS can't really do).

Against AV10 (the rear of most fliers), with Flickering Fire, a LoC will do 3.1 HP/24.4% explosion (3 Warp Charge), or 2.4 HP/19.8% (2 Warp Charge)

I mentioned Stormravens, because the LoC can't hurt them with shooting, and for those you need a Slaneesh Prince.

Though, if you build/move your list right, fliers may not be something to worry about if you can get off your turn 2 charges with your KoS, seekers, flesh hounds, ect.

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
Though, if you build/move your list right, fliers may not be something to worry about if you can get off your turn 2 charges with your KoS, seekers, flesh hounds, ect.

This...

Why worry about a stormraven when you can mulch the rest of the troops?

If he's got a stormraven with a libby and whatever, just go full bore into the rest of the line. It will crumble, the libby and his squad will come down somewhere, then you can deal with them.

Dealing with flyers is important when you're across the table from 3-6 nightscythes. Not so much when it's a random stormraven carrying an overprice tac squad.

Against DE, SM, and Orks, flyers are something you can reasonably ignore. Against IG and Crons, not so much - but then again...

Against vendettas daemons don't give a crap (my save is the same, whether against lascannons or bolters), and against nightscythes, flying slaaneshi DPs will really make those 2D6 STR 6 shots shine. Valkyries annoy me more, personally..just because you have to loiter on objectives, wait for the drop, and hope your game goes long.

Wyrdeone wrote:

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
Though, if you build/move your list right, fliers may not be something to worry about if you can get off your turn 2 charges with your KoS, seekers, flesh hounds, ect.

This...

Why worry about a stormraven when you can mulch the rest of the troops?

If he's got a stormraven with a libby and whatever, just go full bore into the rest of the line. It will crumble, the libby and his squad will come down somewhere, then you can deal with them.

Dealing with flyers is important when you're across the table from 3-6 nightscythes. Not so much when it's a random stormraven carrying an overprice tac squad.

Against DE, SM, and Orks, flyers are something you can reasonably ignore. Against IG and Crons, not so much - but then again...

Against vendettas daemons don't give a crap (my save is the same, whether against lascannons or bolters), and against nightscythes, flying slaaneshi DPs will really make those 2D6 STR 6 shots shine. Valkyries annoy me more, personally..just because you have to loiter on objectives, wait for the drop, and hope your game goes long.

I like how I make the point that an additional advantage a LoC has over a Keeper is the ability to kill fliers. (on top of mobility and survivability). I add on that this advantage does not apply to Stormravens.

This leads to a rebuttal where fliers apparently do not matter. Heh. Okay. I guess in that world the LoC's not inconsiderable anti air power is irrelevant.

For what it's worth, I agree that LoC offer much more AA utility.

If we assume that both a KoS and LoC are grabbing two greater rewards and an extra ML, we still have a 60 point difference between them. That's a fair amount of points to spend elsewhere but if we use the price of wings based on daemon prince, we see it matches up very closely with the +1 ML on the LoC.
In the end, either way we get what we pay for.