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Hey fellow Dakkanites. I need an honest opinion (not a 40k fanboy opinion) on this game. I am not a 40k player, so don't have that interest in the game, but I am a fan of the RTS, and DoW2 looks to be interesting... Anybody got this game? Is it any good?

Even disregarding that it's 40k, it's one of the best RTS games ever made in my opinion.

If you are only going to get one of the three DoW2 games, I'd recommend Retribution. It has the best gameplay of the three, allows you to do a campaign for each of the factions, is where most of the multiplayer is going on, and doesn't require Games For Windows Live.

Truth be told, DoWII isn't really an RTS. It's more of a Real Time Tactical, where you have set squads of met with pre-chosen equipment. The original DoW was a proper RTS (with Heroes).

Its ok. Its not really an RTS in the traditional sense, its more of a squad based strategy game with mild RPG elements.

Its main problem is that it becomes very repetative, especially the main game, due to the small number of maps and opponents. It gets tiresome killing the same enemies on the same map in the same place for the 4th time. The boss fights also take far too long and follow essentially the same pattern.

The problem with retribution is that while there are a number of factions they all play essentially the same missions (with minor variations, such as opponents) which severely limits replayability.

Overall its worth playing but I wouldn't describe it as a classic.

 Palindrome wrote:
Its ok. Its not really an RTS in the traditional sense

Just because it doesn't copy starcrapped doesn't mean that it isn't an RTS.

No Mel, it's not an RTS.

RTS's are typified by base building, resource management and the building of units of various types in order to conquer your opponent. Dawn of War is an RTS. Starcraft is an RTS. Command & Conquer was an RTS. Total Annihilation was an RTS. And so on.

Dawn of War 2 (at least the single-player that is), is an RTT, in the same style as Ground Control or even MechCommander, where strategic choices are made between missions and the things that happen during missions are all tactical.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
RTS's are typified by base building

Only according to your entirely arbitrary definition of the term.

For example, Wargame: AirLand Battle is referred to as a Real-Time Strategy game by the developers and pretty much everyone else, despite the fact that it has even less base building than DoW2 does (you don't build or control a single building; the closest you can get is infantry can use buildings as cover and tanks can use them to block line of sight). Base building is not a requirement for an RTS game, nor is being a starcrapped clone or CnC clone. That's like saying that GW2 isn't an MMORPG because it doesn't require a monthly subscription like WoW does-- arbitrary and pointless.

 Melissia wrote:
Base building is not a requirement for an RTS game, nor is being a starcrapped clone or CnC clone.

Both of those games are just clones of Dune2. Is there another earlier RTS?

Edit: Thanks for the information, Melissia.

There are games that developed features that Dune2 made use of. They wouldn't be called "proper" RTS games by today's definitions mind you (Utopia, for example, would probably be called turn-based even though its "turns" took place in real-time), but that's how game development works after all.

 Melissia wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:
Its ok. Its not really an RTS in the traditional sense

Just because it doesn't copy starcrapped doesn't mean that it isn't an RTS.

It doesn't have to be, DoW 2 is not an real RTS because its scale is too small. A handful of squads, each of whom function as a single entity, a limited unit roster and a limited map make DoW 2 a RTT game, or as I like to call them, a squad based game. The Wargame series has a much larger scale and is a 'real' RTS.

As genres are always loosely defined this is entirely irrelevent.

 Palindrome wrote:
It doesn't have to be, DoW 2 is not an real RTS because its scale is too small.

Its "scale" is pretty comparable to most early RTS games in terms of numbers of models running around, even if those models are grouped in to squads.

You're picking nits and making a pointless point, in some vain and desperate attempt to insult DoW2 by calling it "Not a real RTS".

 Melissia wrote:

You're picking nits and making a pointless point, in some vain and desperate attempt to insult DoW2 by calling it "Not a real RTS".

Heh, you are aware of what irony is aren't you? Do you participate in any threads that actually manage to stay on topic?

Hello OP!

Dawn of war 2 is indeed a fun real time strategy game. The voice acting could be less campy but other than that I enjoy the game myself.

I'm still playing the 'Vanilla' DoW2... I haven't touched upon the content from Chaos Rising or Retribution.

Its well worth the purchase if you can get all three (the base game plus the 2 expansions) in some sort of package deal.

Disregarding that it is an RTS or a 40k game, it is a pretty cool game in general.

Oh and if you end up liking DOW2 try Krater... that's pretty fun too.

I don't like it. Well, I suppose it's all right, but like Palindrome said, it does get boring.

But DOW1 on the other hand, is absolutely amazing...

 Melissia wrote:
Only according to your entirely arbitrary definition of the term.

You just like being difficult for the sake of being difficult. Back on ignore with you...

 Tappers wrote:
I don't like it. Well, I suppose it's all right, but like Palindrome said, it does get boring.

But DOW1 on the other hand, is absolutely amazing...

DoW1 is more repetitive and dull than DoW2 by an exponentially large amount. At least DoW2 requires you to think about what you're doing with your units.


To get back on topic:

DoW2's campaign can feel a bit padded (although not as much as DoW1's DC or SS campaigns), but it's rather enjoyable and the longest of the three. It's also nice to have a campaign that isn't basically you listening to some chaos nut shout at you for twenty hours.

DoW2: Chaos Rising's campaign is much more focused and story driven, and it is probably the best overall campaign for those who like Space Marines.

DoW2: Retribution's campaign is a bigger scale than the others in the franchise, and allows you to play any of the six factions (Marines, Spiky Marines, Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Imperial Guard).

DoW 2 is a fantastic game. Its smaller scale allows you to focus on what each unit is doing, and story-wise you grow more attached to the heroes within them too. If you're used to more traditional RTSes then you may find the scale smaller than what you're used to, but it still gets really hectic if you let it. Retribution in particular redresses this balance by letting you swap some of your heroes for larger "standard" units if you wish.
There's also elements of RPG play in there, with characteristics that level up your heroes and allow you to focus them down particular paths, along with special gear you can give them to suit different roles.

The co-op mode is a fun distraction that can get strangely addictive. Multiplayer is more of a hark back to traditional RTS, but there's still no base building and turtling is often a bad idea - the key is in pushing forward, and taking and holding objectives. You have to get stuck in to succeed.

 Melissia wrote:
DoW2: Retribution's campaign is a bigger scale than the others in the franchise, and allows you to play any of the six factions (Marines, Spiky Marines, Orks, Eldar, Tyranids, Imperial Guard).

To pick up on this in particular... Retribution's campaign is definitely bigger in scale in terms of what's at stake. Some of this may well be lost on a non-40k player however. It's also worth mentioning that each campaign is a bit quicker to play through than the original DoW2 (though a lot of this is side-mission padding - the main missions work out about the same). There's also repetition between the different races in their campaigns in terms of maps used and important plot points, so not many people would be able to stomach playing through ALL the different races without taking gaps and playing other games inbetween.

I would suggest having a look at some gameplay videos of original DoW2 and, if it looks decent, pick it up and try it and come back to Retribution later. If it looks a bit too quiet or small-scale for your liking, just go straight for Retribution.

It's a great game, the best campaign you'll find in Retribution. The multiplayer is a bit underpopulated nowadays though.

And unlike people above here that it isn't an RTS, it deffinitely is an RTS. It's just more of an action-oriented real-time strategy game.

Not calling DOW 2 an RTS is like calling Company of Heroes 1 & 2 a simulator game.

I'll agree on that point. It's real-time (as opposed to turn based), and it revolves around strategy. How is it not RTS?!

Really fun game, excellent gameplay, story, graphics, music and sound! Love all DoW2 games but especially Retribution. Buy the complete pack on Steam, I'd say.

Also has a lot of mods that can extend your gameplay enjoyment far past the stock storyline. Mainly mods that make your guys more badass, so you can play on higher difficulty without it being a brutally savage grind.

All-in-all, a very fun, enjoyable game with lots of replay value.

People want to exclude games from the RTS genre because they don't have enough base building or something.



Naturally, these same exact people aren't playing REAL base-building games.

Hehe.

 Melissia wrote:
People want to exclude games from the RTS genre because they don't have enough base building or something.

Which must be why I called the Wargame series RTS games then despite the fact that there is no base building at all (aside from the odd supply depot).

Real base building games? Tower defence games, SimX games, 4X games? Why do you find it so difficult to not troll?

The first dawn of war is more fun in my opinion. It packs epic battles and a single player campaign that I find to be pretty fun as well. The second dawn of war is still fun, but I think it ends up suffering due to the low unit count. You end up with a game that is more about annoying harassment micro management instead of being able to focus on building a superior force and using that force in the most effective way possible. I have seen games of dawn of war 2 won by no more than three infantry squads that one player harassed so effectively with that none of the other players could compete for resources. To me, that's not fun.

I'm an rts fan and like pretty much everything from the original Starcraft to the first supreme commander. I would rate the first dawn of war in my top 2 RTS games, while dawn of war 2 would have trouble making the cut. Certainly top 5, but not top 2.

You know Palindrome, I DO make jokes occasionally. I even edited my post to make it more clear that I was, in fact, joking.

If you like real time tactical games, you'll like DOW2. If you like RTS, you'd probably like it less, but if you really like 40k, you'd probably like them both regardless.

Saying that Dawn of War 2 is not "a real RTS" is both wholly accurate, and not a slam on it, any more than saying Space Marine isn't a real RTS is somehow putting down Space Marine. It's simply a statement of fact that is divorced from opinion as to how good the product is. The Real Time Tactical genre is a real and distinct type separate from the RTS genre by clear and non-arbitrary standards. There is an article here if you want to know more.

The categorization issue is salient to this discussion because OP is asking if he's likely to enjoy the game, and it's useful to show OP other examples from the RTT genre, such as World in Conflict or Mechcommander 2 (which I loved)

I enjoyed the first Dawn of War significantly more than the second because, well, I love the RTS genre significantly more; I cut my teeth on Total Annihilation as one of my most loved games, as well as Supreme Commander.

I also did like DoW2 quite a bit despite not especially liking RTT games. I imagine that's because it's both a well polished game, and my enjoyment of the 40k universe gave it a boost.


That being said, DOW2: Retribution has, in my opinion, both the most polished gameplay and best multiplayer, as it uses steamworks. The multiplayer in DOW2 & Chaos Rising is, frankly, a fiasco as it uses the truly awful GFWL.

DOW2: Retribution also has, IMO, one of the weakest storylines of the whole series, as the campaign is heavily copy-pasted from faction to faction. You'll love playing through as a Space Marine or Guard or whatever the first time, and you're going to probably not bother finishing your second playthrough with a different faction when you realize how much the experience is similar with a different faction. But that's just my experience.

alrighty... so from what i'm hearing, since I am not a big 40k player, and am a big RTS fan, maybe I should look into the first DOW game instead... thanks all!

I think it's reasonable to say that the first Dawn of War is one of the best RTS games of all time; and I'd heartily recommend it even to people who couldn't care less for 40k.

On the plus side, if you later want to try DoW 2, you won't have the story order messed up. And you should try DOW2 later, because that's also a great game.

 Ouze wrote:
Saying that Dawn of War 2 is not "a real RTS" is both wholly accurate, and not a slam on it, any more than saying Space Marine isn't a real RTS is somehow putting down Space Marine. It's simply a statement of fact that is divorced from opinion as to how good the product is. The Real Time Tactical genre is a real and distinct type separate from the RTS genre by clear and non-arbitrary standards. There is an article here if you want to know more.

The categorization issue is salient to this discussion because OP is asking if he's likely to enjoy the game, and it's useful to show OP other examples from the RTT genre, such as World in Conflict or Mechcommander 2 (which I loved)

Which is precisely what I did (citing Ground Control and MechCommander). Shame Mel couldn't figure that out.

And MechCommander was better than MC2.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Shame Mel couldn't figure that out.

I knew what you were getting at. I just thought it was a gakky point.

 Ouze wrote:
DOW2: Retribution also has, IMO, one of the weakest storylines of the whole series, as the campaign is heavily copy-pasted from faction to faction. You'll love playing through as a Space Marine or Guard or whatever the first time, and you're going to probably not bother finishing your second playthrough with a different faction when you realize how much the experience is similar with a different faction. But that's just my experience.

Funny, that's how I felt about three out of four of the Dawn of War 1 campaigns. The latter two were just repeated skirmishes that makes DoW2's padding get put to shame (the fact that people claim Dark Crusade was or even is still somehow the "best" amuses me to this day), the second one wasn't really interesting enough to repeat, and the first one was pretty good.

 Ouze wrote:
The Real Time Tactical genre is a real and distinct type separate from the RTS genre by clear and non-arbitrary standards.

Actually they are entirely arbitrary, and neither the industry nor the fans can actually agree on any standards for the differentiation.

The gaming industry itself basically ignores the distinction and almost never uses it. Especially considering that there's a ton of overlap.

I'm one of the apparent few who enjoyed vanilla DoW2 and Chaos Rising more than Retribution. Apollo Diomedes didn't do it for me, whereas I generally enjoyed the SMs from the 'main' storyline. Also wasn't a fan of the return to requisition mechanics.