Anti-Wave Serpent tactics

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**eje005**

Marsyas wrote:
re: devastator team - the fact that your opponent was apparently the Chosen of the Dice Gods is not representative of Eldar as a whole.

Two landspeeders with two multimeltas each is what, four shots per round? If that's all you're taking in most lists, it sounds like you just proved my point. Absolute best case scenario, that can kill two tanks in a turn (and then will get hosed by the rest of the list). That's not going to do much against an armored company. Against Eldar and Tau, each of whose skimmers are going to be benefiting from a 4+ cover save, meaning half of your hits are going away. Needs moar dakka.

It's not all that I take. It's usually that and the devastators, plus what ever missile launchers are in the tac squads. Also vanilla marines don't have access to high strength high shots, which is what I've been saying. Apart from rifleman dreadnought spam, there's no high shots str 7+ in the book. And if I'm taking those auto cannons my list is going to be ineffective against anything but Eldar and Ork Trukks.

**Lothar**

My brother plays 3 Serpents in 1000 point battle. No chance for my IG, even with vendettas...

btw. Stormies with melta are terrible against WS. 2 shots at BS 4 against 4+ jink and 3 hull points? Not so much given the fact the stormies are dead next turn (105 points gone).

**DarknessEternal**

sudojoe wrote:
With the changes to the shield as well as 4+ cover saves in the open along with being fast and AV12... not to mention twin linked goodness all around or ridiculously cheap lances (come on the upgrade guns are crazy cheap, I'd have to pay so much more for a razorback las cannon)

Except you get 2 Razorbacks with lascannons for the same points as one Wave Serpent. Given the upgrades you describe, you actually get 2 Razorbacks and a few Marines.

sudojoe wrote:

It's more survivable a... than a Land Raider .

That's objectively false.

**wuestenfux**

minigun762 wrote:
What's the likelihood of catching them with fast moving assaulter like Spawn or Maulerfiends?

Equal points of either should bust one open.

Well my Serpent list has two squads of Fire Dragons that handle walkers nicely. Spawns are a different threat. But they are not so common. Hello Helldrakes.

**Farseer Faenyin**

Marsyas wrote:
Spartan089 wrote:
Except what happens when your opponent brings 6 serpents and 3 fireprisims, if it takes your entire army's volume of fire to bring one down then the rest will be left unimpeded. Massed Serpents arnt balanced right now considering not enough armies have access to high Str cover ignoring weapons.

I dunno, I kind of suspect that the biggest reason this army is difficult to face is because the current meta is built towards dealing with monstrous creatures instead of anti-vehicle. People are used to having, say, one or two meltaguns in their list and finding that sufficient. Do you suppose that 6 serpents and 3 fire prisms are significantly harder to bring down than, say, that IG Forge World armored company that lets you take all Leman Russes all the time (9 or so at 1500, more at higher point values)? Or, again at 1500 points, a list that consists of 1 forge world land raider with that annoying attachment that makes it immune to the lance and melta special rules, three other land raiders (one of which has that multi-shot template that ignores cover), two minimum sized units of scouts, one of those bumblebee flier things, and whatever cheap HQ it is that can repair vehicles while inside them?

Not to say that 4+ cover isn't annoying, just that 4+ cover plus most people not gearing their lists to deal with mass vehicles makes Jack a dull boy.

I hate to say it, but I don't think bringing up IG Armored Company is a worthy discussion. That list is mental, and not really fun to play with or against for most of the gamers out there. It is one of those things that gives FW a bad name in the world of 'Can I bring my FW stuff?' conversations.

That being said, I do think that 9 AV12 4+ jinkers are harder to bring down than those 9 LRs. Those LRs aren't mobile and can be dealth with in assault exactly as easily as the Serpents. The only difference is the side and front armor values that I don't think balance for the 4+ save versus all. LRs can be LoS blocked much easier than Serpents, and those LRs aren't bringing nasties to your doorstep.

Additionally, IG Armored Company lists don't do well with that many LRs in an objective setting. Whereas the Serpent-spam certainly can.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

eje005 wrote:
Marsyas wrote:
re: devastator team - the fact that your opponent was apparently the Chosen of the Dice Gods is not representative of Eldar as a whole.

Two landspeeders with two multimeltas each is what, four shots per round? If that's all you're taking in most lists, it sounds like you just proved my point. Absolute best case scenario, that can kill two tanks in a turn (and then will get hosed by the rest of the list). That's not going to do much against an armored company. Against Eldar and Tau, each of whose skimmers are going to be benefiting from a 4+ cover save, meaning half of your hits are going away. Needs moar dakka.

It's not all that I take. It's usually that and the devastators, plus what ever missile launchers are in the tac squads. Also vanilla marines don't have access to high strength high shots, which is what I've been saying. Apart from rifleman dreadnought spam, there's no high shots str 7+ in the book. And if I'm taking those auto cannons my list is going to be ineffective against anything but Eldar and Ork Trukks.

What about a couple Assault-cannon laden Landspeeders? They'd do well against Eldar/Ork/Tau vehicles with the Landspeeder manueverability.

**davou**

Flik wrote:
I've played against new Eldar a couple of times now and I agree Wave Serpents are hiliarously powerful if you use the set up you described.

Against my Tau army I didn't have any issue with them though, with so much cover ignoring hits being able to get spread around they weren't a problem long term.

It was when I came to face a Wave Serpent heavy list with my vanilla marines that it became just plain painful. Despite having numerous missiles and lascannons (including a talon as someone suggested), the uber cover and pen-to-glance wargear made a mockery of what would have previously been a list apt to deal with reasonable amounts of moderate to high AV vehicles. I agree that lots of weaker fire is now the only way to go if you can't get ignore cover high strength, but marines in particular aren't swimming in mass STR6+ shots required to glance one to death (and keeping in mind given how strong they are now you'll rarely see single serpent lists).

I wasted away a game I knew I'd lost early on with vanilla marines just testing how long a conventional TAC list would take to kill a couple and they didn't manage it. In the end the thing that did take one out was rear armour in a lucky assault so I agree with someone saying above getting rid of them that way works if you can catch them and then survive the storm afterwards when you're all clumped together. If the only army you have is vanilla marines I'd say just wait it out and hope we get some shiny upgrades in the new codex in a couple of months. If you want a short term answer bring in Tau allies and have them do all the work.

I haven't tested my Chaos against them yet, I suspect since I go Nurgle themed they'd stand a better chance than my vanilla, but may still struggle without auto cannon spam Havoks.

I've read that using a librarian to seize control of some shooting on the eldar side is a nice trick!

**Gangrel767**

DarknessEternal wrote:
sudojoe wrote:
With the changes to the shield as well as 4+ cover saves in the open along with being fast and AV12... not to mention twin linked goodness all around or ridiculously cheap lances (come on the upgrade guns are crazy cheap, I'd have to pay so much more for a razorback las cannon)

Except you get 2 Razorbacks with lascannons for the same points as one Wave Serpent. Given the upgrades you describe, you actually get 2 Razorbacks and a few Marines.

This may be true, but the Wave Serpent's battlefield role is different than a razorback. It has a greater payload, and it will more reliably deliver its cargo where it needs to be. It is really a support tank. Filling the same role as a Riflemen dreadnought (for example), except for a few more points, it has better weapons, better cover save, and more mobility... and a transport capacity. A riflemen will set you back about 125 points, and a waveserpent somewhere in the area of 145 (holofields, SC, SL). I would take that 20 point upgrade any day. Let's also not forget it takes up no slots, and I don't need to talk about how the serpent shield is incredible.

For a transport.... yes, it is expensive... but for a heavy weapon support tank with a large transport capacity... this thing is money. I mean it's so good at it's role, that the Falcon tank has lost it's way.

My point is you cannot directly compare the two. At least not in my opinion.

sudojoe wrote:

It's more survivable a... than a Land Raider .

That's objectively false.

**Spartan089**

Marsyas wrote:
Wave Serpents can be annoying, yes. 4+ cover just for having moved means that in addition to the fact that you'll probably never get penetrating hits against it, it will also ignore half of your hits outright.

In my experience, it's best to treat them like a monstrous creature when assigning target priority: unless you are willing and able to devote all of the firepower necessary to bring one down, consider what other targets there are on the board that might be a better place to put your firepower., and when you choose to bring one down, do not stop until it is brought down. In most cases, the difference in potential lethality to your army between a wave serpent with full health and a wave serpent with one hull point remaining is precisely nothing.

Also, pay attention to what guns it fires. If the wave serpent fires its d6+1 serpent shield discharge, it loses its ability to ignore penetrating hits until the Eldar player's next turn, and you've got an opening in which you may be able to kill it more easily, and it is now possible to cripple it even if you don't kill it.

That's horrible comparison. Your comparing FW which isn't even widely accepted in mainstream play or tournaments to an Eldar list in the new Codex anyone can take legally. Furthermore that armored company list you mention fails hard to fliers, can't score, can't transport troops, and have fairly limited movement range. And all raider variants can be glanced to death with ease. Mass serpent spam is now worse than flier spam due to more survivability and firepower and the ability to transport troops almost anywhere on the board by turn 2, while maintaining a threat turn 1.

**Farseer Faenyin**

Gangrel767 wrote:

sudojoe wrote:

It's more survivable a... than a Land Raider .

That's objectively false.

I suppose we'd have to see some numbers to back up any claims, but the wave serpent is better off against the random one shot kill you can see on most vehicles, including the land raider.

Also consider that you can have more hull points in Wave Serpents as the Land Raider for the same cost. 230 points for two Serpents. :-P Obviously addons will swing the Serpents to the more expensive side...but...still. That's two units to shoot at, both delivering troops, and VERY resilient.

**Marsyas**

Pretty sure most of FW is also legal in 40k, regardless of whether or not people like it (and the rest is legal in Apocalypse).

Yes, the Wave Serpent is a great buy as a dual-purpose transport/support tank. It may well even be undercosted for what it does. But that's not at issue here. My point stands: if you want to defeat an Eldar mechanized list, then you need to bring more anti-tank (or at least more anti-AV 12) firepower to the battlefield than you're used to bringing.

**RedAngel**

Most of you probably weren't around in 4th. This is just a verbatim repeat of the last codex release. Wildly overpowered WSs that can't be killed, deploying bucket loads of fire dragons. Only after an edition change or a bunch of FAQs will the SWs come back down from the forge world heights of OP cheese.

**Sasori**

RedAngel wrote:
Most of you probably weren't around in 4th. This is just a verbatim repeat of the last codex release. Wildly overpowered WSs that can't be killed, deploying bucket loads of fire dragons. Only after an edition change or a bunch of FAQs will the SWs come back down from the forge world heights of OP cheese.

These WS are not nearly as powerful as Tri-Falcon Holo's were in 4th.

**Exergy**

Sasori wrote:
RedAngel wrote:
Most of you probably weren't around in 4th. This is just a verbatim repeat of the last codex release. Wildly overpowered WSs that can't be killed, deploying bucket loads of fire dragons. Only after an edition change or a bunch of FAQs will the SWs come back down from the forge world heights of OP cheese.

These WS are not nearly as powerful as Tri-Falcon Holo's were in 4th.

what is?

**Sasori**

Exergy wrote:
Sasori wrote:
RedAngel wrote:
Most of you probably weren't around in 4th. This is just a verbatim repeat of the last codex release. Wildly overpowered WSs that can't be killed, deploying bucket loads of fire dragons. Only after an edition change or a bunch of FAQs will the SWs come back down from the forge world heights of OP cheese.

These WS are not nearly as powerful as Tri-Falcon Holo's were in 4th.

what is?

Nothing, which is why it's absolutely ludicrous when anyone compares them to 4th.

Wave Serpents are very survivable now, and very good, but they are certainly not unkillable.

**Spartan089**

Marsyas wrote:
Pretty sure most of FW is also legal in 40k, regardless of whether or not people like it (and the rest is legal in Apocalypse).

Yes, the Wave Serpent is a great buy as a dual-purpose transport/support tank. It may well even be undercosted for what it does. But that's not at issue here. My point stands: if you want to defeat an Eldar mechanized list, then you need to bring more anti-tank (or at least more anti-AV 12) firepower to the battlefield than you're used to bringing.

Have not seen the threads that pop up every other day about FW, also please point to me any major Tournament in the last year that allowed forge world besides War Games Con. My point still stands, normal anti-tactics don't work. The ability to spam good firepower on a permanent 4+ coversave av12 platform WITH jink in mass numbers is not balanced. Its not about anti-tank tactics, Wave Serpents are entirely in their own class.

**Sasori**

Spartan089 wrote:
Marsyas wrote:
Pretty sure most of FW is also legal in 40k, regardless of whether or not people like it (and the rest is legal in Apocalypse).

Yes, the Wave Serpent is a great buy as a dual-purpose transport/support tank. It may well even be undercosted for what it does. But that's not at issue here. My point stands: if you want to defeat an Eldar mechanized list, then you need to bring more anti-tank (or at least more anti-AV 12) firepower to the battlefield than you're used to bringing.

Have not seen the threads that pop up every other day about FW, also please point to me any major Tournament in the last year that allowed forge world besides War Games Con. My point still stands, normal anti-tactics don't work. The ability to spam good firepower on a permanent 4+ coversave av13 platform WITH jink in mass numbers is not balanced. Its not about anti-tank tactics, Wave Serpents are entirely in their own class.

The BAO, allowed FW.

**minigun762**

WS are my biggest overall concern from Eldar right now.
3x squads of AC Havocs average less than 1 kill per turn. That's pretty dang tough for AV12.

**Marsyas**

Spartan089 wrote:

Have not seen the threads that pop up every other day about FW, also please point to me any major Tournament in the last year that allowed forge world besides War Games Con. My point still stands, normal anti-tactics don't work. The ability to spam good firepower on a permanent 4+ coversave av13 platform WITH jink in mass numbers is not balanced. Its not about anti-tank tactics, Wave Serpents are entirely in their own class.

I assume you mean AV12. And while I'm not sure if it's a major tournament or not, the Kublacon Golden Gargant allowed Forgeworld.

**PsychicSpaceElf**

Ally in Dark Reapers with star shot missiles.

The earlier advice of waiting for the eldar player to use the shield as a weapon and then pouring enough fire power on it to put it down was good. The best you can hope for without cover (or at least jink) ignoring weaponry.

The good news is that it is very tempting to use the shield as a weapon every turn. 60" range, str 7, ignores cover, pining, 2-7 shots. I've played 3 games with the new codex and have run my serpent with holo fields. I used the shield as a gun almost every turn of all three games and the serpent was still around at the end of each game. I expect my friends to devote more attention to them in the future so they may not make it to the end, but it will be worth it.

**Magc8Ball**

I think that a lot of people are confusing "cannot kill with my standard army build" with "overpowered". Just because something is new and different does not mean that it is unstoppable.

New army means that the overall environment has just changed. Eldar with Serpents means that you have to now take "mech" style lists into account again. Deal with it.

**ansacs**

They are definitely a meta changer. S7+ mulishot weapons should have always been necessary for AV12 and lower but due to the fragility of the tanks with sub AV12 and how overall bad the armies that depend on them as their only tanks have been (DE and CWE) people have stopped including those weapons in TAC lists. Now that there is a good AV12 tank people are freaking out as they have to adapt.

To the OP get behind the tank or ignore it until it fires it's shield. Bubble wrap and cover are vital to force a faster opponent to expose vulnerabilities.
I personally find SM vanilla to be lacking unless they go crazy with TL drop pod sternguard and 3x TFCs. If they do then drop in behind the WS and you should kill 3.TFC the contents and any thing outside the WS as the TFC is great against many of the cheaper eldar troops.
IG plasma spam is actually not bad against this. Vendetta spam also does pretty good but you better get them on turn 2.
If someone brings 4+ WS that is eldar version of a highly competitive list and you need to recognize that and bring a corresponding list.

Btw are there even any vanilla SM lists that are tournament level? I know with Tau allies they can be but what about pure SM?

**minigun762**

Three Hadesfiends should be able to kill one per turn not counting daemonforge and assuming a 4+ cover save.

Three WS will kill a Forgefiend in one turn if they use the shield.

Three Drakes will kill a WS in one turn with vector strikes.

**Davespil**

I played against an opponent who fielded two of the wave serpents with all of the cheese, and a FoR just to really pile it on. But I had one Ravenwing Black Knight ride up to him and and blow him up. All he had was a corvious hammer that gives him+1 str. In CC they go down pretty easy (AV10 Rear I believe). You could try a squad of bikes with a power fist ( power axe could work too).. And attack bike with a MM and two meltaguns would work two if you could get behind them. Deepstriking landspeeders behind them would caus some glances on them (maybe even a pen with a crappy roll) but that would usually be suicide for them. They are a tough nut to crack.

**LValx**

I am a Tau player. I use the following unit:

Commander - Puretide chip, Multi spectrum, Iridium armor
3 Broadsides - HYMP, SMS, 6 Drones.

I've played Mechdar 3 times and each time that unit has taken out 5+ vehicles. On average that unit will remove about 3 AV12 vehicles a turn. It is also incredibly durable and difficult for Eldar players to remove.

For non-Tau players.... good luck..

**RedAngel**

A guy from my club just came up with what appears to be a good idea. Use th Telepathy power Puppet Master to take control of a WS. Shoot the shield off at the eldar. Then its robed of its shield, & possesed of less defenses.

**pantsonhead**

I'm not sure that works. The Shield can only be deactivated in the Serpent's shooting phase. If the other guy's Shooting phase counts as "its Shooting phase", then in normal use the Shield likewise regenerates before the enemy's shooting phase since the enemy's turn counts as "its following turn". Plus Puppet Master doesn't give permission to use vehicle wargear, which you have to do to do the "deactivation". You can't choose to have the Serpent move Flat Out or anything else either; you just get to shoot its weapons.

**Sasori**

LValx wrote:
I am a Tau player. I use the following unit:

Commander - Puretide chip, Multi spectrum, Iridium armor
3 Broadsides - HYMP, SMS, 6 Drones.

I've played Mechdar 3 times and each time that unit has taken out 5+ vehicles. On average that unit will remove about 3 AV12 vehicles a turn. It is also incredibly durable and difficult for Eldar players to remove.

For non-Tau players.... good luck..

Nasty unit for sure.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but how is it removing 3 vehicles a turn from that one unit? Also, do you really benefit from the Puretide chip that much?

**pantsonhead**

I assume that two of the Broadsides have target locks. Maybe all three. The Puretide chip lets you give everything in the unit Tank Hunters, so you do benefit quite a bit from it.

*Sigh* More reason to take Hunters, I guess.

**Sasori**

pantsonhead wrote:
I assume that two of the Broadsides have target locks. Maybe all three. The Puretide chip lets you give everything in the unit Tank Hunters, so you do benefit quite a bit from it.

Puretide chip is only the model, not for the unit.

**pantsonhead**

But Tank Hunters is one of those "a unit that contains at least one model" rules.