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It's not really even about killing 5+ WS in total, it's really how to deal with them in the time it takes them to get to where they want to go which most times will be turn 2 or 3 at the latest.

Also, their return fire is pretty nasty, and will nearly always be able to get the alpha strike with their occupants surviving to fire at your more sensitive areas (i.e. can probably even get behind the aegis lines for example.)

All of the fire needed to take these down in volume are often AP4 or (-) . which then makes it much harder to take down AP2 or 3 which is why I think a lot of folks are gonna go MC's. Takes forever to down a flying daemon prince of tzeentch w/ power armor with those same weapon systems.

So far I'm guessing that misslesides with tank hunter commanders will be the best option in terms of straight power fight. However I do worry about them when some fire dragons show up to melt them however but oh well. Really seeing the RPS thing definitely.

Wonder how SM will fare (though I doubt it'll be too meta shifting) while the orks update will make a huge meta change again I'm sure.

Is it true that serpent shield has 72" range? That's what an Eldar player told me. If so, how do you hide from that?

I play Orks.
My traditional method of opening up AV12 transports it the Loota.

2 squads of 10 Lootas each firing on the same Wave Serpent will strip of 2 HP on average. Obviously this isn't worth it.
So I think we should ignore them until we can hit it in CC. "Well duh" some of you are thinking. Yes.


If the wave serpent is coming towards me to drop its short ranges shooting troops, then the transport and contents are likely within my charge range next turn. If they are close (enough) to my back line Shoota squad (aka objective campers), the Shootas will Multi-charge against the unit and waveserpsent, with some care taken in the movement phase so my Nob with Power Klaw is closest for the secondary target (waveserpent) and let the boyz hit the infantry (primary target). Eldar, having nice saves, makes them idea targets to whittle down by shootas without worrying about the squad evaporating and prematurely ending the charge.
Changes:
This means I will have to give my back line shoota squad a Power Klaw and probably a trukk of their own so I can reposition them as need be.
.. maybe I can put my Lootas in their trukk first turn.


If the wave serpent is standing off and using its shooting attack, likely to target and slaughter my Lootas, those Lootas are screwed. If there are 3-4 WS, keeping my lootas out of LOS (and snap firing or not shooting a turn) might be a necessity.
Changes:
Kannon now become a stronger contender for dealing with AV12.
The bastion as protection (for my Lootas) rather then the Aegis 4/2+ cover now looks nicer and nicer.

The biker Warboss remains an option, but not worth it IMO. He might die from return fire next turn, and he likely has more important targets elsewhere.



I look forward to game against Eldar so I can test my thoughts out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Is it true that serpent shield has 72" range? That's what an Eldar player told me. If so, how do you hide from that?

60"
Ignores cover.

There is no partial hiding, you can hide by blocking LOS.

Gah, even 60" is bad. What was kelly thinking? 0_o

My biggest issue as an avid serpent user is nonscatter deepstrikes from the rear...its become so prevalent and game changing that I am heavily contemplating vectored engines just so I can shoot what I need and then hide the a** on that tank.

As I deal with any vehicle in the game...
Gauss
Heheh

 iGuy91 wrote:
As I deal with any vehicle in the game...
Gauss
Heheh

Sadly, their weapons greatly out range ours. That 60" range is absurd. Even the 3rd ed monolith didn't have something that ludicrous.

That said, anni barges may be a good counter. They do churn out a lot of S7 shots. I'm tempted to throw down a monolith as well, just to teleport the warriors a bit closer.

BtW, what's with all of the 1850 lists? The last 3 games I played on vassal were all 1850pts.

 ductvader wrote:
My biggest issue as an avid serpent user is nonscatter deepstrikes from the rear...its become so prevalent and game changing that I am heavily contemplating vectored engines just so I can shoot what I need and then hide the a** on that tank.

Just probably need it on every other WS as you can pretty much park them "rear to rear" so to speak. Anyone trying to shoot your rear would be at extreme angle thus a 3+ cover brought up to 2+ cover with the holofields....

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
As I deal with any vehicle in the game...
Gauss
Heheh

Sadly, their weapons greatly out range ours. That 60" range is absurd. Even the 3rd ed monolith didn't have something that ludicrous.

That said, anni barges may be a good counter. They do churn out a lot of S7 shots. I'm tempted to throw down a monolith as well, just to teleport the warriors a bit closer.

BtW, what's with all of the 1850 lists? The last 3 games I played on vassal were all 1850pts.

1850 are standard tournament sized games. Also, annihilation barges being a counter is sorta redundant given how amazingly under costed they are. That unit is the counter for pretty much everything and why high tier lists pretty much always use 3.

 sudojoe wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
My biggest issue as an avid serpent user is nonscatter deepstrikes from the rear...its become so prevalent and game changing that I am heavily contemplating vectored engines just so I can shoot what I need and then hide the a** on that tank.

Just probably need it on every other WS as you can pretty much park them "rear to rear" so to speak. Anyone trying to shoot your rear would be at extreme angle thus a 3+ cover brought up to 2+ cover with the holofields....

I was thinking just on my 2 Guardian squads.

THough I have contempated the Wraithguard squad so i can disembark them with the back end angled towards the enemy, shoot and turn back around...as a way to get a few extra inches of shooting range.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Gah, even 60" is bad. What was kelly thinking? 0_o

Honestly, that's not a big deal. It's only S6 too, I'd gladly take that shot to get a chance at penetrating that Wave Serpent.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Gah, even 60" is bad. What was kelly thinking? 0_o

Honestly, that's not a big deal. It's only S6 too, I'd gladly take that shot to get a chance at penetrating that Wave Serpent.

Most of the time you're taking 4 TL S6 shots and 4-5 TL S7 shots.

Unless he doesn't want to do that, then you can't shoot through the shield...or it isnt likely.

I personally run Shuriken cannons too because I keep shields up 67% of the time.

With my patented telecrons list, you can drop 2-3 wave serpents turn 1!


Its gimmicky, but a heck of a lot of fun to play!

While Gauss is well known to be mean to vehicles...it doesn't help the other 15 armies out there.

Massed S6 and 7 seems to be the way through a Serpent...and if you can ignore cover, all the better.

Outmaneuvering them isn't likely, but DS can throw them for a loop.

CC murderfaces them but is difficult to achieve.

Horde with hidden meltabombs and melta guns or various other AT options (Power claws, even massed S4) have been the bane of my mechdar.

At 2k you can fill out troops with 6 Serpents and grab 3 Prisms or a mix of Prisms and Spinners, I think you can fit in an HQ and still have enough for 1-2 more squads.

I'm not complaining, because my army can handle them. Unfortunately, most others cannot. It requires a TON of shots to down 1 WS that has its shield up and a 4+ save. If you cant remove their cover, good luck efficiently removing them.

CC is good, but really hard to do because of the speed. They can reposition very well, giving them the edge on a lot of lists.

Missile spam doesnt work vs Serpents.... 18 of them would average one wrecked Serpent. The Serpents outrange the missiles and can easily remove a good number of them before the missiles can even shoot.

Land Raiders would work if it weren't for cheap Bright Lances, Wraithguard, and Dragons.

 ductvader wrote:
Land Raiders would work if it weren't for cheap Bright Lances, Wraithguard, and Dragons.

And the fact that if you brought a raider, or raiders, their superior mobility would just allow them to not engage and dominate the board whilst picking off your weak support (assuming you brought any).

Serpents are just the new good for the time being. I expect orks or marines to bring them to balance soon enough.

Just like how Tau has reduced the amount of fliers and therefore reduced my need for AA.

 LValx wrote:
At 2k you can fill out troops with 6 Serpents and grab 3 Prisms or a mix of Prisms and Spinners, I think you can fit in an HQ and still have enough for 1-2 more squads.

I'm not complaining, because my army can handle them. Unfortunately, most others cannot. It requires a TON of shots to down 1 WS that has its shield up and a 4+ save. If you cant remove their cover, good luck efficiently removing them.

CC is good, but really hard to do because of the speed. They can reposition very well, giving them the edge on a lot of lists.

Missile spam doesnt work vs Serpents.... 18 of them would average one wrecked Serpent. The Serpents outrange the missiles and can easily remove a good number of them before the missiles can even shoot.

A pure shooty MSU SW army isn't just missiles. At 2K, you can run something like this (this was 1 of the lists that I used to run):


Rune Priest + Upgrade, Living Lightning - 110
Rune Priest - Living Lightning - 100

Rifleman Dread - 125
Rifleman Dread - 125

5x GH - Melta, Rhino - 115
5x GH - Melta, Rhino - 115
5x GH - Plasma, Las/plas Razorback - 160
5x GH - Plasma, Las/plas Razorback - 160
5x GH - Flamer, Lazorback - 150
5x GH - Flamer, Lazorback - 150

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90

6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140

2000


2D6 S7 shots, unlimited range
Up to 12 TL-S7 shots
4 S9 shots (2 x TL)
21 S8 shots


If you want, you can get Stormcaller to give nearby vehicles cover. There's enough guns here to give serpent-spam a good fight. As a matter of fact, whoever goes first will most likely win. With these types of lists, it's all about the alpha-strike.

A couple things of note: 1) once the serpents fire, they should be vulnerable to pens because they will most likely use their energy shields as a weapon and 2) even if they don't, you can always target the spinners/prisms/falcons and get pens on those.

 jy2 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
At 2k you can fill out troops with 6 Serpents and grab 3 Prisms or a mix of Prisms and Spinners, I think you can fit in an HQ and still have enough for 1-2 more squads.

I'm not complaining, because my army can handle them. Unfortunately, most others cannot. It requires a TON of shots to down 1 WS that has its shield up and a 4+ save. If you cant remove their cover, good luck efficiently removing them.

CC is good, but really hard to do because of the speed. They can reposition very well, giving them the edge on a lot of lists.

Missile spam doesnt work vs Serpents.... 18 of them would average one wrecked Serpent. The Serpents outrange the missiles and can easily remove a good number of them before the missiles can even shoot.

A pure shooty MSU SW army isn't just missiles. At 2K, you can run something like this (this was 1 of the lists that I used to run):


Rune Priest + Upgrade, Living Lightning - 110
Rune Priest - Living Lightning - 100

Rifleman Dread - 125
Rifleman Dread - 125

5x GH - Melta, Rhino - 115
5x GH - Melta, Rhino - 115
5x GH - Plasma, Las/plas Razorback - 160
5x GH - Plasma, Las/plas Razorback - 160
5x GH - Flamer, Lazorback - 150
5x GH - Flamer, Lazorback - 150

Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90
Land Speeder Typhoon - 90

6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles - 140

2000


2D6 S7 shots, unlimited range
Up to 12 TL-S7 shots
4 S9 shots (2 x TL)
21 S8 shots


If you want, you can get Stormcaller to give nearby vehicles cover. There's enough guns here to give serpent-spam a good fight. As a matter of fact, whoever goes first will most likely win. With these types of lists, it's all about the alpha-strike.

A couple things of note: 1) once the serpents fire, they should be vulnerable to pens because they will most likely use their energy shields as a weapon and 2) even if they don't, you can always target the spinners/prisms/falcons and get pens on those.

Yeah, but the problem with that list is that it wont do well vs some of the other lists that are big, namely Heldrakes and Necron Flyers. There's a reason that you don't see MSU Razorbacks and Typhoons these days. Simply too fragile and the Razors are too punishing on the guys inside. Fangs (and regular Devs) just aren't as good as they once were.

I dont think any Marine contingent is well-equipped to deal with Serpents while still fielding a TAC list. I just don't see it and that SW list doesnt convince me.

I have never seen a Space Wolf list without drop pods before...and frankly I don't know that I ever wanted to.

 LValx wrote:
Yeah, but the problem with that list is that it wont do well vs some of the other lists that are big, namely Heldrakes and Necron Flyers. There's a reason that you don't see MSU Razorbacks and Typhoons these days. Simply too fragile and the Razors are too punishing on the guys inside. Fangs (and regular Devs) just aren't as good as they once were.

I dont think any Marine contingent is well-equipped to deal with Serpents while still fielding a TAC list. I just don't see it and that SW list doesnt convince me.

It's true that MSU has been hurt by the advent of necrons and in particular, necron flyer-spam and/or scarab farm. However, they are still a very strong build that can deal with many army builds in any non-VP missions.

But I agree with you that there is no magic bullet list that can deal with all the different list combos/threats that exist today. It is just impossible.

BTW, this type of list can definitely handle triple-heldrake lists. Those lists are good, but they are not the best. That is because the Chaos army on the whole is usually lacking in shooting or mobility.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:
I have never seen a Space Wolf list without drop pods before...and frankly I don't know that I ever wanted to.

Then you haven't been playing enough 40k.

Ironically, IMO, it was the heldrakes that brought back the drop pod lists. For a period of time, 5th Ed. grey knights (i.e. Warp Quake-spam) relegated drop pod SW lists to mainly sitting on the shelves. But with the emergence of helturkeys, warp quake-lists are much rarer these days, which is why drop pod lists are making a comeback.

 jy2 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Yeah, but the problem with that list is that it wont do well vs some of the other lists that are big, namely Heldrakes and Necron Flyers. There's a reason that you don't see MSU Razorbacks and Typhoons these days. Simply too fragile and the Razors are too punishing on the guys inside. Fangs (and regular Devs) just aren't as good as they once were.

I dont think any Marine contingent is well-equipped to deal with Serpents while still fielding a TAC list. I just don't see it and that SW list doesnt convince me.

It's true that MSU has been hurt by the advent of necrons and in particular, necron flyer-spam and/or scarab farm. However, they are still a very strong build that can deal with many army builds in any non-VP missions.

But I agree with you that there is no magic bullet list that can deal with all the different list combos/threats that exist today. It is just impossible.

BTW, this type of list can definitely handle triple-heldrake lists. Those lists are good, but they are not the best. That is because the Chaos army on the whole is usually lacking in shooting or mobility.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:
I have never seen a Space Wolf list without drop pods before...and frankly I don't know that I ever wanted to.

Then you haven't been playing enough 40k.

Ironically, IMO, it was the heldrakes that brought back the drop pod lists. For a period of time, 5th Ed. grey knights (i.e. Warp Quake-spam) relegated drop pod SW lists to mainly sitting on the shelves. But with the emergence of helturkeys, warp quake-lists are much rarer these days, which is why drop pod lists are making a comeback.

I think a few armies can get very close to being TAC. But I dont think any Marine codex fits the bill.

Also, I think that SW list would have an incredibly difficult time with CSM/Necrons. You can field 2-3 Drakes, 2-3 Scythes, Barges and Oblits. Making it fairly easy to blow transports. Not to mention the turkey will most likely be able to alpha-strike the Fangs.

 ductvader wrote:
Serpents are just the new good for the time being. I expect orks or marines to bring them to balance soon enough.

Just like how Tau has reduced the amount of fliers and therefore reduced my need for AA.

How are orks or marines going to do this?

 davou wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Serpents are just the new good for the time being. I expect orks or marines to bring them to balance soon enough.

Just like how Tau has reduced the amount of fliers and therefore reduced my need for AA.

How are orks or marines going to do this?

Orks would do it with any update...a horde with powerclaws kills generic mechdar already...points reduction or increased durability of units would do it.

Marines, whether the superdreadnought or giant tank rumors are true its likely we'll be seeing massed s8 or more s7 ignores cover/jink weaponry.

 davou wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Serpents are just the new good for the time being. I expect orks or marines to bring them to balance soon enough.

Just like how Tau has reduced the amount of fliers and therefore reduced my need for AA.

How are orks or marines going to do this?

I don't know about marines, but for orks:

2 KFF Big Mek's
180 boyz
2 IG Blob squads


Sit on objectives. Have fun blasting them away.

 jy2 wrote:


2 KFF Big Mek's
180 boyz
2 IG Blob squads


Sit on objectives. Have fun blasting them away.

This kind of blob wont do well against eldar that can pimp the terrify.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ductvader wrote:

 davou wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Serpents are just the new good for the time being. I expect orks or marines to bring them to balance soon enough.

Just like how Tau has reduced the amount of fliers and therefore reduced my need for AA.

How are orks or marines going to do this?

Orks would do it with any update...a horde with powerclaws kills generic mechdar already...points reduction or increased durability of units would do it.

Marines, whether the superdreadnought or giant tank rumors are true its likely we'll be seeing massed s8 or more s7 ignores cover/jink weaponry.

ah, you meant after an update? I dont doubt that they will both have an answer in built. Probably a broken one for orks since its gonna be ward doing the dex

 davou wrote:

 jy2 wrote:


2 KFF Big Mek's
180 boyz
2 IG Blob squads


Sit on objectives. Have fun blasting them away.

This kind of blob wont do well against eldar that can pimp the terrify.

No biggie.

Ork mobs are stil LD10. And we are talking wave serpent-spam here, not the seer council.

IG blob should be LD 9/10 with commissar/Lord Commissar, stubborn and with re-roll for LD.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Gah, even 60" is bad. What was kelly thinking? 0_o

Honestly, that's not a big deal. It's only S6 too, I'd gladly take that shot to get a chance at penetrating that Wave Serpent.

S7.

 Titan Atlas wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Gah, even 60" is bad. What was kelly thinking? 0_o

Honestly, that's not a big deal. It's only S6 too, I'd gladly take that shot to get a chance at penetrating that Wave Serpent.

S7.

And ignores cover. Which is fine, because it's AP-...unless you are a vehicle or artillery, then not so fine.

By artillery, I mean the sentry pylon in particular.