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Made in us
Screaming Shining Spear





Central Pennsylvania

So with new Crimson Hunter being out and me having Nightwing Interceptors prior to the Codex...I have options. So my question is, for those that know the rules of both, which of these two units is better in the current environment? I figure we can have a little fun at the same time and do this with a theme, and lets try a Court theme. Here are some of the basics that I can pin down immediately:

Crimson Hunter's Openning Remarks:
-I can quite handily take down most flyers I get the chance to open up on, with my re-roll ability
-I can become BS5 with the upgrade to an Exarch that makes me extremely deadly with my 4 shots at STR 8.
-I have Vector Dancer, so I can make myself hard to access to the enemy for return fire with the proper cover

The Nightwing Interceptor's Openning Remarks:
-I am not as skilled versus enemy flyers but am a much better all around unit for a cheaper points cost
-I am BS4 but offer more shots due to the twin-Shuriken Cannons to go with my two Brightlances
-I am more survivable than the Crimson Hunter due to being Shrouded

So those are just the openning remarks...feel free to call yourself as a witness or the flyers in question and add testimony or even questions for others to answer if you don't know for sure!

All in all, this is a Tactical discussion on the two flyers and how they compare. I would like to see if others feel the Nightwing might be a better unit to bring.

Farseer Faenyin
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You might also want to make mention that the Nightwing is 2 HP whereas the Crimson Hunter is 3HP
   
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Central Pennsylvania

SaganGree wrote:
You might also want to make mention that the Nightwing is 2 HP whereas the Crimson Hunter is 3HP


Ah yes, another important difference.

Farseer Faenyin
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Record for 6th Edition- Eldar: 25-4-2
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SaganGree wrote:
You might also want to make mention that the Nightwing is 2 HP whereas the Crimson Hunter is 3HP

That's part of the survivability bullets. Nightwings, even with 2 HP, are significantly harder to kill than Crimson Hunters.

"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."

This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.


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Central Pennsylvania

I feel this way as well. Mathhammer style, a BS4 Quad Gun:

Versus Crimson Hunter:
-Hits ≈3.5
-Glances or better ≈2.31
-Penetrations ≈1.75
-Destroyed Results ≈0.3
-Possibly less with cover


Versus Nightwing:
-Hits ≈3.5
-Glances or better ≈1.52
-Penetrations ≈1.16
-Destroyed Results ≈0.2
-Possibly less with cover

So overall they are very similar in survivability, with both being able to be Hullpointed down equally but the Nightwing much more survivable against more powerful fire.


Farseer Faenyin
7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc)
Record for 6th Edition- Eldar: 25-4-2
Record for 7th Edition -
Eldar: 0-0-0 (Yes, I feel it is that bad)

Battlefleet Gothic: 2,750 pts of Craftworld Eldar
X-wing(Focusing on Imperials): CR90, 6 TIE Fighters, 4 TIE Interceptors, TIE Bomber, TIE Advanced, 4 X-wings, 3 A-wings, 3 B-wings, Y-wing, Z-95
Battletech: Battlion and Command Lance of 3025 Mechs(painted as 21st Rim Worlds) 
   
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It really depends on whether you can take the opponent's Interceptor units or not. Or can stay out of range.

Otherwise the Nightwing is almost guaranteed to survive. It's so much more durable against everything except cover ignoring shots.

The Crimson Hunter packs a much bigger punch though.

I tend to use one of both.

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DC Metro

How about some additional comparisons against other common attackers? Put each one up against a squad of missilefist Broadsides, or a Skyray, or a Heldrake or a Vendetta or a Stormtalon, or a Dakkajet, or a Voidraven.
   
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I don't think the Helldrake cares which one you field, since vector strike ignores cover.

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Massachusetts

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
How about some additional comparisons against other common attackers? Put each one up against a squad of missilefist Broadsides, or a Skyray, or a Heldrake or a Vendetta or a Stormtalon, or a Dakkajet, or a Voidraven.


This is a good point.
For example, A vendetta has a little less firepower (3 TL Lascannons), much better protection (3 HP and AV12), can carry 12 models and only costs 130 points. While the Crimson Hunter has superior firepower and accuracy - especially against other flyers - but offers far poorer protection, cannot carry troops and costs more.

EDIT : Typos.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/17 16:39:34


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Central Pennsylvania

 Marsyas wrote:
I don't think the Helldrake cares which one you field, since vector strike ignores cover.


If a Helldrake is Vector Striking your Nightwing or Crimson Hunter you have clearly put it into a position that you shouldn't have, or were already understanding you might lose the model to get a side or rear shot on something else equally important to bring down. Honestly I feel Helldrakes are one of the least troublesome in the way of killing our flyers, but MUCH deadlier versus our infantry as it is against most lists.

Farseer Faenyin
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Record for 6th Edition- Eldar: 25-4-2
Record for 7th Edition -
Eldar: 0-0-0 (Yes, I feel it is that bad)

Battlefleet Gothic: 2,750 pts of Craftworld Eldar
X-wing(Focusing on Imperials): CR90, 6 TIE Fighters, 4 TIE Interceptors, TIE Bomber, TIE Advanced, 4 X-wings, 3 A-wings, 3 B-wings, Y-wing, Z-95
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Beijing, China

 Grugknuckle wrote:
DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
How about some additional comparisons against other common attackers? Put each one up against a squad of missilefist Broadsides, or a Skyray, or a Heldrake or a Vendetta or a Stormtalon, or a Dakkajet, or a Voidraven.


This is a good point.
For example, A vendetta has a little less firepower (3 TL Lascannons), much better protection (3 HP and AV12), can carry 12 models and only costs 130 points. While the Crimson Hunter has superior firepower and accuracy - especially against other flyers - but offers far poorer protection, cannot carry troops and costs more.

EDIT : Typos.


Vendettas are overpowered. There is little point in comparing any flyer to a vendetta, but we could see how the nightwing and crimson hunter take damage from vendettas. Vendettas are going to be the gold standard in flyers until the IG codex gets rewritten in 7th edition.

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 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
 Marsyas wrote:
I don't think the Helldrake cares which one you field, since vector strike ignores cover.


If a Helldrake is Vector Striking your Nightwing or Crimson Hunter you have clearly put it into a position that you shouldn't have, or were already understanding you might lose the model to get a side or rear shot on something else equally important to bring down. Honestly I feel Helldrakes are one of the least troublesome in the way of killing our flyers, but MUCH deadlier versus our infantry as it is against most lists.


Heldrakes aren't the only thing with Vector Strike in the sky. True the STR6 strike from a FMC isn't as devestating (averaging only one glance/pen), but one FMC usually has friends. That said, a LoC or Fateweaver is just going to shoot a Crimson Hunter to death (3 Warp Charge Flickering Fire averages 3.11 HPs with 24% of explosion)

Edit: that's with jink. Numbers obviously much worse versus a Nightwing, and dependent on whether or not the flying circus has perfect timing

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/17 17:21:05


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Central Pennsylvania

anonymou5 wrote:
 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
 Marsyas wrote:
I don't think the Helldrake cares which one you field, since vector strike ignores cover.


If a Helldrake is Vector Striking your Nightwing or Crimson Hunter you have clearly put it into a position that you shouldn't have, or were already understanding you might lose the model to get a side or rear shot on something else equally important to bring down. Honestly I feel Helldrakes are one of the least troublesome in the way of killing our flyers, but MUCH deadlier versus our infantry as it is against most lists.


Heldrakes aren't the only thing with Vector Strike in the sky. True the STR6 strike from a FMC isn't as devestating (averaging only one glance/pen), but one FMC usually has friends. That said, a LoC or Fateweaver is just going to shoot a Crimson Hunter to death (3 Warp Charge Flickering Fire averages 3.11 HPs with 24% of explosion)

Edit: that's with jink. Numbers obviously much worse versus a Nightwing, and dependent on whether or not the flying circus has perfect timing


I do agree with you on that they aren't the only things with Vector Strike in the sky, but I was responding to the poster who I quoted. That poster was talking about the Helldrake....so I was responding to the Helldrake idea of Vector Striking and ignoring the Shrouded that the Nightwing gets. Vector Strike isn't that much of a problem though, regardless of who can bring it to the table. A Vector Dancing Nightwing or Crimson Hunter will always be along the back table edge if such threats are present and within range to do so...keeping the VS from being possible. We could meta-slam each other all day with counters for each other's units. It is a waste of time and bad form on the forums if you ask me....

I understand that shooting downs these fighters can be done easily by most lists from a mathmatical standpoint...that isn't the question. This is discussing the relative values for these two flyers.

Edit: Grammatical fails.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/17 18:49:05


Farseer Faenyin
7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc)
Record for 6th Edition- Eldar: 25-4-2
Record for 7th Edition -
Eldar: 0-0-0 (Yes, I feel it is that bad)

Battlefleet Gothic: 2,750 pts of Craftworld Eldar
X-wing(Focusing on Imperials): CR90, 6 TIE Fighters, 4 TIE Interceptors, TIE Bomber, TIE Advanced, 4 X-wings, 3 A-wings, 3 B-wings, Y-wing, Z-95
Battletech: Battlion and Command Lance of 3025 Mechs(painted as 21st Rim Worlds) 
   
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Groningen

IMO the only reason to take either as Eldar, is the ability to take out a Helldrake. That torrent weapon is the bane to almost all Eldar non vehicle units.
Flying MCs can be dealt with ground units relatively easy.
Vendetta's are just 3 lascannons, from which you can get jink/cover saves.

So which one is better to take out a Helldrake? Neither is likely to down one in one volley if attacking front armour.
With Vector Dancer, you stand a good chance to get rear armour shots off on the turn it comes in. In that case the Nightwing is deadlier, and cheaper.
   
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No weapons with the Ignores Cover rule actually ignore vehicle cover. Reread the rule, it is only when rolling to wound.
Making the nightwing much more survivable except against dark reapers who ignore jink.
   
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Thunderwolf39 wrote:
No weapons with the Ignores Cover rule actually ignore vehicle cover. Reread the rule, it is only when rolling to wound.
Making the nightwing much more survivable except against dark reapers who ignore jink.

And congrats on breaking things like cover saves in general.
There was very recently a thread on this in YMDC - suffice it to say that your opinion a) isn't the majority b) causes other issues in the rules c) doesn't actually have the rules support you think it does.

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Nightwing all day (and night) long. A few key things people are forgetting here:
1: You dont need to jink to get a cover save every time with filers. Find a tall building and you can get cover. That 2+ without jinking is very nice (4+ ruin with shrouded).

2: Vector dancer mathematically can hit the rear arch of any flier that came on the turn before it. 6 Shots S6 are better than 2 shots S8 when dealing with AV10. This is also a huge plus when dealing with ground vehicles

3: If they dont bring fliers, the nightwing is better than the crimson against every target type except 2+ with no inv/cover and 2+ FNP/multi-wound.

4: More and more things are able to ignore jink. The nightwing still gets a 5+ save from shrouded though.

5: Nightwing is cheaper

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Massachusetts

rigeld2 wrote:
Thunderwolf39 wrote:
No weapons with the Ignores Cover rule actually ignore vehicle cover. Reread the rule, it is only when rolling to wound.
Making the nightwing much more survivable except against dark reapers who ignore jink.

And congrats on breaking things like cover saves in general.
There was very recently a thread on this in YMDC - suffice it to say that your opinion a) isn't the majority b) causes other issues in the rules c) doesn't actually have the rules support you think it does.


Wow Rigeld. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I don't think you needed to tear into the "Fresh Faced New User" like that on a thread that isn't even about this ruling. You could have written that a little more politely.

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Lost in the Warp

 zephoid wrote:

2: Vector dancer mathematically can hit the rear arch of any flier that came on the turn before it. 6 Shots S6 are better than 2 shots S8 when dealing with AV10. This is also a huge plus when dealing with ground vehicles


As someone who uses flyers (and tons of them) on a regular basis, any half-skilled player who knows your flyer has vector dancer and the ability to shoot down their rear armor will be able to smartly position their flyer to prevent that.

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 Enigwolf wrote:
 zephoid wrote:

2: Vector dancer mathematically can hit the rear arch of any flier that came on the turn before it. 6 Shots S6 are better than 2 shots S8 when dealing with AV10. This is also a huge plus when dealing with ground vehicles


As someone who uses flyers (and tons of them) on a regular basis, any half-skilled player who knows your flyer has vector dancer and the ability to shoot down their rear armor will be able to smartly position their flyer to prevent that.


Given that he has to move at least 18" and the Nightwing can move up to 36" there is no hiding (unless there's enough terrain and or units to flood the field with places the Nightwing can't go).

EDIT:
I guess you could fly straight down from the edge 18" and cover the area behind it in units. The nightwing would find it hard to get a shot with any ofl its weapons on the rear then (assuming it arrives after the enemy flyer).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/17 21:07:27


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Lost in the Warp

 Shandara wrote:
 Enigwolf wrote:
 zephoid wrote:

2: Vector dancer mathematically can hit the rear arch of any flier that came on the turn before it. 6 Shots S6 are better than 2 shots S8 when dealing with AV10. This is also a huge plus when dealing with ground vehicles


As someone who uses flyers (and tons of them) on a regular basis, any half-skilled player who knows your flyer has vector dancer and the ability to shoot down their rear armor will be able to smartly position their flyer to prevent that.


Given that he has to move at least 18" and the Nightwing can move up to 36" there is no hiding (unless there's enough terrain and or units to flood the field with places the Nightwing can't go).

EDIT:
I guess you could fly straight down from the edge 18" and cover the area behind it in units. The nightwing would find it hard to get a shot with any ofl its weapons on the rear then (assuming it arrives after the enemy flyer).


Vector Dancer doesn't allow you to turn more than 90 degrees for your second move either. The majority of the time, unless their flyer is in your deployment/significantly past the middle line depending on the deployment type (which, the only common cases it would be would be Stormravens for their transport capability now, excluding Necron airforce, because that's a whole different ball game) you will never be able to maneuver to get a shot on their rear armor simply because the rear sector of flyers are so small compared to the flanks. My Vulture has Vector Dancer, and tempting as it is to use my twin-linked Punisher Cannons on other flyers' rear armor, I've yet to even once have the opportunity to do so in the games I've played with it.

Theoretically speaking, the only way to use Vector Dancer for rear-shots is if they are closer than 36" to your board edge flying down the center (which rarely happens), in reality it's more of around 24".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/17 21:21:00


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Against a flyer without vector dancer it doesn't matter where he flies straight down as long as stays the minimum (or as you say less than 22-24" inch.

You also get the 22,5 degrees swivel of your weapons (since they are hull-mounted).

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 Enigwolf wrote:
As someone who uses flyers (and tons of them) on a regular basis, any half-skilled player who knows your flyer has vector dancer and the ability to shoot down their rear armor will be able to smartly position their flyer to prevent that.


I agree with you somewhat but most flyers weapons are short ranged night scythe 24 inches helldrake is a torrent so vector dancer can become a factor, but the main point is str 8 with re-rolls against most flyers will be enough regardless.

   
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 Grugknuckle wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
Thunderwolf39 wrote:
No weapons with the Ignores Cover rule actually ignore vehicle cover. Reread the rule, it is only when rolling to wound.
Making the nightwing much more survivable except against dark reapers who ignore jink.

And congrats on breaking things like cover saves in general.
There was very recently a thread on this in YMDC - suffice it to say that your opinion a) isn't the majority b) causes other issues in the rules c) doesn't actually have the rules support you think it does.


Wow Rigeld. Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but I don't think you needed to tear into the "Fresh Faced New User" like that on a thread that isn't even about this ruling. You could have written that a little more politely.

I don't pay attention to post counts when posting. And I wasn't trying to be rude, it's just my normal bluntness coming through.
I didn't bring up the topic - he did, and I was willing to not respond further. But I do apologize if anyone was offended.
And with that ill bow out to keep the thread on topic. Feel free to PM me or ping a mod if I'm too rude.

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