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Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong, I've really enjoyed a lot of the books, but I'm not blind to a lot of the plot holes and silly elements of the series. I just have a relatively higher tolerance for such things than others, or rather can overlook them if enough of the content interests me.

I even powered through Fallen Angel's terrible prose because I'm actually interested in some of the characters and in how the plot will play out.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
The problem partly comes from how he treated the primarchs to begin with. He tried to walk a line between training them as obedient soldiers while being their 'father'.

He should have picked on role and stuck with it. Raise them as sons and let them help him how they wished, supporting their individual talents; like not forcing them all to be warriors.

Or train and command them as his military subordinates.

He didn't really get much chance to raise them though, one minute they were in their goldfish bowls happily floating away, next minute they are all grown up on some, in most cases, god forsaken armpit of a world where their lives have been hard and they have their own personalities.

If the Emperor had the chance to teach them and bring them up how he had wanted to I am sure that the family would not be as dysfunctional as it is or was.

From Deliverance Lost and the scene where Corax gets back to the Palace we can see that the Emperor had intended to bring all 20 Primarchs up on Terra.

You are right. I kind of forgot that whole mess lol.

Well, I still maintain he was a bad leader. Angron and Lorgar being the shinning examples.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
He had 18 boys. 1 boy is enough to make most men turn to the bottle what would 18 do?

21. 22 if you count Malcador, the Sigilite, and I do.

 kronk wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
He had 18 boys. 1 boy is enough to make most men turn to the bottle what would 18 do?

21. 22 if you count Malcador, the Sigilite, and I do.

Oh? Do tell.

It's never been in any fluff, but as Malcador, a human, is third (in the Imperium) in psychic power to The Emperor and Magnus (and apparently really old), I've heard it supposed on these forums that perhaps he's from the Emperor's stock or something. A rumor/suggestion/supposition that I'd like to believe, actually.

As for 21 children, at one time, the Emperor had 1 primarch for each legion (20 legions), with an extra for the Alpha Legion.

I think he was just too distant as a father to the primarchs. Especially after horus became warmaster.

Like my father, he just wasnt around . I kid but when the Emperor came as a savior to his "sons" then left them with out so much as a good bye to do his own stuff it hurt their cyberteically inhanced feelers. They have vissions of fishing trips and talking about girls instead got "Go claim some world in my name and be quick about it. Also dont forget to take out the trash."

The Emperor was nearly a genius. However he had so much on his mind (fighting a war, trying to fight the Chaos Gods nearly single handily, the advancement of humanity) that he simply did not have the time (or empathy needed) to deal with his children which means in the end, he was a horrible father

Void__Dragon wrote:It's like how Kor Phaeron has miraculously survived long enough to tempt Lorgar to Chaos, despite the fact that, when the Imperium made first contact with Lorgar's world, both the Emperor and Magnus the Red were in the man's direct presence. A cursory psychic glance in his direction, in-character for both of them, would have revealed his intent and nature. The merest shrug of psychic power would have ended that problem on the spot. Or how a powerful Daemon somehow managed to be physically present and under the radar on Nikaea, despite the three most powerful Imperial psykers in history being in attendance.

If the God Emperor had the power to read people's minds and character, I'm pretty sure he would've been so depressed that he never started the Imperium in the first place, much less started the Great Crusade.

IMHO, the God Emperor was a psychopath who was motivated by ambition and greed to enslave children, mutate them into eight foot tall supersoldiers, and use them to slaughter entire civilizations. I think his entombment was karma.

 LoneLictor wrote:
If the God Emperor had the power to read people's minds and character, I'm pretty sure he would've been so depressed that he never started the Imperium in the first place, much less started the Great Crusade.

Evidently not, because he had the power to do both. He even could force himself into Magnus the Red's mind. Aka, the second most powerful Imperial psyker, ever. In Descent of Angels, he forces himself into the mind of the protagonist and erases his memories. He does something similar to Kelbor Hal. Oh, and he telepathically forced the Word Bearers Legion to kneel before him, lol.

IMHO, the God Emperor was a psychopath who was motivated by ambition and greed to enslave children, mutate them into eight foot tall supersoldiers, and use them to slaughter entire civilizations. I think his entombment was karma.

He would suffer Antisocial Personality Disorder by human standards, but his goals seemed to be relatively noble.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
If the God Emperor had the power to read people's minds and character, I'm pretty sure he would've been so depressed that he never started the Imperium in the first place, much less started the Great Crusade.

Evidently not, because he had the power to do both. He even could force himself into Magnus the Red's mind. Aka, the second most powerful Imperial psyker, ever. In Descent of Angels, he forces himself into the mind of the protagonist and erases his memories. He does something similar to Kelbor Hal. Oh, and he telepathically forced the Word Bearers Legion to kneel before him, lol.

God, the Horus Heresy series just keeps getting worse and worse.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He would suffer Antisocial Personality Disorder by human standards, but his goals seemed to be relatively noble.

What was noble about them?

Angron
Lorgar
Not bothering to tell about the nature of chaos

Fatal mistakes that a supposed 38000 genius should not have made.

Magnus was 50-50 The emperor should have told magnus about the chair. Magnus should have remembered that he does not everything . Magnus destroyying the palace wards almost sealed eventual victory for chaos.

 LoneLictor wrote:

God, the Horus Heresy series just keeps getting worse and worse.

So why do you have a problem with the most powerful psyker in history being capable of... Reading minds?

What was noble about them?

He fully intended to step down and allow humanity to lead itself once he felt they were ready.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

God, the Horus Heresy series just keeps getting worse and worse.

So why do you have a problem with the most powerful psyker in history being capable of... Reading minds?

What was noble about them?

He fully intended to step down and allow humanity to lead itself once he felt they were ready.

Regarding the first question, yes. Psychic gak is unstable in 40k. Odds are if you reach into someone's mind and start sorting through their thoughts, you'll lobotomize them or leave them open to daemonic possession or just kill them. Secondly, the Emperor makes a gakton of mistakes. He makes Horus the Warmaster, for starters. If he could read minds, why the feth did he do that?

Secondly, eh, agree to disagree. I doubt he would've really stepped down.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Regarding the first question, yes. Psychic gak is unstable in 40k. Odds are if you reach into someone's mind and start sorting through their thoughts, you'll lobotomize them or leave them open to daemonic possession or just kill them.

This is not true. Psykers considerably weaker than the Emperor can read minds with small risk of ill effects.

Secondly, the Emperor makes a gakton of mistakes. He makes Horus the Warmaster, for starters. If he could read minds, why the feth did he do that?

Horus was the most capable of all the Primarchs in terms of leading armies. You forget that it took hefty Chaos assistance to lead to Horus' fall.

Secondly, eh, agree to disagree. I doubt he would've really stepped down.

Malcador seems to believe otherwise. Who would know better than Malcador?

When Horus was made Warmaster he was fine. It was at Davin it became. When some priest went all Inception on his brain and.made him believe crazy thoughts. When made Warmaster he was perfect for the role.

I think the Emperor was just a big stinky liar-face. I doubt he was even nearly as old as he said. His arrogance probably rubbed his children wrong too, especially after they were separated from him so long and had no reason to have a lot of familial loyalty.

I always thought he was so far beyond humanity that his entire life he had been revered and adored because he was seen as some sort of god figure. When the primarchs were made, they rivaled his magnitude of power, they didn't beat it, but they were also very far removed from humanity in how well they understood things. He had no clue wtf he was doing, an average human would look at him and simply follow his orders because he's practically a god so he became used to being followed, but to the primarchs he was a father and they didn't naturally ollow him. As with kids some were rebellious while others were more willing to accept his word. Basically he treated his sons like everyone else (saying the great crusade was more important than any personal issues. rather than treating them like his sons.) He wasn't a bad person, he just wasn't prepared for the task.

He believed himself to be infallible.

I think of the emperor like some ancient Vampire, lost touch with his humanity, no emphaty, and us humans are just tools for his means, like the vorlons and shadows in Babylon 5

 Deadshot wrote:
When Horus was made Warmaster he was fine. It was at Davin it became. When some priest went all Inception on his brain and.made him believe crazy thoughts. When made Warmaster he was perfect for the role.

Horus was already somewhat miffed by the entire situation. He felt abandoned to a degree. The emperor basically gave him the keys to the shop, then ran out the back. For being the closest to the Emperor, he was likely the most bothered by the Emperor's absence following Ullanor.

Ultimately, a lot of it is just the overall communication and trust issues present between the Big E and his boys. He didn't seem to recognize that his sons were not like him, and were more like the humans they were defending. He was kind of the odd-man out, really.

Lorgar looks up to you as a source of inspiration and direction? Better censure him and tell him that everything has has accomplished thus far is a wrong. Nothing in history has ever shown that that kind of treatment can lead to bad stuff, right?

Magnus is on the cusp of discovering something he has no ability to deal with? Better tell him "Stay out of there" and then turn my back. Intelligent and inquisitive types always listen to instructions, right?

Perturabo grealy resents and hates what he's been relegated to? Tell him to deal with it, because it will never come back to bite ya in the ass, ya know?

To the keen observer, one would think that the Emperor WANTED the heresy to happen.

The emperor basically just trusted that, being adults, the primarchs could get language. together long enough to simply finish the job and conquer the galaxy. Quite an easy task seeing they were backed with an infinite amount of technology and humans for their army.

People always blame the emperor, and he isn't entirely blameless, but c'mon look what he was working with, some of the biggest social douche bags in the history of the human race.

Perturabo - no REAL excuse to go traitor at all
Horus - turned his back on someone he once viewed as a father for no REAL reason
Curze - too emo to function
Lorgar - who needs to believe in God that bad that he will lick the a*se of literally ANYTHING more powerful then him???

But I can understand

Angron, Magnus were screwed over
Fulgrim - demon really screwed him over

Angron, Fulgrim, Horus, Magnus and Mortarion wrre the only ones who hd what would be seen as somewhat acceptable.

Angron was crazy and enraged
Fulgrim was under influence
Horus was Inceptioned into believing in Chaos
Magnus was seemingly betrayed by the Loyalists Space Wolves under the Emperor when he was trying to help.
Mortarion felt he had no choice.

The others had reasons that are less acceptable.

Perturabo was simply a tantrum throwing littoe .
Lorgar was fighting under his faith.
Alpharius was apparently doing it to save the Imperium in the long run.
AndKurze was "serving justice" batman style in his eyes.

I don't necessarily agree with you guys on Fulgrim, certainly the Daemon had some impact on him, but Fulgrim was still in control of himself and only let the Daemon take over when he couldn't fully man up in the fight against Ferrus.

All decisions up to that point were Fulgrims with a little prod here and there to make him make the choice. It really comes down to his love of Horus and his persuasion to get him on side. The Chaos Codex and the Collected Vision series says that the manner in which Horus laid it on with Fulgrim made his fall one of the worst. Unfortunately the actual book in the HH series doesn't really do this justice.

So yes, under influence to an extent but it was mainly Fulgrim making the choices.

Fulgrim made the descisions, yes, but the Daemon had controll and was able to push him to make a descision the Daemon wanted him to, or in the case of Ferrus, outright took over.

 Deadshot wrote:
Fulgrim made the descisions, yes, but the Daemon had controll and was able to push him to make a descision the Daemon wanted him to, or in the case of Ferrus, outright took over.

Like I said, Fulgrim made the choices with a push and a prod from the Daemon, if the Daemon had had full control all the time then the Iron Hands fleet would have been fired on.

Personally, I like the quote from "Outcast Dead" which goes something like this "You know what the problem with being all powerful and omnipotent is? You can only be one at a time"

Some of the arguments put forward on this thread are like those about historical generals, if you are actually able to put yourself in their situation, with the knowledge they had, a lot of their supposedly stupid decisions become a lot more logical, 20/20 hindsight is all well and good but.....

And the Emperor was dedicated to species survival, that was his noble goal, and a pretty reasonable one at that.

As for those saying the Emperor was stupid for not telling people about Chaos, really? It can corrupt you just by knowing about it, it drives most people insane. Really only the Emperor and his probably actual offspring the perpetuals (most likely including the Sigillite) are able to handle the truth.

See Malcador's quote in "The Sigillite" about how he would severely ration out knowledge to a handful who could handle it.

BTW, Been playing since 2nd.

Nvrmind

Yes he most certainly did intend to open fire before someone gave him the sword, without his asking for it either, as you said