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I was wondering what all the Eldar players feel about basing your lists around Dire Avengers. They remind me a little of Grey Hunters. They seem to be the Eldar's all rounders, capable of both very good shooting and the ability to defend objectives. With bladestorm and battle focus, there's no doubt that they can put some decent firepower into their enemies at a fairly decent range. The shimmershield increases their durability somewhat and in close combat they look like they can withstand an assault thanks to counter attack, a high initiative and the exarch's ability to be frustrating in a challenge.

My main reservation however, is their durability. They do have the 5+ invul and an OK 4+ armour save but they're not really tough guys and definitely need a wave serpent to get them around. With that being said, does the cost of a full 10 man squad (I think they need to be run in squads of 10) in a wave serpent mean that there just wouldn't be enough points left over to spend on other units if you took 3 or 4 such squads? The more I look at their rules, the more I like them but I'm just not sure they're durable enough to base a list around.

Please let me have your thoughts.

I think 5 man squads in WS will be one of if not the most popular and competitive troops choices. As for 10 squads I just feel you do not get enough benefit over a guardian squad in that same WS. The range and survivability will not be an issue unless the opponent pops the WS at which point you would have been better served with more grav tanks or jetbikes.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
They remind me a little of Grey Hunters.

They shouldn't. They cost nearly as much as Grey Hunters aren't aren't even in the same ball park in terms of quality.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:
does the cost of a full 10 man squad (I think they need to be run in squads of 10) in a wave serpent mean that there just wouldn't be enough points left over to spend on other units if you took 3 or 4 such squads?

That's precisely what it means, and you've sussed out why they aren't good to build an army around.

If you're putting them in Wave Serpents anyway at that cost per squad, why not use Guardians? Same stat line now, better gun with the platform, Warlock can give them the 5+ cover that shimmershield sort of is.

I realise they aren't as good as grey hunters but they look to serve the same purpose when you consider their special rules and exarch powers.

As for 5 man squads, I just think their utility suffers and their durability is clearly diminished when compared to 10 man squads.

I was looking at Dire Avenger based ideas precisely because of their multi functional utility. The wave serpents provide the durability and are decent offensive tanks in their own right. Take a couple of guide/prescience seers and the DA can really shred opponents to pieces. But how many points do you need to invest in other 'necessary' units really?

I'm still not convinced that Guardians in a WS are just as good as Dire Avengers in a WS. When you're playing with a Mech unit like that, the extra 6" range is very important. With the Guardians, they're going to have to be at most 12" away. Against enemy infantry, that puts them only 6" away from being charged and, in practice, it'll probably be less. With Dire Avengers, that charge distance the enemy need is extended to 12", which is far, far harder to attain.

I really can't decide if Guardians are better or not.

10 Guardians with a Warlock is 125pts
9 Dire Avengers with an Exarch (Shimmershield) is 160pts

So what do you get for that 35pts?

6" range increase
Counterattack
4+/5++ over 5+
LD9 over 8

Pros of DA
Range
Armour
Leadership
Good anti assault abilities with the exarch and counter attack

Pro's of Guardians
cheaper
Can get Warlock powers (but with LD8 they are not reliable and one Perils means bye bye Warlock)
Can get Shrouded (again unreliably and vulnerable to ignore cover)
Heavy Weapon platform.

I still think I'd go with Dire Avengers for mechdar.

I always take a full squad of 10 (no excarch) in a wave serpent w/ TL SC. It adds up to 250 points, but I find that they are the ultimate bane of anything with a moderately good save—they shoot 20 S4 AP5 Rending shots, with 1.5 the normal range of the guardian defenders.

Lets say you are shooting at TEQ. You get 13.3 hits, which inflicts 6.7 wounds, and kills about 2 TEQs.

NOW, if you take them with a farseer (like me) with Guide (primaris) and hopefully doom (you have a 1/2 chance), you get 17.8 hits, inflicting 8.9 wounds and killing about 4 TEQs. Thats (usually) 160 points, which you just killed with 130 points of guys in 1 turn.

But, we forgot about the Wave Serpent. He gets 2 TL SC shots, which hits 1.8 times and inflicts 1.7 wounds, of which 1.2 are not saved with their invulnerable save. This totals to 208 points, which you killed with 350 points of guys in one turn.

Finally, many TEQs do not have and invulnerable save, so the previous 5.2 TEQs we killed is multiplied by 1.5 to get 7.8 TEQs killed. Deadly.

Overall, the boys in blue will (usually) get their points back over the course of the game, not to mention that they are a scoring unit and so therefore can claim objectives.

(Creds to MathHammer 40k)

Can't DAs operate reasonably well outside of the serpent?

I've been looking at running a squad or two on foot. They have the range, especially with battle focus, to threaten enemy infantry from pretty early on, and they can avoid assaults for the same reasons.

My only problem with them outside the serpent is that they are very vulnerable, and when they are in the serpent they are quite invulnerable. It also lets them zoom to the next target after they are done with the one they just [expletive].

for 250pts Id rather take for 233 pts 9 bikers with 3 shuri cannons with a biker warlock.

Better save (3+/3++ cover), better range with cannons, better shooting at the same range (12" twin linked plus jsj) better speed.

wave serpents are cool though!

They actually only do half as much as the earlier squad of DA did.

 wilsjur wrote:
They actually only do half as much as the earlier squad of DA did.

who does half as much of what?

the bikers can shoot the cannons until they close into catapult range, then in catapult range they do more shots than the avengers (21 vs 20, bwahahah) BUT they are all twin linked!

Good point my bad.

another thing is that I love the DA model, and they have better range (I know EJBs are faster)

im very happy with troops for elder wraiths (with seer) dires with or without serpent and guardian jetbikes are my favorite.

Guardians are good to but not my cup of tea (modelwise mostly)

Wraithguard tear up TEQs. 10 with D-scythes kill 10 TEQs (thats 400 points to you who don't know). 210 kills 400 (assuming each D-scythe gets 3 hits). In one turn (although if they're troops you have the one time HQ downpayment of 70 for a spiritseer).

Dire Avengers are *definitely* better than Guardians. For starters, the extra 6" allows you to comfortably pull off a trick that's very risky with Guardians - "kiting" your opponent. You can move up early on until you're just inside 18" range - then either just shoot, if you want to risk an 11/12" charge to get some extra Overwatch in as well, or shoot THEN use Battle Focus to move back 6" out of normal charge range, and still only a rare chance to be charged by bikes, jump packs and the like.
With Guardians, you always have to risk that charge to pull this off and against faster units you're much more likely to end up getting stuck in combat than not.

As well as this, with Counter Attack, better armour/invulnerable saves and an Exarch with power weapon in tow the Avengers are much better at holding their own if they DO get stuck in combat.

They have counter-attack?

Indeed they do now. Against foot-based marine lists that 18" range combined with Battle Focus is simply awesome. You keep them out of assault AND rapid fire range (fleet makes it even easier) and can slowly pull them closer, killing few each turn losing maybe one or two yourself. And this is without your long-range support that will help even more.

EDIT: one turn of 10 DA shooting should be roughly 4 marines dead if my Mathhammeris rigth

 shamikebab wrote:
I really can't decide if Guardians are better or not.

10 Guardians with a Warlock is 125pts
9 Dire Avengers with an Exarch (Shimmershield) is 160pts

So what do you get for that 35pts?

6" range increase
Counterattack
4+/5++ over 5+
LD9 over 8

Pros of DA
Range
Armour
Leadership
Good anti assault abilities with the exarch and counter attack

Pro's of Guardians
cheaper
Can get Warlock powers (but with LD8 they are not reliable and one Perils means bye bye Warlock)
Can get Shrouded (again unreliably and vulnerable to ignore cover)
Heavy Weapon platform.

I still think I'd go with Dire Avengers for mechdar.

Now remove that useless warlock and get the same damage output for almost half the price. Instead of getting out of a WS to injure and kite an enemy unit get out twice as many guardians and kill the enemy then and there then get back into the skimmer and go to the next target. Who needs to walk when you can ride.

Depends on what you're playing.

Mech = don't touch Dire Avengers

Infantry = take whatever units your army needs.

Eldar infantry works backwards from other armies. Instead of starting with your HQ and troops, you end with them to see how they supplement the special units you do want.

 ductvader wrote:
Depends on what you're playing.

Mech = don't touch Dire Avengers

Infantry = take whatever units your army needs.

Eldar infantry works backwards from other armies. Instead of starting with your HQ and troops, you end with them to see how they supplement the special units you do want.

Actually that is excellent advice. Except wraith lists.

 ansacs wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Depends on what you're playing.

Mech = don't touch Dire Avengers

Infantry = take whatever units your army needs.

Eldar infantry works backwards from other armies. Instead of starting with your HQ and troops, you end with them to see how they supplement the special units you do want.

Actually that is excellent advice. Except wraith lists.

Fair point

Well I still love the Boys in Blue

They're good in or out of serpents, but you want to mechanise other options first. 18" battle focus doubletap is strong. From a standing start they are 20"-30" range, likely to be around 26-28" most of the time, and that's healthy threat.

20 for 260 is pretty good.

Well, Dire Avengers can serve as a backbone in a Serpent of fury list. The Serpents move up, the Dire Avengers disembark using the Serpents as cover, and shoot the enemy. This worked quite well in previous editions, since the enemy had to go past the Serpents to charge the Avengers. Serpents were hard to hit in cc and so quite resilient in the game. Now skimmers are hit on 3+ if they moved and so Serpent of fury lost an edge. You basically don't want to expose the Serpents to the enemy in that way.

When faced with the choice of assaulting your troops or assaulting your serpents, the enemy probably will do the former.

IDK, Scytheguard are way more scary than a bunch of DA popping out to pew-pew. Losing the +1 shot from Bladestorm was quite harsh.

 soomemafia wrote:
I
EDIT: one turn of 10 DA shooting should be roughly 4 marines dead if my Mathhammeris rigth

No cover for the marines:
20 shots
13,34 hits
6,67 wounds, of wich 1,11 are rending
6,67 - 1,11 = 5,57 normal wounds = 1,85 casualties

1,85 + 1,11 = 2,96 dead marines

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:
I
EDIT: one turn of 10 DA shooting should be roughly 4 marines dead if my Mathhammeris rigth

No cover for the marines:
20 shots
13,34 hits
6,67 wounds, of wich 1,11 are rending
6,67 - 1,11 = 5,57 normal wounds = 1,85 casualties

1,85 + 1,11 = 2,96 dead marines

One sixth of hits are rends, not one sixth of all wounds.

So it's 6.67 wounds, 2.22 of which are rending.

4.44 regular wounds = 1.48 failed saves

1.48 failed saves + 2.22 rends = 3.6 total wounds

You aren't wiping out a squad or anything, but you can do some damage

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:
I
EDIT: one turn of 10 DA shooting should be roughly 4 marines dead if my Mathhammeris rigth

No cover for the marines:
20 shots
13,34 hits
6,67 wounds, of wich 1,11 are rending
6,67 - 1,11 = 5,57 normal wounds = 1,85 casualties

1,85 + 1,11 = 2,96 dead marines

You mean:
6.67 wounds, of which 4.44 are AP5 wounds and 2.22 are AP2 wounds
(4.44 / 3) + 2.22 = 3.7 dead marines

i shouldnt do math when i first wake up

Redemption is correct with the mathhammer.