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What happens if Magnus does not go to Terra but attempts to use conventional means to warn the emperor ?

Magnus is easily the most dangerous of all Primarchs .

If Magnus does not go to Terra that means that the palace wards dont get broken meaning that the emperor might take a more active role in the heresy.

Two extra legions for the loyalists.

Two? I'm assuming you're referring to the space wolves as the second one.

No, Emperor was immature little boy. He would not have listened any way.

More seriously, whole this warping was used due to lack of time. No conventional means was fast enough for it due to warp storms.

Well it would have still meant that the Thousand Sons would be loyalists.

Even then they have breached that dragonic degree it was still too harsh eradicating an entire planet for it. I mean, even their archenemy, space wolves though that that was too harsh of a punishment.

 Kain wrote:
Well it would have still meant that the Thousand Sons would be loyalists.

Not really - I thought Magnus had divined the approaching heresy through means he wasn't supposed to use (psychic powers).

So he still broke the Emperors edict and would have been punished accordingly. However, he would then have been at terra and the wolves wouldn't have been involved.

Would've worked out better for the imperium, but maybe not for Magnus.

Edit:Ninja'd, so quote added for clarity.

Magnus was willing to take a responsibility for that unfair decree which by all means should have caused an entire Prospero fleeing to eye of terror immediately. I mean, even after decree, planet's inhabitants was so used to psychic powers that it was completely ignored.


Emperor's response was first a greatest insult to Thousands sons and second, eradication of completely loyal chapter with all this planet's inhabitants. It was space wolves who had fired without a word on their so called brothers.

 Ernestas wrote:
Magnus was willing to take a responsibility for that unfair decree which by all means should have caused an entire Prospero fleeing to eye of terror immediately. I mean, even after decree, planet's inhabitants was so used to psychic powers that it was completely ignored.


Emperor's response was first a greatest insult to Thousands sons and second, eradication of completely loyal chapter with all this planet's inhabitants. It was space wolves who had fired without a word on their so called brothers.

That wasn't the Emperor's response though. The Emperor ordered Horus to have Leman Russ escort Magnus back to Terra for punishment. Horus, seeing an opportunity, told Russ that the Emperor had ordered the extermination of the Thousand Sons.

I think the thread is asking what would happen if the Thousand Sons remained loyal, so let's focus on that.

For the most part I don't think it would have changed anything. Horus was actively pitting legions against each other to remove obstacles, I doubt he would have just moved on with his plans while the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves were still operating as normal. He just would have found another way.

Ah, yes. Now I remember that particular part. Still, eagerness of which space wolves executed their purge bothers me still.


Btw: sending space wolves to be Thousands sons convoy and executioners if needed is still a grave insult to that chapter.

 Orblivion wrote:
For the most part I don't think it would have changed anything. Horus was actively pitting legions against each other to remove obstacles, I doubt he would have just moved on with his plans while the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves were still operating as normal. He just would have found another way.

There are two game changing changes

Horus has nobody on his side to counter Magnus Lorgar is the closest and even even he does not have the power that Magnus has.

Any legion that Horus sends against Magnus would be crushed in space as Magnus could have done to the space wolves but chose not to to atone for wrecking the wards of the imperial palace..

Which leads to the second game changer magnus not destroying the wards means that the emperor does not have to fight daemons trying to invade the palace meaning that the Emperor might take a more active role in the Heresy and go after the traitors.

Downside for magnus is that tzeentch will most certainly nullify the deal that was made with Magnus meaning that his Thousand Sons will mutate when the use warp power.

godking wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:
For the most part I don't think it would have changed anything. Horus was actively pitting legions against each other to remove obstacles, I doubt he would have just moved on with his plans while the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves were still operating as normal. He just would have found another way.

There are two game changing changes

Horus has nobody on his side to counter Magnus Lorgar is the closest and even even he does not have the power that Magnus has.

Any legion that Horus sends against Magnus would be crushed in space as Magnus could have done to the space wolves but chose not to to atone for wrecking the wards of the imperial palace..

Which leads to the second game changer magnus not destroying the wards means that the emperor does not have to fight daemons trying to invade the palace meaning that the Emperor might take a more active role in the Heresy and go after the traitors.

Downside for magnus is that tzeentch will most certainly nullify the deal that was made with Magnus meaning that his Thousand Sons will mutate when the use warp power.

Horus isn't restricted to using fellow traitor legions against Magnus, he might have invited him to Isstvan or sent him in to a trap like he did with the Blood Angels. Regardless, the point I was trying to make was that Horus did not reveal his true colors until he felt that the largest obstacles between him and Terra were occupied. Its unlikely he would have made his move with two of those obstacles still operating as normal.

As to what the Emperor could have accomplished on the field of battle instead of stuck to the Golden Throne, I'm sure it would have had a huge immediate impact. However what you have to remember is that the Emperor is an idiot. It wasn't until the final moments of the heresy that he realized that it wasn't just going to magically resolve itself and he was actually going to have to do something.

 Ernestas wrote:
Emperor's response was first a greatest insult to Thousands sons

 Ernestas wrote:
It was space wolves who had fired without a word on their so called brothers.

Wrong on both counts.

Magnus was Tzeenches pawn - his fate was sealed when he made that deal and Tzeench would get to him anyway

Magnus is (in the Betrayer) neutral and still calculating; which means he is a
a.) giga duchebag and never loyal
b.) truly sinister
c.) hubris is still controlling him


IMHO he desereves every bit of pummeling like other traitors do (+ even more)...I would be funny to see relations between modern day "I" and Magnus (if he remanied loyal)....






Automatically Appended Next Post:

godking wrote:


Any legion that Horus sends against Magnus would be crushed in space

That was Tzeench's offering which Magnus rejected....




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orblivion wrote:


As to what the Emperor could have accomplished on the field of battle instead of stuck to the Golden Throne, I'm sure it would have had a huge immediate impact. However what you have to remember is that the Emperor is an idiot. It wasn't until the final moments of the heresy that he realized that it wasn't just going to magically resolve itself and he was actually going to have to do something.

dude

PredaKhaine wrote:
Not really - I thought Magnus had divined the approaching heresy through means he wasn't supposed to use (psychic powers).

That is true only in the most technical sense.

The vision was not something Magnus actively attempted, it occurred without his consent.

Sanguinius also had visions after Nikaea, yet was never punished for it.

Granted, he also used his psychic powers in other ways freely, so...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
Emperor's response was first a greatest insult to Thousands sons

 Ernestas wrote:
It was space wolves who had fired without a word on their so called brothers.

Wrong on both counts.

Actually the second account is factually correct, assuming I understand him right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Magnus was Tzeenches pawn - his fate was sealed when he made that deal and Tzeench would get to him anyway

Magnus is (in the Betrayer) neutral and still calculating; which means he is a
a.) giga duchebag and never loyal
b.) truly sinister
c.) hubris is still controlling him

Yeah man, him being hesitant to outright work against the Imperium militarily is incredibly sinister and horrible of him. What a truly monstrous individual.

In any case I think that if Magnus remained a loyalist and the Space Wolves were present for Terra, the Emperor may have remained ambulatory. How this would have changed things is anyone's guess.

Horus seemed to believe they posed a significant threat.

I think that even if the Thousand Sons had remained loyal, Tzeentch would have gotten a Legion somehow, whether the Raven Guard, like in the Dornian Heresy, or some other legion. The god of Just as Planned wouldn't leave himself at a disadvantage for long.

IIRC, Magnus talked about how conventional means wouldn't have reached the Emperor in time. Also, the Thousand Sons wouldn't have been able to fight for the Imperium anymore because Tzeentch would stop protecting them and they would mutate en masse.

 Flanker wrote:
IIRC, Magnus talked about how conventional means wouldn't have reached the Emperor in time. Also, the Thousand Sons wouldn't have been able to fight for the Imperium anymore because Tzeentch would stop protecting them and they would mutate en masse.

I've read somewhere explanation from Mcneil (oe some other BL author, I'm not so sure) ; something how instant warping was a mean Cyclop's intended to show Empy how Edict was wrong, and to clean his cheek in the process....On top of Horus thingy ofc....

I say perfect Tzeench's plot - he gives you means and hope, you end up with full scale daemonic invasion....

If Magnus does not warn the Emperor psychically, the Thousand Sons would have remained in the Loyalist camp. Horus wouldn't have twisted the Emperor's order to Russ and we would have had more Space Wolf involvement.

Horus may have never made it to Terra, having the Wolves and Thousand Sons to tussle with.

 Grey Templar wrote:
If Magnus does not warn the Emperor psychically, the Thousand Sons would have remained in the Loyalist camp. Horus wouldn't have twisted the Emperor's order to Russ and we would have had more Space Wolf involvement.

Horus may have never made it to Terra, having the Wolves and Thousand Sons to tussle with.

I'm pretty sure Tzeench wouldn't agree to that...
He had one-eyed on a string moment he bargained for knowlege...

If Magnus hadn't tried to warn the Emperor via the ritual, the Emperor wouldn't have sent the Wolves after him.

Which means that both the Wolves and the Sons would have been free to join the Loyalists side. The Wolves alone, fighting the traitors at full strength, would have been enough to easily turn the tide against Horus. Throwing the 1KSons into the mix would have sealed the deal.

Eh, since the orders are coming from Horus anyway, he would have found another way.

Okay, let's assume Magnus didn't follow his nature, and didn't make the attempt to warn the Emperor. Horus still had a conversation with aetheric Magnus when he was beyond the veil on Davin. He could just tell Russ, "Hey, man, Magnus used some crazy psychic magic sorcery to appear to me and tried to convince me of all sorts of terrible things. He violated the decree! And you remember what the Emperor said he'd do if anyone violated the decree."

Russ would have believed him and acted according to his nature. In the Index Astartes version of these events, Magnus was able to deliver his entire warning to the Emperor while Russ was present, and Russ convinced the Emperor that Horus was a stand-up mensch and Magnus should be exterminated for sedition..

Darthmarko's reading of his character in Betrayer is, as always, biased. Don't feed the troll.

I don't think Russ would have attacked the Thousand Sons solely on Horus' command. Yes, the rank of Warmaster carries a massive amount of power, but the Wolves are still the Emperor's executioner, not Horus'. I think that, at the least, Russ would have asked Horus to either provide empirical evidence of Magnus' wrong doings, or get the Emperor to back up his command. Horus would have been able to do neither.

 Omegus wrote:
Eh, since th orders are coming from Horus anyway, he would have found another way.

Okay, let's assume Magnus didn't follow his nature, and didn't make the attempt to warn the Emperor. Horus still had a conversation with aetheric Magnus when he was beyond the veil on Davin. He could just tell Russ, "Hey, man, Magnus used some crazy psychic magic sorcery to appear to me and tried to convince me of all sorts of terrible things. He violated the decree! And you remember what the Emperor said he'd do if anyone violated the decree."

Russ would have believed him and acted according to his nature. In the Index Astartes version of these events, Magnus was able to deliver his entire warning to the Emperor while Russ was present, and Russ convinced the Emperor that Horus was a stand-up mensch and Magnus should be exterminated for sedition..

Darthmarko's reading of his character in Betrayer is, as always, biased. Don't feed the troll.

And you are not?
What did I say wrong ? I still don't understand; if the guy isn't "forced" (wink,wink) into going chaos...What then ? Tell me genius ? Give me your bias then...Safe distance from Horus, safe distance from IoM ?
What then ? ADB said new book will reveal his ultimate "joining to the traitors", which is pretty lame because they crapped the whole tragic hero story IMHO... Well I can even symp with the red guy until prospero - but there is also a giant freaking gap between character turning.....
Loyalists are not option (obvious) *now insert gap *but the traitors (and the guy who was responsible for his demise) YESSS...*sorry MODS for using a bad language*
i mean you don't join the guy who ordered kill command on you and your legion....This is why old fluff is better on this matter IMHO....

 Ernestas wrote:
Ah, yes. Now I remember that particular part. Still, eagerness of which space wolves executed their purge bothers me still.


Btw: sending space wolves to be Thousands sons convoy and executioners if needed is still a grave insult to that chapter.

I think the eagerness was two fold, if you look at the wolves they're all of 2 steps from falling straight into the skull throne. I like to think khorne threw them a bit of help and off he went a little to eager to hate the witch.

KILL MAIM BURN! - with wolves =D

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If Magnus does not warn the Emperor psychically, the Thousand Sons would have remained in the Loyalist camp. Horus wouldn't have twisted the Emperor's order to Russ and we would have had more Space Wolf involvement.

Horus may have never made it to Terra, having the Wolves and Thousand Sons to tussle with.

I'm pretty sure Tzeench wouldn't agree to that...
He had one-eyed on a string moment he bargained for knowlege...

It would be very Tzeentchy to support the Imperium against Chaos.

Magnus was Arrogant, and believed in his abilties and knew too little of what he was doing, especially the entities in the Warp beyond the veil. Lorgar does a pretty good job of taking him psychologically apart in several of the latest HH books.

The Emperor is probably more concerned with Magnus uncovering his own dealings with Chaos, as well as other entities, Void Dragon, Eldar Web-way etc.

Magnus is extremely powerful, but he is prone to indecisiveness and lacks a spine.

 Gharron wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
Ah, yes. Now I remember that particular part. Still, eagerness of which space wolves executed their purge bothers me still.


Btw: sending space wolves to be Thousands sons convoy and executioners if needed is still a grave insult to that chapter.

I think the eagerness was two fold, if you look at the wolves they're all of 2 steps from falling straight into the skull throne. I like to think khorne threw them a bit of help and off he went a little to eager to hate the witch.

KILL MAIM BURN! - with wolves =D

If you read Betrayer - You will see why the Wolves would never fall to Khorne, being Feral and Aggressive does not mean you have no self control, or you fall into bloodlust. A pack of Wolves is a group and their is control and leadership a pack leader and a hieracry, The World Eaters lose control and even their primarch does too. This book makes this very clear. The Wolves were never the "War Hounds".