Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/23 21:17:54
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
|
Ailaros wrote:I definitely agree with the idea that necron and tau are at the top. They were codices specifically written to break 6th ed rules.
After that, I couldn't say for sure, what with knowing nothing about new eldar, and little about demons. I'd certainly agree that CSM and IG are near, but not at the top. They're both solid codices, but having a single unit that people hyperventilate about isn't enough to make it a serious contender for strongest codex.
The one I'm a little curious about is why more people aren't saying grey knights. They're psykers in a psyker-ier edition, and psycannons and psyflemen dreads are basically what 6th ed exists to reward.
Grey Knights need a couple brain cells to rub together now to make them work, AND, their two most heinous shenanigans are no more. (Draigowing wound-allocation bull**** + MSU Purifyerwing)
Since they're no longer the easy button that hard-counters half the game, the creeps have moved onto the new latest & bestest filth like the Flying French Bakery or Necrons w/ GK's/ CSM's/ IG, etc...
While almost everyone claims to want balance, few people actually do. What people want most of all is to win and to have their chosen army gain the biggest crutch to give them best possible advantage...
Look at how many GK players last edition called Daemons/Tyranids/ BA's/Templars/Orks a bunch of whiners... Or how 4th ed Eldar players called everyone else whiners when the Flying Circus was 'The List'... and so on and so forth.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/23 23:48:16
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
The problem with GK in 6th is low model count. Helturkeys are also quite rough on Strikes/Purifiers. I think Paladins and Dreadknights are the stars of that codex currently. Razorbacks + Henchmen arent as good as they used to be since Flyers (especially Scythes) are better in every way (generally will get to alphastrike and much harder to destroy).
|
Bee beep boo baap |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/23 23:53:56
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Morphing Obliterator
|
If chaos had access to the same armour the vanilla marines have then they would place higher in the rankings. Gw need to get rid of the bias they have consistently shown towards the imperials.
Seriously. Two troop choices, only one of them competitive , only three tanks with no variants allowed, and some wierd dragonchicken
That's called taking the p...
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/23 23:59:38
12000 pts
5000pts |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 02:38:35
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
tomcat31 wrote:If chaos had access to the same armour the vanilla marines have then they would place higher in the rankings. Gw need to get rid of the bias they have consistently shown towards the imperials.
Seriously. Two troop choices, only one of them competitive , only three tanks with no variants allowed, and some wierd dragonchicken
That's called taking the p...
Well... considering the CSM "dragonchicken" pretty much put an end to Marine lists, you can't complain too much.. At least you've got access to cheap troops who dont have to worry about having their pricey armor melted by a ridiculously durable, ridiculously fast fire-breathing turkey.
|
Bee beep boo baap |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 06:03:00
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
|
tomcat31 wrote:If chaos had access to the same armour the vanilla marines have then they would place higher in the rankings. Gw need to get rid of the bias they have consistently shown towards the imperials.
Seriously. Two troop choices, only one of them competitive , only three tanks with no variants allowed, and some wierd dragonchicken
That's called taking the p...
Tell you what? You give me Daemon Weapons and Juggernauts for my Templars and I'll trade you some Drop Pods and LRCs. No one needs to know about it.
|
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 06:11:02
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
LValx wrote:The problem with GK in 6th is low model count.
But that's a good thing in 6th. The current edition favors small, elite units over horde armies.
LValx wrote:Flyers (especially Scythes) are better in every way (generally will get to alphastrike and much harder to destroy).
In most games I've seen with GK as of late, it's included a 3x multimelta servitor (+ other stuff, usually two monkeys, who also have multimeltas) in a squad with a dude (usually coteaz) with prescience.
GK should have no problem with fliers.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 06:23:44
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Boom! Leman Russ Commander
|
IMO... Cron Air is the number one list ATM.
Nobody likes facing it. It's a rare list to see and as of right now, only the Tau can beat it consistently.
The thing about Drakespam is that a lot of armies can hard counter it. Terminator based armies just ignore them and Tyranids can have much larger creatures than what a Drakespam list can cope with.
|
Mr Mystery wrote:Suffice to say, if any of this is actually true, then clearly Elvis is hiding behind my left testicle, and Lord Lucan behind the right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 16:10:54
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
Taking tournament results, personal experience, and speculation on newer books into account:
1) IG- Even without FW, they have the best fliers, best troop options, and are the kings of the shooting phase in an edition that emphasizes shooting. Mainly, though, they are able to ally with damn near anyone and there is literally no army that is not made better with the addition of some guard.
2) Necrons- Similar to the guard situation, but with some major hand to hand weaknesses. A smart player will never let you reach assault with anything other than Wraiths, however. Tons of versatility and lots of good ally options. I can't see them winning consistently against a well built guard list, though.
3) Tau- Intercepting Ion Riptides added one of the final puzzle pieces this army was lacking. Their mere introduction into the metagame has rendered light armor cover save based strategies a crapshoot. Riptides are also just good enough in close combat to repel the few models that do make it through the hail of bullets. I don't like to make judgments on an army before at least a year of tournament data, but having played with the army a bunch I am just not seeing a weakness.
4) Space Wolves- JotWW is still broken as hell and a great way to get Slay the Warlord in every game, if you spam it. It is also a serious hard counter to a lot of the other top armies out there. Grey Hunters are still great. Long Fangs took a hit, but that's what Guard allies are for now. Their only weaknesses are covered cheaply and easily by allying either IG or Crons.
5) Grey Knights- Coteaz is still ridiculous. Storm Ravens are still solid, especially in an era with a lot of psyker warlords. Paladins are still damn hard to kill, especially with all of their psychic support toys. All they really lost in the edition transition were Razorspam, Psyflemen, and Purifier Spam. All of their other tricks remain intact and psybolt stormbolters are a really solid basis for am infantry gunline.
6) Space Marines (Vanilla)- Tons of ways to ignore cover saves give them a step up on some of the armies in this list. They are also still incredibly flexible, with some of the best priced Hamminators and solid bike army builds. They also have numerous strong special characters and (next to Jaws) one of the best psychic abilities in the game (Null Zone) for countering opposing cheese. Beyond that, they have amazing options for ally choices. I am not surprised at how many top tens have included vanilla marines in them, honestly. Its just no one likes playing generic marines, so you see less of them.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 16:23:07
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
1: Necrons
2:Tau
3: Daemons
4: Imperial Guard
5: Eldar
6: Better build's of the power Armour books.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 16:38:50
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
|
Phazael wrote:Taking tournament results, personal experience, and speculation on newer books into account:
1) IG- Even without FW, they have the best fliers, best troop options, and are the kings of the shooting phase in an edition that emphasizes shooting. Mainly, though, they are able to ally with damn near anyone and there is literally no army that is not made better with the addition of some guard.
2) Necrons- Similar to the guard situation, but with some major hand to hand weaknesses. A smart player will never let you reach assault with anything other than Wraiths, however. Tons of versatility and lots of good ally options. I can't see them winning consistently against a well built guard list, though.
I'd actually swap these, if not have IG even a little further down. IG vendettas are definitely over armored, undercosted and in the wrong FoC slot, but won't make or break a game in the same consistent manner as a Heldrake can (not being on the board turn 1 for the alpha-strike is really helpful for mitigating their usefulness)
IG troops aren't that great, they're good, but not great. Platoons suffer from a lack of hitting power and bad Ld while the blob has been made less effective with 6E's rules, and with regards to HWS's are some of the least cost effective, most easily killed and easy to break units in the game. Vets are nice if you can get range but 6E has done much to break the usefulness of the Chimera, and Penal Legion troops are...well...yeah.
What IG really do is make incredible gap-fillers for other armies. They're certainly the best Ally.
Necrons meanwhile are practically purpose-built to 6E's rules. Tesla makes Snapshots almost as good as normal shots (a BS4 tesla weapon being forced to snapfire is still putting out a hit rate equal to a BS3 non-Tesla weapon, Twin Linking them equals a BS8 non-tesla weapon when firing snapshots) which synergizes very well with skimmers moving fast and engaging flyers and overwatch, Gauss takes absolutely wicked advantage of Hull Points. Meanwhile, Necron vehicles as a result of their high AV shields are much more resistant to Hull Point kills (and of course have extra HP's on their basic transport) and their universally increased rear armor takes some of the bite out of the hilariously punitive vehicle CC rules. The Necron CC units that anyone really cared about (the Canoptek units) actually came out better in 6E, while Necron Lords can dominate the new Challenge mechanic with Mindshackle Scarabs. Then, as Nightfight plays a more important role in the game, Necrons can manipulate that more than any other army out there (I've seen a couple games where the Necrons kept the opponent in NightFight the whole game). Necrons have excellent flyers as well, and their flyer transport ignores all the bad things about being a flyer transport
|
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 17:03:19
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
|
Wouldn't it just turn out to be
1. Grey Knights
2. Grey Knights
3. Grey Knights
4. Grey Knights
5. Grey Knights
6. Necrons
Internetz butthurt fades slowly. =p
|
I need to return some video tapes.
Skulls for the Skull Throne |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 18:00:36
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
|
LValx wrote: Lobukia wrote: LValx wrote:I think in 3 months or so, Tau will be number 1 on just about every list... mark my words!
...and three months after that they won't. Besides unbalanced monstrosities like 6th Ed Crons, 5th Ed GK, and the like, good codicies take 3 months to master, dominate for awhile, then fall off as people adapt. Look at BA, SM, SW, DE and such in semi recent 40k history. I think the Tau codex is more like them than the IG codex.
I disagree. I think GW accidentally made Tau too good. They have too many ways to break the meta. SMS ignoring cover and LOS is absolutely brutal. They can easily field an army that relies solely on very, very tough units to destroy (Skyrays, Broadsides with Drones/Commander and Riptides). Being able to strip cover off of Marines, Terminators and Xenos is very, very ridiculous. A good Tau list will have just about 0 weaknesses. They handle Flyers well due to the ability to grab Skyfire/Interceptor and Skyfiring Markerlights. They can handle hordes due to markerlights and SMS. Assault is pretty dead in the water as a good Tau player can force you to eat absurd amounts of overwatch, which can in turn be boosted with Markers.
I think once NOVA is done and over with, people will understand just how ridiculous Tau are. A pure Tau list won Killadelphia (which was very, very competitive) and just about all the Tau armies did well day 1 with most being in the 1st bracket.
How does one beat:
2x Ethereal
120 Kroot
3x Riptide
3x Pathfinder
3x Sky Ray
It's an incredibly well-rounded list that features very tough targets and a ton of alpha striking Kroot.
I think as a stand alone codex, Tau are certainly the best.
Tau are good, and very well internally balanced. A solid 'dex that will stay competitive for awhile (might be the next Orc codex)... but it will wax and wane just like BA and DE.
Things will come full circle soon. A drop pod SW, DA, or SM army will give that list some serious problems. 30 sternguard in DP will tear through this (Skyray, Riptides (hello poison), and all). I suspect once the new SM codex comes out (well within my projected 6 month rotation), it will rock to the Tau scissors. Grey Hunter Drop Spam already messes this up really well too. What's old will become new and the wheel of time turns, and codices come and pass.
|
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 20:46:39
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Lobukia wrote: LValx wrote: Lobukia wrote: LValx wrote:I think in 3 months or so, Tau will be number 1 on just about every list... mark my words!
...and three months after that they won't. Besides unbalanced monstrosities like 6th Ed Crons, 5th Ed GK, and the like, good codicies take 3 months to master, dominate for awhile, then fall off as people adapt. Look at BA, SM, SW, DE and such in semi recent 40k history. I think the Tau codex is more like them than the IG codex.
I disagree. I think GW accidentally made Tau too good. They have too many ways to break the meta. SMS ignoring cover and LOS is absolutely brutal. They can easily field an army that relies solely on very, very tough units to destroy (Skyrays, Broadsides with Drones/Commander and Riptides). Being able to strip cover off of Marines, Terminators and Xenos is very, very ridiculous. A good Tau list will have just about 0 weaknesses. They handle Flyers well due to the ability to grab Skyfire/Interceptor and Skyfiring Markerlights. They can handle hordes due to markerlights and SMS. Assault is pretty dead in the water as a good Tau player can force you to eat absurd amounts of overwatch, which can in turn be boosted with Markers.
I think once NOVA is done and over with, people will understand just how ridiculous Tau are. A pure Tau list won Killadelphia (which was very, very competitive) and just about all the Tau armies did well day 1 with most being in the 1st bracket.
How does one beat:
2x Ethereal
120 Kroot
3x Riptide
3x Pathfinder
3x Sky Ray
It's an incredibly well-rounded list that features very tough targets and a ton of alpha striking Kroot.
I think as a stand alone codex, Tau are certainly the best.
Tau are good, and very well internally balanced. A solid 'dex that will stay competitive for awhile (might be the next Orc codex)... but it will wax and wane just like BA and DE.
Things will come full circle soon. A drop pod SW, DA, or SM army will give that list some serious problems. 30 sternguard in DP will tear through this (Skyray, Riptides (hello poison), and all). I suspect once the new SM codex comes out (well within my projected 6 month rotation), it will rock to the Tau scissors. Grey Hunter Drop Spam already messes this up really well too. What's old will become new and the wheel of time turns, and codices come and pass.
Don't take offense to this. But you have no idea what you are talking about. With 120 Kroot you can literally flood the table, spread out and force the drop pods to come down in places where their only efficient, or only target at all, is Kroot. The return fire will then pummel you (markers, ions, etc). I know because I've played that list (and other Tau lists) vs. Drop Pod based lists. Space Wolves with mass marines (50 dropping on turn 1) and Vulcan. It doesnt work because the Tau can bubble wrap too well with infiltrate. Hell, vs the SW list I managed to kill over 30 Grey Hunters in one shooting phase because he underestimated just how many wounds I could cause with return fire.
Neil Gilstrap lost to that list at the top table during Killadelphia. He specifically brought SW allies with his Tau in order to counter opposing Tau (as well as Crons and Nids). The player piloting the Tau (Gonyo) simply infilitrated his Kroot so that Neil couldn't Jaws or engage any valuable targets.
What you said would hold true, if there weren't 120 infantry bodies ready to clog up your dropping spots.
I highly doubt SM with "rock" Tau, unless they receive an amazing air combatant flyer ( SMs need to be able to counter Heldrakes, or they are near unplayable) and Marines that are cheaper than any other codex. Currently 3+ saves are just too pricey. Tau can lay down an unfathomable amount of anti-infantry firepower and while it may not be AP3, forcing enough dice rolls will see your marines drop like flies.
|
Bee beep boo baap |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 22:13:45
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
Hell, why even bother with the Kroot Carpet? A couple well placed Ion Accelerator blasts with Interceptor from the Ripsnort suits pretty much send any pod army packing. One unit of Pathfinders turn any cover based unit into a complete non-entity, assuming the other guy is not already spamming SMS (which is what I have been doing). Couple that with a staggered deployment that punishes anyone who makes it to assault with support fire, and its basically an autowin against anyone playing the assault based game. The shooting wars end up being a contest of who brought the more efficient shooters, which Tau generally are better at, or who got first turn.
My experiences mirror LValx. Automatically Appended Next Post: PS- Also, Helldrakes don't bother Tau very much, so maybe there will be a cut down in Tripple Helldrake lists in the meta as a result of Tau being introduced.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/24 22:15:59
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 22:23:15
Subject: Re:without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Let's be honest, for most non power armor armies all the helldrake turns out to be is a ridiculously tough flying heavy flamer.
|
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote:Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 22:38:21
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Phazael wrote:Hell, why even bother with the Kroot Carpet? A couple well placed Ion Accelerator blasts with Interceptor from the Ripsnort suits pretty much send any pod army packing. One unit of Pathfinders turn any cover based unit into a complete non-entity, assuming the other guy is not already spamming SMS (which is what I have been doing). Couple that with a staggered deployment that punishes anyone who makes it to assault with support fire, and its basically an autowin against anyone playing the assault based game. The shooting wars end up being a contest of who brought the more efficient shooters, which Tau generally are better at, or who got first turn.
My experiences mirror LValx.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS- Also, Helldrakes don't bother Tau very much, so maybe there will be a cut down in Tripple Helldrake lists in the meta as a result of Tau being introduced.
Yeah, I didnt even mention interceptor.
But Kroot are great, they are cheap and can make very, very good use of the Ethereal and Markers. I prefer them to FW by a wide-margin, but as always YMMV.
|
Bee beep boo baap |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 22:46:29
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Evasive Pleasureseeker
Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto
|
Phazael wrote:Hell, why even bother with the Kroot Carpet? A couple well placed Ion Accelerator blasts with Interceptor from the Ripsnort suits pretty much send any pod army packing. One unit of Pathfinders turn any cover based unit into a complete non-entity, assuming the other guy is not already spamming SMS (which is what I have been doing). Couple that with a staggered deployment that punishes anyone who makes it to assault with support fire, and its basically an autowin against anyone playing the assault based game. The shooting wars end up being a contest of who brought the more efficient shooters, which Tau generally are better at, or who got first turn.
My experiences mirror LValx.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS- Also, Helldrakes don't bother Tau very much, so maybe there will be a cut down in Tripple Helldrake lists in the meta as a result of Tau being introduced.
Daemons are pretty rough match-up for Tau, or rather, Beast-rush Daemons are a nice hard-counter.
Sooooo many psychic shenanigans from Divination + Biomancy on top of large units of multi-wound beasts that have a T5 tanker in the lead to eat the S8-9 shots for a bit... And the 'ol allying in a Farseer + 5 Avengers to laugh at all psykers doesn't work anymore thankfully.
Even a Tau gunline isn't capable of gunning down the large blobs of Seekers + 2x Flesh Hounds before they hit home. And Krootcarpet folds without too much hassle since Daemons just laugh at naked T3 assault units.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/24 22:46:47
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
|
LValx wrote:
Don't take offense to this. But you have no idea what you are talking about. With 120 Kroot you can literally flood the table, spread out and force the drop pods to come down in places where their only efficient, or only target at all, is Kroot. The return fire will then pummel you (markers, ions, etc). I know because I've played that list (and other Tau lists) vs. Drop Pod based lists. Space Wolves with mass marines (50 dropping on turn 1) and Vulcan. It doesnt work because the Tau can bubble wrap too well with infiltrate. Hell, vs the SW list I managed to kill over 30 Grey Hunters in one shooting phase because he underestimated just how many wounds I could cause with return fire.
Neil Gilstrap lost to that list at the top table during Killadelphia. He specifically brought SW allies with his Tau in order to counter opposing Tau (as well as Crons and Nids). The player piloting the Tau (Gonyo) simply infilitrated his Kroot so that Neil couldn't Jaws or engage any valuable targets.
What you said would hold true, if there weren't 120 infantry bodies ready to clog up your dropping spots.
I highly doubt SM with "rock" Tau, unless they receive an amazing air combatant flyer ( SMs need to be able to counter Heldrakes, or they are near unplayable) and Marines that are cheaper than any other codex. Currently 3+ saves are just too pricey. Tau can lay down an unfathomable amount of anti-infantry firepower and while it may not be AP3, forcing enough dice rolls will see your marines drop like flies.
Well, I think I will take offense to that. Granted, I'm no Neil. But neither are most opponents Gonyo. What I would have done, if my opponent took all available landing zones and bubble wrapped well is either suicide drop to clear zones for the reinforcements, or just walk on the board (and who knows, maybe that still wouldn't work). But your post plays to my point. That Tau list is a gimmick, not leafblower. It worked, and will on people running lists that haven't seen it work before. However, it can be countered, it can be planned for, and its not going to be the tournament list of choice in 6 months. The meta will shift and Tau will be blunted.
Just because one list beat another once, doesn't make it a done deal (otherwise, why play the games and why use dice?). I'd love to see Neil play again, after hearing his comments, I think he could do much better. Let him tweak and go and he might make a better run of it. A trap game does not a legacy make. Didn't for BA, DE, or SM, and it won't for Tau.
|
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/25 00:25:08
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
That list isn't a gimmick though. It's an incredibly well-rounded list that features no obvious weaknesses. It can handle hordes, mech, elite infantry, flyers and fast assault armies. The Kroot provide a nice bit of flexibility as they can be used as bubble wraps, to clog the field or to hit weak flanks.
If you land and attempt to kill Kroot, you'll be using your units in a less efficient manner than they were designed for as your special weapons won't have good targets. Theres also the issue of being able to GTG, then boosting your snapshots.
And since you listen to Neil, you probably know that he also finds Tau to be a bit over the top. Most of the players who've played good Tau lists that i've spoken to feel the same way.
It's those sorts of tricks that make Tau a bit too good. They can circumvent some of the core rules of 6th, either through unique weapons ( SMS), the ability to get cheap upgrades nearly army wide (Interceptor) and then of course the ability to strip cover saves at range and boosting snapshots with Markers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ohhh.. And supporting fire. Automatically Appended Next Post: Experiment 626 wrote: Phazael wrote:Hell, why even bother with the Kroot Carpet? A couple well placed Ion Accelerator blasts with Interceptor from the Ripsnort suits pretty much send any pod army packing. One unit of Pathfinders turn any cover based unit into a complete non-entity, assuming the other guy is not already spamming SMS (which is what I have been doing). Couple that with a staggered deployment that punishes anyone who makes it to assault with support fire, and its basically an autowin against anyone playing the assault based game. The shooting wars end up being a contest of who brought the more efficient shooters, which Tau generally are better at, or who got first turn.
My experiences mirror LValx.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS- Also, Helldrakes don't bother Tau very much, so maybe there will be a cut down in Tripple Helldrake lists in the meta as a result of Tau being introduced.
Daemons are pretty rough match-up for Tau, or rather, Beast-rush Daemons are a nice hard-counter.
Sooooo many psychic shenanigans from Divination + Biomancy on top of large units of multi-wound beasts that have a T5 tanker in the lead to eat the S8-9 shots for a bit... And the 'ol allying in a Farseer + 5 Avengers to laugh at all psykers doesn't work anymore thankfully.
Even a Tau gunline isn't capable of gunning down the large blobs of Seekers + 2x Flesh Hounds before they hit home. And Krootcarpet folds without too much hassle since Daemons just laugh at naked T3 assault units.
Daemons are very, very bad against Tau (unless the Tau list is poorly built). Ordo Bob, who posts on here as Malagant, is a well-know Daemon player from the East Coast. His list is quite fearsome, 3 Soul Grinders, 2 big Khorne dog squads and a large Seeker squad backed up by Daemonettes and Horrors. I've seen him play Neil Gilstrap's Tau a few times and each time it has been a very one-sided affair in the favor of Tau.
My own experiences playing Tau mirror this. Tau simply pack too much firepower and the ability to bubble wrap with Kroot (very hard for Daemons to remove the bubblewrap due to GTG), means you'll often be eating a TON of overwatch.
I don't think assault is a viable tactic vs. Tau, at all.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/25 00:30:19
Bee beep boo baap |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/25 06:47:51
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard
|
To quote Neil Gilstrap
"Tau are good, not crazy good... some people think they're broken, but they're not... "
GW wants to make $$. Just like the anti-Cron Air and anti-Baledrake codex made them serious scratch, the PA have yet to really arrive in force.
We've got SM, BA, SW, GK, BT?, etc all coming down the pipe. Nothing will make them sell better than putting a boot on the back of the Tau's head and pulling the trigger. Who knows, maybe orks will be able to assault off the outflank (or White Scars). GW let the Crons, IG, and CSM air rule for awhile, and has now cashed in on the hate for tough flying lists... next up, take down the Tau... mark my words, this is the cycle and how it works since the first codices came out (yeah, I've been playing that long, longer in fact).
Look I love the tau. My own Kroot Spam/Missile side list with an ADL/Quad is rocking it. But GW's too greedy/smart to not shift the meta again while spamming out these new books. Especially right before Christmas. Sorry guys, evil marketing overlords will fry your fish-heads for the holidays.
|
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+
Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2
One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/25 13:20:38
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I dont think GW thinks about the meta at all.. If so I don't think they would have released the Heldrake, due to it invalidating their biggest cash cows.
I've seen Neil say some things that were more than just good. And i'm not sure they are fully broken, just a little too good. Definitely good enough to be the best army or top 3 for a while to come.
Think about it this way. Look at the responses of people in this thread and look at how many of them have Necrons at the top. They've been there since the end of 5th. I think Tau will be top of the pile for a long time. It's a shooty edition and they are the shootiest army. I don't think any SM will change that because they are all generalists. They pay a premium for a semblance of assaulting ability.
|
Bee beep boo baap |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/25 16:41:51
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Dakka Veteran
|
Yeah have to mirror the whole Daemons getting wtfpwnt by Tau thing. I don't even do the Kroot Carpet in my army, just lots of FW with a Cadre. The beast units end up getting tar pitted by the Riptides in close combat and support fire and markerlights takes out the rest of the trash. Misslesides also are pretty unfriendly to Daemons.
I also want to toss my other favorite trick out there, since it is relevant to the Daemon matchup, which are Stealth Suits with Precision Shot. This is pretty much how I deal with enemy psychers. One unit of these guys infiltrated near the unit bunkering the psycher and he usually gets one rounded by them, especially the daemonic ones with low T and moderate saves. If I really want to apply the hurt, I send in the riptides to help out and I can reliably delete large horror units outright. Its also great for removing special weapons and other specialist models. My Misslesides are squad leaders for the same reason, as 8 precise shots with 30"+ range contributes to the annoyance, letting me snipe out Jaws guys from miles away, especially when backed by Markerlights.
The Tau book is really ridiculously good, especially if you are smart with deployment and target selection.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/06/25 17:00:37
Subject: Re:without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
That's pretty smart (or at least troll worthy, get your tearcup!)...take a unit of stealth suits and give them all the support system that lets them make precision shots.....
mind = blown!
|
Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!
BrianDavion wrote:Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.
Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/06 23:07:16
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Frenzied Berserker Terminator
|
Excellent discussion do far boys, let's keep thus thread alive!!!
|
" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010 |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/07/07 02:05:09
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
|
LValx wrote:
I highly doubt SM with "rock" Tau, unless they receive an amazing air combatant flyer ( SMs need to be able to counter Heldrakes, or they are near unplayable) and Marines that are cheaper than any other codex. Currently 3+ saves are just too pricey. Tau can lay down an unfathomable amount of anti-infantry firepower and while it may not be AP3, forcing enough dice rolls will see your marines drop like flies.
Well, you don`t think storm talons or *cringe* Stormravens can`t counter helturkies? Stormravens are aleady established as one of the best flyers in the game, and talons are cheap for what they do, and you dont necessarily have to roll for it in reserves
C: SM is a pretty good codex. While the top tier armies have lots of game changing whistles and bell, this dex has good troops that have solid rules, and their support options are pretty good, as well as their flyers
|
Blood Ravens 2nd Company (C:SM)
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/09 22:18:25
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Morphing Obliterator
|
AlmightyWalrus wrote:tomcat31 wrote:If chaos had access to the same armour the vanilla marines have then they would place higher in the rankings. Gw need to get rid of the bias they have consistently shown towards the imperials.
Seriously. Two troop choices, only one of them competitive , only three tanks with no variants allowed, and some wierd dragonchicken
That's called taking the p...
Tell you what? You give me Daemon Weapons and Juggernauts for my Templars and I'll trade you some Drop Pods and LRCs. No one needs to know about it.
Daemon weapons got nerfed in the new codex. Now we have a choice of five. Four of which require a specific mark. I believe the relic blade given to vanilla marines carries pretty much the same advantages. Yet again chaos gets shafted. Point in case. No monstrous walker.... Dreadknight, centurion. Etc
Plus...berserkers counted as elite. Nope. Too unpredictable. Not worth playing.
God specific troops should be just that. TROOPS. Anything else is just gw enforcing the imperial truth.
P.s I play iron warriors so its not just bitching for advantage
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/09 22:27:25
12000 pts
5000pts |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/09 22:28:47
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Locked in the Tower of Amareo
|
Stand alone? Or allied combos?
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/09 23:36:02
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
|
My opinion, off the top of my head:
Champions league;
-Tau
-Eldar
-Necrons
-Deamons
Europa league;
-Imperial Guard
-Grey Knights
-White Scars
Mid table finish;
-Other c:sm equivalents
-SoB (this is going off recent threads - I have no idea as to their capabilities)
-Chaos space marines (only because of the hell turkey and nurgle)
-Space wolves (drop pods)
Relegation candidates;
-Nids
-Orks
-Blood Angels
Sunderland;
-Dark Angels
Note all assault specialists are battling against losing Premiership TV rights. Although they have the potential to get parachute payments in their new dexes and come straight back up with the big boys. Obviously this list doesn't include forgeworld armies.
REALLY SURPRISED that so many people haven't put eldar higher!
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/09 23:46:28
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Stealthy Grot Snipa
|
If you look at the dates on the posts you might be less surprised.
|
"The Emporer is a rouge trader."
- Charlie Chaplain. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/09 23:59:24
Subject: without prejudice, what do you guys think the best armies at the moment are top 6
|
 |
Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
|
Haha didn't spot that!
|
|
 |
 |
|