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Hi guys, played my mate recently and he used a Wraithknight. I was space wolves. I cast jaws of the world wolf with my rune priest, and he rolled and failed his check. We at the time had not really read the rules right and he removed said wraitknight.

However later he suggested that as the wraithknight is able to jump it shouldnt have been removed (we didnt fall out over it dont worry, it was a test game)

However, I am not convinced and am sure he should have removed it as per the SW dex, however as it is a monstrous creature category model it would have suffered the loss of a point anyway?

I'm pretty sure it's a Jetpack Infantry too... so, JotWW wouldn't have worked.

Caveat: I don't have my ipad with me.

Unit types were reclassed in 6th and the immunities removed. It can only fail on a 6, but would be removed as a casualty.

Okay... cool. Question, why does it matter that it's "removed as casualty"?

It's different than instant death so an eternal warrior can still be removed by JoTWW.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
It's different than instant death so an eternal warrior can still be removed by JoTWW.

Oh. I didn't know that. THanks!

Yes, Jotww can be really great. Painfully so if you get two castings falling on a gunline.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
...the immunities removed.

Wait, what? When and where did that happen? Is my FAQ out of date?

Jump and Jet Pack are now sub-groups of the parent unit type (i.e. Infantry or Cavalry). As such as of right now anything that affects Infantry (for example) also affect Jump Infantry and Jet Pack Infantry (unless otherwise specified).

 Happyjew wrote:
Jump and Jet Pack are now sub-groups of the parent unit type (i.e. Infantry or Cavalry). As such as of right now anything that affects Infantry (for example) also affect Jump Infantry and Jet Pack Infantry (unless otherwise specified).

Yet another reason why my Space Wolf friend graciously never brings Rune Priests with this ability. This spell has to be hands-down one of the beardiest and poorly written rules in all of 5th Edition, and apparently continues on to 6th.

It is not horrible. I think when used on normal infantry like rank and file its just like a solid ap high S weapon. On a wraithknight as someone else said its an MC so only a 6 fails. That is a decently rare occurrence that I wouldn't consider JOTWW to be a good strategy to use against wraithknights. Now against some of the low I tyranid monsters it can become a bit over the top but most the games, JOTWW is just a spell that does some damage.

A regular weapon can't snipe a HQ out of a squad like jaws can, so your analogy of it being like any regular high S low ap weapon doesn't compare.

A regular weapon doesn't also completely destroy whole Tau/Necron armies and many of the best tyranid units.

Against Tervigons, most Nid players cry when I brkng JotWW.

so should it have worked or not then? Im getting confused guys sorry

Yes it should have.

thanks very much guys. Looks like I better start putting the rune priest in a land raider lol

No matter how much us low initiative players wish it didn't.

The rules on Page 47 informs us that these types of units follow the rules for both unit types. Therefore anything that affects infantry will also affect jump and jet-pack infantry, unless otherwise stated. Like wise anything that affects monstrous creatures will also affect jump and jet-pack monstrous creatures unless otherwise stated. This ability can affect both, so simply strapping a jump or jet-pack on doesn't make you safe.

With as high as 70% a success rate, there is a good reason that many of us devote everything to killing a rune priest the moment we suspect one has hit the table....

70%? That's not even close to it's success rate.
76% that it is cast, then with the inititive roll that spirals down from 63% with I1 to 12.66% with I5+.

Also a regular weapon can snipe a character it's called precision shots etc.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
70%? That's not even close to it's success rate.
76% that it is cast, then with the inititive roll that spirals down from 63% with I1 to 12.66% with I5+.

Also a regular weapon can snipe a character it's called precision shots etc.

You get LOS! against precision shots and they only happen on Characters anyway. It's a really poor comparison.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
70%? That's not even close to it's success rate.
76% that it is cast, then with the inititive roll that spirals down from 63% with I1 to 12.66% with I5+.

Also a regular weapon can snipe a character it's called precision shots etc.

You get LOS! against precision shots and they only happen on Characters anyway. It's a really poor comparison.

Or snipers, or a Riptide if you give it the right wargear upgrade.
But more importantly focussed witchfire powers do the exact same thing half of the time. Yes it's a little less frequent but hey I just have to show that there are other ways to snipe characters.

Nothing Snipes Characters quite like Jaws though and not that does so ignores EW... Show me something that snipes without having to roll and ignores EW and you'd have a point.

People saying it is not a good tactic against a Wraith Knight need their head testing. On a 3+ a 300 point model is gone no saves allowed. It only fails on a 6 if and only if Arjac hasn't thrown his hammer at it first...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Nothing Snipes Characters quite like Jaws though and not that does so ignores EW... Show me something that snipes without having to roll and ignores EW and you'd have a point.

People saying it is not a good tactic against a Wraith Knight need their head testing. On a 3+ a 300 point model is gone no saves allowed. It only fails on a 6 if and only if Arjac hasn't thrown his hammer at it first...

So it only fails on a 6, if you cannot do all of the following: buy another character, get him within 6", roll to hit successfully, roll to wound successfully and the wound isn't saved.... you're using at the very least 310 points of Arjac, a dp and a rune priest to make a go of killing a 300 point character in a very death or glory way.
Lots of things ignore EW, black mace, heroic stand(or whatever that GK power that nukes an enemy model is), sometimes weapons are hard to deal with. Jaws has been a known quantity for 4 years, if you've not gotten a method to deal with it at this stage you're doing it wrong.

I thought the I1 thing was in combat only ?

Yes lots of things ignore EW. Name anything that ignores EW and snipes characters without requiring a roll. Anything?

Yeah Jaws is a known quantity and has been for years. 6th Eds shift to less much has certainly helped it. It is a very good power. Not game breaking but situationally over powered against certain armies (mainly Tyranids that really don't need anything else going against them).

It doesn't cause me a problem at all. But it is a VERY good power and fits with a DP assault list exceptionally well.

Jaws does require a roll, in fact it requires more rolls than the GK power, which can snipe and just as many as the black mace's ability (both of these ignore EW and can be used to nail characters).

Okay I did overlook the whole psychic test part when I tried to do the math related to it. Your number of it being 63% success rate against an initiative 1 character is likely far more accurate with that taken into account. Still, that is a greater then 60% chance of you instantly removing any initiative 1 warlord in the game. That low of an initiative is not unheard of, particularly in armies that are vulnerable to jaws of the world wolf due to their already low initiative score. On top of being a serious threat to such models, it also has the benefit of doing collateral damage to other models on it's way to snipe the intended target. The power of Jaws of the World Wolf is very obvious, it is a special ability that pays off so very often that it would be insane not to take it every chance you get.

The only way you can honestly compare Jaws of the World Wolf to a shooting attack would require the creation of an elaborate situation. The target would have to be standing out in the open, with no other models in their unit, and a clear line of sight that doesn't pass through another unit. The weapon being fired would have to be one designed to give a tank a serious headache and be in the hands of a marksman that rarely misses. Then the target would have to have to be void of anything that grant invulnerability saves, feel no pain rolls or some other rule which could prevent wounds from being allotted. Also, if that wasn't enough, the target would also have to have a toughness lower then half the strength of the weapon or be void of eternal warrior as the intended target is likely a multi-wound model. The very fact we have to create such a situation is, in and of itself, telling to how this ability can not even come close to being compared to a shooting attack.

Personally, I don't think it has done anything wrong that needs defending in such a manor!

Jaws of the World Wolf may be one of the most powerful abilities in the game but it still is highly specialized. It would be ridiculous for it not to have a decently high chance of success when being used in the way it was clearly intended to be used: sniping low-initiative high-cost models. Outside it's use in a few 'cheesy' tactics that I won't get into, I honestly don't even consider it any more of a threat then the dozens on dozens of other things designed for highly specialized purposes. The fact it can target a specific limitation in one of my armies is something I actually respect it for, and reason why I will give the rune priests a high priority the moment I see one hit the table.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
70%? That's not even close to it's success rate.
76% that it is cast, then with the inititive roll that spirals down from 63% with I1 to 12.66% with I5+.

Also a regular weapon can snipe a character it's called precision shots etc.

You get LOS! against precision shots and they only happen on Characters anyway. It's a really poor comparison.

Well lets be fair the first targeted unit will get to DTW vs JoTWW

Jaws does require a roll, in fact it requires more rolls than the GK power

Doesn't require a roll to hit which both the mace and Heroic Sacrifice require. Neither of those can snipe characters as both are CC only. The Heroic Sacrifice requiring the model who is doing to have died, so can only ever be used since per game. Sorry trying to compare those two to Jaws is like comparing a thunder hammer to a vindicator...

How does it require more rolls that Heroic sacrifice?

Sacrifice has to start with your character dying:

Both take psychic test and resolve DtW. HS requires a roll to hit JotWW requires an initiative test. So it is the same but one doesn't require you to have died IN COMBAT whilst in base contact with the thing you need dead...

 FlingitNow wrote:

Jaws does require a roll, in fact it requires more rolls than the GK power

Doesn't require a roll to hit which both the mace and Heroic Sacrifice require. Neither of those can snipe characters as both are CC only. The Heroic Sacrifice requiring the model who is doing to have died, so can only ever be used since per game. Sorry trying to compare those two to Jaws is like comparing a thunder hammer to a vindicator...

How does it require more rolls that Heroic sacrifice?

Sacrifice has to start with your character dying:

Both take psychic test and resolve DtW. HS requires a roll to hit JotWW requires an initiative test. So it is the same but one doesn't require you to have died IN COMBAT whilst in base contact with the thing you need dead...

You have precision hits in CC as well ...

The mace doesn't snipe, it "explodes"

HS does about the same IIRC.

Both essentially remove them as casualties the same as JoTWW, perhaps there is some comparison.