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2013/06/21 07:24:05
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 3 of Many: Telepathy)
I started a series of posts on my blog where I am going over all of the powers available to a Jetbike Seer Council and what new options it has availble to help it best perform. I think it is still a viable unit against many forces, but going into this we'll have to acknowledge a few things.
First, Mind-strike Missiles negate the whole unit. There might be ways to build lists or play a way that defends against this to some degree, but in all seriousness one GK Storm Raven can easily decimate all of the Warlocks in the Council. Very disappointed that Warlocks don't have Ghost Helms. Anyway, we'll have to ignore this if we want to use this unit and that means this isn't a tactica for tournaments.
Second, random powers means we need a large unit if we want to get enough of the stuff we want to kick butt. That was mostly true anyway with the last edition in my opinion, though mini Councils could function in some capacity. Also, the random nature of the Runes of Fate means we probably want two Farseers. This restricts our HQ options as it means we cannot use an Autarch to win combats that might tarpit Warlocks. We will have to use the Farseers' access to Remnants of Glory and the Warlocks' debuff powers to prevent tarpits instead.
Third, Warlocks have poor Ld for psykers. Because of this, Dark Eldar allies may be necessary as they can provide Grisly Trophies on their Raiders. With those nearby we can reroll psychic tests. That serves double to protect the Warlocks from Perils on a double 6. Double 1s are just unfortunate and we can't do anything about them.
I'll have to do this in sections because there are a lot of powers to talk about and there is a lot of situational use to discuss. Unit combos for list-building should probably come along at the end too, because how you support the Council matters a lot since it can only be in one place at a time.
Warlocks With a Jetbike Council there are really only two decisions to make with each Warlock. Do you want to buy a Singing Spear, and do you want to trade your roll for Conceal? The spear is more expensive than it used to be, but it counts as a 1-handed close combat weapon so you don't lose an attack for taking it. I try to take a couple, but the points really add up so I don't go overboard at all on it. Also, I don't have that many guys modeled with spears.
When it comes time to roll up psychic powers, always roll your Warlocks first. There is only one chart and they only get one roll, so before you roll there are no choices to make. From there each time you get something a little less obviously useful, decide whether or not to swap for Conceal. I'd make sure to swap about twice in most games. Then depending on the size of the unit and how much AP2/3 shooting the opponent has I'd adjust down from there. Rolling your Runes of Battle powers first enables you to make better informed decisions on how to use your Farseers' rolls. Got a lot of Horrify? Maybe you want Telepathy powers. Got a few Protect/Jinx? Trying extra hard for Fortune and Misfortune might be worth it. Anyway, as there is nothing to mess up and no way to roll yourself into a corner with the Warlocks, they should always come first.
Runes of Battle
Spoiler:
The Warlocks' psychic powers are where the new incarnation of the Seer Council starts to get really interesting. Let's have a look at the powers one by one.
Primaris: Conceal/Reveal
The unit needs at least one of these and it might be beneficial to have two. That's all right because you're likely to roll up plenty results you don't need and will need to fall back on this with at least someone. First the obvious benefits: with Shrouded you have a better save against AP3 and AP2 than you do with your invul save. Much better if you turbo-boost. That can be pretty huge in some situations, especially if you fail to roll up Fortune. Having a 2+ cover to help you get into position won't make up for not having rerollable saves, but it will definitely help a lot. Having two Warlocks with Conceal may be necessary in case one of them fails his roll when you really need the power up.
The other half of this power, Reveal, is brutally effective against units that rely on those special rules because the ones that do are likely to be relying on that to protect them from your pseudo-rending shuriken fire. Reveal may also help against vehicles with those rules should you want to smash them with some S9 Singing Spears. In turns where you already got Conceal up, you're free to use Reveal with anyone who has it. Another nice reason to have two.
Destructor/Renewer
Destructor is almost as good as it was before. I like having Soul Blaze on it well enough, but I don't think that makes up for the 6th edition providing Deny the Witch saves against it. Still, it's not at all bad to have a Heavy Flamer template on a unit with the speed to put it in the worst of places. It should provide some decent benefit to the unit when shooting.
Renewer on the other hand is obscene the way I'm thinking of it. A unit of 8-10 Warlocks can count on scoring 1-2 of these from the chart. Let's assume we get two Renewers and we have two Farseers leading the unit. We position the Farseers so that one is in the front and the other is the closest model to him, the one who will take Look out Sir wounds. You roll saves on the first guy until he takes a wound. Then you start rolling Look out Sir and pass wounds off to the next Farseer. You'll have to estimate the damage you might take and how much you can pass along, but the goal here is to only take up to two wound that are S<8. On your turn you are free to then heal the two Farseers up and negate all that hard work the enemy did. I used to soak damage all the time with my Farseers and this just makes that tactic so much nastier. Just be careful not to put yourself in a position to take a lot more wounds than you can reasonably save and LoS. And be careful of weapons that will ID your Farseer. Then you'd be relying on cover/invul and as nice as it is that we have those, we're not trying to spoon feed Slaneesh our Seers' souls.
Embolden/Horrify
I personally love this power set. The first of the two is handy as all get out for a unit that falls back 3d6 when they get unlucky and fail a morale check. Or that can't afford to whiff in combat and get swept. You could also cast it to apply Fearless after you've already fallen back so you can automatically regroup. A very good power that shouldn't be overlooked.
Now Horrify can just be disgusting in all the best ways. Have a look at the first paragraph on maledictions on p68 of the BYB if you need to refresh yourself. That's right, the effects are always cumulative. So one cast brings the target down from Ld10 to Ld7. Another cast would have them at Ld4. Good f%#king luck passing whatever morale checks I can throw at you this turn. Pinning tests can come from a number of places in our codex, Terrify could come down on the enemy from a Hemlock, basic shooting could have the unit flee and an assault could sweep them. Oh, did you say you're Fearless? Not anymore if Terrify hits you from one of the two Farseers or the Hemlock, which is guaranteed to have it. There are a lot of different ways to use this power and I think it has a definite place in our unit. I'd definitely want at least one, but maybe two. But no more than that. Ld4 will reliably fail and it'd be fine to take Conceal/Reveal over a third one of these.
Edit: Another use I forgot to mention is one that CKO brought up on DakkaDakka. If you can use this to make a unit with ATSKNF fall back, they will run from you 2d6 and you can back off 2d6 too. If you don't want to be in combat with them you can get away nicely. On the other hand, something he didn't mention is that you could cast this on a unit, then turbo-boost to block them in so they can't retreat and then shoot them with other units in your army or use a Hemlock to make them run. Then they die instantly. Somewhat situational, but it's not so bad since Horrify is cast in the movement phase and you can move 36" in the shooting phase. Hmmm...
Enhance/Drain
This is a good power to have, but a little less necessary than it was before since Warlocks have base I5 now. Still, hitting most stuff on 3s with WS5 would be nice. Against someone else with WS4 you would need three casts to bump them down to WS2 and yourself up to WS5 so that they hit on 5s. As funny as that would be, I just don't think it's practical. That's committing a lot of chart rolls, risking a lot of psychic tests/perils, hoping they fail a lot of Deny rolls just to weaken a unit you will probably steamroll anyway. And if not, you might be better off backing away and shooting them instead. Still, part of the point of analyzing these powers is to think about how they can be used, because we have little control over what we get. Since we don't need many conceal/reveal Warlocks, we've got to consider how to make due with what we end up with. Basically Enhance/Drain is another good one to stack up if you can, but a single cast of it gives a good boost to your combat prowess too.
Protect/Jinx:
As a whole I think this is by far the best power. There are good combos and uses for the others and they're necessary for the unit to operate at full potential, but I'd keep up to four or five of these if I happened to roll them. On the defensive side, Protect makes Terminators out of Jetbikes. With Fortune, they would be tremendously hard to remove. But we don't have that many rolls on Runes of Fate and sometimes you just can't seem to roll that one result you want. So if you don't have Fortune, this is your new substitute. Is it enough? Maybe, maybe not. That's going to depend on how much dakka and how much AP2 shooting your enemy can leverage on the unit at once. Not all lists can bring enough firepower down on Terminators to end them quickly. Much less if they're able to get anywhere on the board in a single turn with a 2+ cover to negate the AP2 shots. Getting at least one Protect off does do a lot to keep this unit in the game. Between soaking S1-7 shots with Farseers and positioning to prevent the enemy from weighing too much firepower against you, Protect should be a great boon to the Council.
Jinx is one of the powers that got me thinking about this unit again in the first place. It's pretty awesome that you can make MEQs out of Terminators, right? But remember when I mentioned that maledictions are always cumulative? Yeah. Two casts of this and those MEQs get no armor save from basic shuriken weaponry. Okay so it makes the Seer Council a destructive powerhouse in shooting. They already have pseudo-rending guns anyway, how well does it keep them from getting bogged down in assault? Ork Boyz, one cast means no save. Two for large units of IG. Now you're basically swinging the power weapons people always wanted Witchblades to be when fighting hordes. Against TEQs and MEQs, they might be getting saves, but rolling 4+ and 5+ respectively is not going to go well for units that are written to be balanced based on their armor. This is a power that goes against so much that is essential to 40k's game balance. Obviously it will combo well with Runes of Fate, Telepathy and Divination. I'll be returning to this many times in other posts.
Quicken/Restrain
There has to be one near-total dud in the bunch and this is it. Very simply, Jetbikes can't run, so the buff side of this one is worthless. On the other hand, Restrain could be used like crowd-control. You could keep an enemy unit that is 18" away from running. That would make it harder for them to reinforce against your Council or maybe slow them down when they're trying to dash toward an objective. Or behind cover. I could see using one of these. Maybe two, but any more than that and I'd be pretty disappointed not to have rolled better results on the chart.
Empower/Enervate
Empower boosts your strength by one. In most situations this won't help much because the Council's weapons always wound on a 2+. They are however only 3+2d6 against vehicles so it could help boost your damage against vehicles in combat. The Remnants of Glory weapons are not all fleshbane, however, so it could really help a lot with making those low AP hits count.
I think Enervate is amazing. Probably more than most people do. There are two reasons. One: every body matters--a lot. If debuffing the enemy's strength means even one Warlock is spared in combat, it was worth taking. We've only got one unit and they only have one wound each. They need to last and need to do amazing things to help you win, so leverage every chance you have to manipulate the statistics in your favor. The other one is less obvious, but check this out: remove the threat of ID from powerfists, thunderhammers and S8 MCs. With enough casts, Dreads too, but Dreadnaughts should never even get a chance to swing against massed Witchblades. I'm not sure if many people have noticed this at all, but it makes Farseers pretty damn good at challenges, especially where they only need to score one wound before I1 occurs. This gives a lot more control over your Farseers' protection and circumvents powerful wargear that some players rely on.
Whew that's a long post! There is a lot to say about these powers and I think being thorough is the only way to say anything meaningful in 40k. Still, these are first impressions and I think with some experience there is probably more that can be added. This also doesn't account for combos, lists or match-ups.
In summary, I think the things to take away from the Runes of Battle are: 1) how you can boost the Council's defense in the event that you don't roll Fortune up, 2) how you can boost the Council's offense so it doesn't get tarpitted, 3) how you can combo powers that help remove units through morale checks, and 4) how you can leverage your powers to reduce the most effective ways of neutering the Council (ie killing the Farseers and/or focusing fire with dakka).
Farseers Runes of Fate
Spoiler:
Guide
The usefulness of Guide in a Seer Council will depend on a number of factors. For the Council itself, it will matter how many Singing Spears you brought and whether or not you even have any need to throw them. And it could affect any witchfire powers you're going to throw out, but the ShuCats are already twin-linked and it will be wasted on them. Otherwise it will matter what the rest of your list looks like and what shooting units are going to be within 24" of the Council. Obviously this excludes any Wave Serpents already twin-linking through TL Scatter Lasers, but it could be a nice boost for Dark Eldar allies who are keeping close by to assist the Council with Grisly Trophies. If I planned to have someone useful nearby, I wouldn't mind trading for Guide if I get something I don't at all want. Maybe even one on each Farseer if I have a lot of supporting fast firepower and am just not getting the rolls I want.
Executioner
I'm not at all a big fan of witchfire powers. The few that are better than guns still need a Ld test, can still be blocked by Deny the Witch, risk Perils of the Warp, cost valuable Warp Charges, use up an even more valuable roll on the chart AND need to roll to hit. If you could trade the roll for a good gun, I gladly would. That said, Farseers don't come stock with good guns. You could buy the relic long rifle, but it's expensive and unnecessary to the goals of the Council. If I already have Guide and can't swap, Executioner could be of value. At the very least, it is better than a TL Shuriken Catapult. You could use Executioner if you absolutely have to and since I want us to be able to do something with each roll we make I have to look at this power's potential to kill off someone you'd like dead in a squad. And its ability to wound high toughness targets. But you can only cast a single Witchfire power per turn and while I'll go over this in great detail later, I'd much rather have Psychic Shriek.
Doom
This power is better than it's ever been due to its new utility against vehicular targets. The Council already wounds everything on 2s and has Armorbane against vehicles. Doom helps the Council most when firing ShuCats and when swinging witchblades against AV13-14 targets. Still, it could be a huge boost for Dark Eldar allies with poisoned shots and it's great for bolstering the effectiveness of S6 dakka vs vehicles, so I'd be thrilled to get it. If you roll Doom and Fortune, your spell casting is pretty much decided each turn, but what if you wanted to stack your odds of being able to use all three powers each turn? The first thing that comes to mind is to take the Spirit Stone of Anath'lan on a Farseer; it lets you trade your invul save to reduce the warp charge cost of a power. With shrouding, it is likely you won't be rolling your invul anyway and you can play it by ear if you run up against AP2/3 shooting with ignores cover. This would mean that at the list-building stage you already know which Farseer you are rolling more than once on the Runes of Fate with. That reduces flexibility a little, but the pay off would be big if you rolled both Doom and Fortune.
Eldritch Storm
Here's another witchfire power that I'm not likely to want. It is both better and worse than it used to be, but regarless it doesn't compare well against many of the blessings and maledictions available to us. I wish it still rotated tanks. At least with fleshbane it might wound tons of stuff if you get a good shot off against some bunched up targets, but who doesn't spread out when they see you roll up large blasts? It also has haywire rules now and can damage tanks, but so can a S9 Singing Spear. And with haywire, ES is likely to just burn off a single hull point from the target. This is another one you might be able to use, but since it competes with Psychic Shriek and costs 2 warp charges it could just get little to no use when you need to be casting more important powers.
Death Mission
I see a lot of potential in a Farseer casting Death Mission and riding with his Warlock posse. The problem is he needs a better weapon to really take advantage of the buff. When using 2 Farseers, you don't know which Farseer might get this so each one needs a good relic weapon. That bumps their cost up 15-30 each, depending on what you buy. With a Jinxlock I think the Firesabre would be great since the AP3 would be just as good as AP2. The Soulshrive from the Iyanden supplement could be nasty too. And with WS10 and I10 a DMSeer would rip people apart in challenges when using the Shard of Anaris (as a bonus it also gives the user, and by extension the unit, Fearless). Fleshbane, Rending and Instant Death in challenges is no joke with a Death Mission statline. Basically if you manage to get this power on one Farseer and Fortune on the other I think it might be worth using it if you want a beatstick to stand in the stead of an Autarch. You wouldn't be able to cast the other excellent powers with him afterward, but with the right equipment this can make a Farseer an absolute monster.
Fortune
Obviously this is the money maker. It combos incredibly well with Conceal and Protect, providing durability that the old Council could only have dreamed of. It also picked up rerolls on Deny the Witch, a valuable and unexpective improvement. Once you have this you can relax and roll for stuff you feel like using, in my opinion, as this is almost the whole reason I'll be rolling on the Runes of Fate. While Death Mission would be fun and probably good if I have the builds for it, and while Doom could help support the rest of the force, none of the other powers make or break the Council. Despite Fortune's importance, I think there is less to say about it because everyone knows how amazing it is and how much the Council needs it. I'll just say that rolling on the Runes of Fate multiple times to get Fortune is risky as not all the powers are great when compared to some of the things we want to do with Divination and Telepathy. Just be careful with how many times you're willing to roll because you could get yourself stuck in a situation where you don't roll anything you need and have no more rolls to spend on other charts. That goes against the versatility available to us in rolling for many of the best psychic powers in the game.
Mind War
And finally the last result on the chart, a focussed witchfire power. Mind War now works a little differently. You're not guaranteed to kill the guy you want and if you roll poorly you could debuff youself. Not a problem, really, since Farseers are not the only thing we're relying on to do damage. It does work well with Horrify since debuffing the enemy Ld could help you kill them. And at least these days it ignores cover, but so does Psychic Shiek which can kill way more guys and combos just as well. I don't really want this power, but it certainly has some worthwhile use. The warp charge cost is high, so it could potentially fall to the wayside if you need to cast Fortune, but I'd put some thought into whether or not I'd swap for Guide because depending on what powers other characters have roll this might be of value.
In extreme summary: Fortune.
In a regular summary: take care that you don't get too greedy when rolling to get Fortune. The other powers have their uses, but with many of them costing 2 charges you may not be able to cast enough powers and your Farseers won't be operating at their full potential. Even though we can technically put many of the weaker powers to some use, charts like Telepathy and Divination have much better powers overall and rolling on those charts would be much more beneficial than getting stuck with a lot of Runes of Fate powers and no Fortune. User beware.
Telepathy
Spoiler:
Because it has already come up and I see such potential in it, I want to cover the discipline of Telepathy even though I'd wanted to save the best for last. Telepathy has some powers that are nothing short of devastating with the new Seer Council. While some may have thought before that it was the weaker of the two BYB disciplines available to Eldar, I think it should be almost immediately apparent that it is one of the reasons to take a Council at all now.
Primaris: Psychic Shriek
I brought this up a few times in the Runes of Fate post and I also wrote about it before the new codex came out because it is one of those few witchfire powers that is better than almost any gun in the game. It cares not for your toughness, armor or cover. Even high Ld doesn't protect against it because on 3d6 the average roll is a 10.5. Basically, anything short of good invul saves or vehicle status stands little chance of protecting the target. The range is short, but it matches up well with the other ranged weapons available to the Council. Also with the Jetbike's speed, it's really not hard to be using this soon and to good effect.
Like many other Telepathy powers, where Psychic Shriek gets absurdly powerful is in combination with Horrify. Even a single cast drops Ld10 units down to Ld7. Now you're likely to hit pretty hard with the Shriek. Cast it twice and the target is Ld4. If they're not a horde-sized unit you have not-too-unlikely chance to wipe the entire unit with a single cast. A whole unit of any elite infantry dead before you even fire the first shuriken! That's incredible! And it works just as well against Riptides who are trying to protect themselves with ablative drone wounds. The dead drones and Ld penalties from Horrify will almost certainly cause the Riptide to run if you don't kill it. At any rate, this is something I intend to take just about every game. Rolling on Telepathy with your Farseer's last roll is not a bad option at all when you're not getting what you want. You might roll something great, and in any case you can always trade for Psychic Shriek, which is great.
Dominate
This power also works very well with Horrify. The target has to take a Ld test to do anything of any value, so if you can debuff their Ld you can essentially ignore them while you get to killing something else. At only one warp charge, I see this is a fantastic power considering one of the best ways of dealing with a Council is to gang up on it. Powers like this that allow you to crowd-control allow the Council to do its just unimpeded. I do suppose the target could still cast non-shooting psychic powers and maybe turbo-boost if they are Jetbike type units, but I'm not sure on the exact wording. And the psychic test will be unreliably if we've cast Horrify on them.
Mental Fortitude
If you don't already have Fearless through either an attached IC or a Farseer's Shard of Anaris, this might be of some use. You can also cast it on nearby units though and that could be useful if you have supporting units who need this. For just the Council however, I'm strongly considering spending the points for the Shard of Anaris. For not that many points you get a great weapon and Fearless for the whole unit. Very nice. If I had that I would probably swap for Psychic Shriek if my support units don't need Fearless.
Puppet Master
This is a focused witchfire power and a very good one at that. The only problem I have with it is that it forces the Council to target the unit with its shooting and therefore its assault. Unless you detach the Farseer, your options become quite limited. How would I make these decisions in a game? Depends on what I target. This power works best on vehicles because they have more guns and failing to get the "focused" part of the power to work becomes a non-issue. If I have multi-assault options from there, I might hold off on throwing my spears so that I don't prematurely destroy the target. On the other hand if I really do want to destroy just the vehicle, throwing the spears gives me another chance to do that because I might fail my assault range roll. Vehicles can also be free points toward winning assaults for Councils, so it may be worth making sure they are still there when the assault phase comes along.
Against infantry this power loses some of its pizazz because of the chances you will no get to shoot with anyone who has a decent enough gun. On the other hand there are always some units that only have awesome guns. Combat squads that have been split up to have four special/heavy weapons in one half come to mind. So do CSM Chosen and Havocs. And mirror match Eldar with Wraithguard or Fire Dragons. There are infantry squads where this could be useful, but there are just so many more where it won't be. Take a long hard look at the enemy army before deciding whether or not to keep this one. Chances are I would use it, personally.
Terrify
I think this gem has been hidden away in this list just waiting for a power like Horrify to work with it. I know there are some who have been using it to good effect, but Ld penalties make this power one of the deadliest in the entire game, in my opinion. Units with Fearless are written and balanced to rely on it. And players who use those units are probably very used to not worrying about getting swept or running off the board. Savvy Eldar players ought to be able to do amazing things with Terrify.
It forces an immediate morale check, if Horrify is applied first you can significantly boost the chances that the unit runs at the beginning of the movement phase. The real fun begins if they don't run far enough from your units because charging forces them to roll against their leadership again. If they fail, they are removed from the game. It's not a sweeping advance, so it works against ATSKNF, a special rule which I loathe with all my being. If they do pass the test (not likely with enough Ld penalties) you have amazing chances to sweep them if you win combat (and they don't have ATSKNF *shaking fist*). If for some reason you just don't want to be anywhere near the unit you Terrified, that's no problem either. They're going to run and you can scoot back with your Jetbike assault move. Then you're 4d6" away from them; maybe more if they fail their regrouping test on their turn.
For the Council, Terrify is a return to days when they killed with sweeping advances and Fearless status on their enemies meant extra wounds for free. Terrify brings back slaughtering enemies for taking few to no casualties and then barely winning combat. They never used to hit crazy hard because they lacked the volume of attacks and had no way of getting through good armor saves. Now they have Jinx, Remnants of Glory and Terrify so they can still chop their way through enough guys with good armor or not, Fearless or not, and still win combat to sweep them off the board. Horrify, Torment Grenade Launchers and Enhance/Drain may even help us to ensure that the sweeping advance is successful.
Invisibility
Despite the ease with which we can get Shrouding, I think Invisibility remains valuable to a Seer Council. With it they can deny their targets Counter-Attack and force them to swing at WS1. That goes a very, very long way to keeping Warlocks alive through return attacks. Then there is the fact that it provides Stealth in addition to Shrouding, and thus a 2+ cover save from normal movement, not just Turbo-boosting. One more benefit that may not be immediately obvious is that casting this with a Farseer is safer than casting Conceal with a Warlock. Farseers have enough wounds to survive Perils and have Ghost Helms to protect them if they have Warp Charges left over to spend on it. Since this can cut down on the number of tests you need to make it can protect your Warlock investment. And lastly, Farseers have better leadership so casting Invisbility will work more reliably than Conceal.
Hallucination
There are good and bad sides to the last Telepathy power. Of the bunch it is the most random and that is surely the biggest drawback. The 1-2 result does nothing against units immune to pinning, so Terrify becomes necessary against Fearless units. But in that case you might as well direct a different plan of attack at them all together because of the other ways to take advantage of Terrify. The 3-4 result is the best against most units because it prevents them from doing anything more meaningful than moving. That could do a lot to relieve pressure against your forces and allow the Council to work at wrecking enemy units. The 5-6 result causes the enemy to hit themselves once each with their best melee weapon. I got this off once against a big unit of Wyches and it seemed cool until they promptly failed to wound much and then saved most of the wounds they cause. There are units where this could be good but many units with decent armor will whiff against themselves because their S is the same as their T. A unit of Terminators would be pretty funny punching themselves in the face, but even Psychic Shriek has a good chance to do just as many wounds and only needs one warp charge.
Due to the three very strong powers that require the enemy to roll against their leadership, Telepathy is an incredibly powerful discipline to combine with Ld penalties. There are two places to get these, Horrify and Torment Grenade Launchers. The Council is not guaranteed to have Horrify, but with eight or so Warlocks, the chances are quite good. Torment Grenade Launchers come on flimsy vehicles and work at very short range, but they are cheap and if you are already taking Dark Eldar vehicles for Grisly Trophies, they may be of value.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/06/27 01:23:56
My 40k Blog: Rollin' 2d6 Deep Rumors, Links, Analysis, Modeling, Painting, Fiction
2013/06/21 13:23:17
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
rohansoldier wrote: Good article, even if I have never used a jetbike council.
I do think however, that only different maledictions (not the same power cast by different psykers) are cumulative.
So no getting rid of MEQ armour saves, unfortunately.
Tyranid players have been stacking enfeeble since 6th edition dropped. I'm not sure there is an official ruling. If there is please link it or reference it because our local nid player does this, as it is generally accepted here.
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2013/06/22 01:21:44
Subject: Re:Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
We've been playing it that blessings and maledictions stack too. This started with Hammerhand being FAQed to that effect, I believe. The BYB does say from the "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions" (emphasis mine) are always cumulative. However, I can't tell whether they mean from completely different spells or from different applications.
Realizing this must have come up before, I went ahead and searched for it. I found this thread where the same issue I just pointed out comes up. Seems most people are playing it that they do stack. How is this being played in tournament settings?
My 40k Blog: Rollin' 2d6 Deep Rumors, Links, Analysis, Modeling, Painting, Fiction
2013/06/22 12:34:04
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
I agree with most of your evaluations. And yes GK Stromravens are really nasty to Seer Councils. Considering that I'm likely to only remove one or two hull points with an Aegis ( too late to save the council) and I need my Crimson hunter in position before the seer council arrives (so turn two or more likely three before the Seer council is of any use) and also considering that there is no room for an Autarch (using dual Farseers), this is a major concern. The Eldar list is unlikely to have weight of fire ... too many points are already invested in the seer council ... so it is an even bigger issue.
THe other issue is which are the best support elements for the Seer Council. Using the Baron and at least one raider/venom with grisly trophies seems appropriate and using a few squads of bikes coming from reserves for objective grabbing also seems mandatory. Now I've seen back up in warwalkers and beastpacks but I'm not enamoured of that build. I would certainly want at least a crimson hunter and possibly a wave serpent as as well .
I know how a seer council works ... how you fit it into a 1500 - 1850 list peaks my curiosity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/22 14:45:34
2013/06/24 04:00:55
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
I just updated the original post with the Runes of Fate.
felixcat
I agree, making it work at <2000 points is going to be tough. I've put a few lists together so far, but I think I can do better.
One way to defend against Mind Strikes might be to play a list with lots of GJBikers and split up the Council against GK Storm Ravens. Then you're not playing a real deathstar, but at least it won't get wiped out in one turn.
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2013/06/24 05:07:44
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
dnanoodle wrote: We've been playing it that blessings and maledictions stack too. This started with Hammerhand being FAQed to that effect, I believe. The BYB does say from the "bonuses and penalties from different maledictions" (emphasis mine) are always cumulative. However, I can't tell whether they mean from completely different spells or from different applications.
Realizing this must have come up before, I went ahead and searched for it. I found this thread where the same issue I just pointed out comes up. Seems most people are playing it that they do stack. How is this being played in tournament settings?
I believe most tournaments play it as stacking, including the Bay Area Open and the Golden Throne. Most tyranid players that I know, including myself, play Enfeeble as stacking and I've never seen it challenged.
dnanoodle wrote: I just updated the original post with the Runes of Fate.
felixcat
I agree, making it work at <2000 points is going to be tough. I've put a few lists together so far, but I think I can do better.
One way to defend against Mind Strikes might be to play a list with lots of GJBikers and split up the Council against GK Storm Ravens. Then you're not playing a real deathstar, but at least it won't get wiped out in one turn.
Not a good idea IMO. Better to spread out your warlocks at full coherency and wait for the the ravens to blow their load. Put the more important ones at the ends so that your opponent would be less likely to target them (would get less hits).
But really, all you have to do is to get into assault. Ravens won't come in until T2 at its earliest and you can get into assault by then. Then they can't even shoot at the council.
jy2
Hm that's a good point. With their speed there is no reason you shouldn't be in assault by turn 2 if you want to be. That'd give you the time you need to bring down the Raven or get into a new assault. Or heck, maybe just to get out of it's turning radius/Hover Mode line of sight.
If you are facing a GK Storm Raven, there are good chances you're facing an elite army, perhaps with as few models as you have. Those are good situations for the Council. Avoiding getting nuked by the Storm Raven even for a few turns could spell disaster for the opponent.
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2013/06/24 06:23:07
Subject: Re:Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
Whew pretty brutal game, jy2. I had a feeling it might go something like that when I saw what powers he rolled.
A couple things I saw in the game and comments though:
-The Council dines on walkers and any other vehicle, especially with +S powers. I was really surprised that you charged him with those Fiends and that people in the comments expected them to crush Council members.
-Terrify is so unbelievably good. I've been talking with my friend as I write my way through these posts and we're really pumped about using Terrify and other Ld-based powers with Horrify. I think there is a lot to say about how those can be used.
-Damn I'm pretty much sold on taking the Baron. Hit&Run keeping you out of drawn-out combats is incredible. Not to mention that he's a respectably good character *and* helps you go first to get powers up ASAP. All at a bargain price too.
Oh something else I forgot to say earlier. One more reason I take back splitting up the Council against Mind Strike missiles is that Warlocks simply flail uselessly in combat when they don't have enough attacks. As a deathstar, they really only work in a big group. If they're not breaking the enemy army's back then the Eldar player is probably having a rough game.
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2013/06/24 14:57:24
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
I have to ay that I'm not sold on the dual deathstar. I like the Baron a lot. But I would rather have some Wave Serpent DA then a beastpack without the Baron that is not even fearless (as the Baron is in the council). I have also tested out an 1850 list and even a 1500 list. And yes, getting into cc is vitally important against certain opponents and thankfully is no problem with a council's speed - just need to pick the right units, lol.
My experience is that we need protect above all else - it has to go off and hopefully stack. After that fortune is really nice, maybe not essential. I played a seven man council so my odds were over 70% to get both protect and fortune. Not bad. But I could see that without these powers you could be in for some problems. There is no other power that is better than Fortune, IMHO, but first and foremost we need protect.
Where it starts to get interesting is whether or not you want to roll telepathy or divination ( usually on the second seer after you have snagged fortune ). There are interesting combinations for the council with both. What is nice is that without tailoring we can choose when we see what we are up against.
Also don't know if you mentioned this but - always roll your warlock powers first ... this helps deciding the route you want to take with your Seers.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/24 16:30:09
2013/06/24 16:25:50
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
dnanoodle wrote: Whew pretty brutal game, jy2. I had a feeling it might go something like that when I saw what powers he rolled.
A couple things I saw in the game and comments though:
-The Council dines on walkers and any other vehicle, especially with +S powers. I was really surprised that you charged him with those Fiends and that people in the comments expected them to crush Council members.
-Terrify is so unbelievably good. I've been talking with my friend as I write my way through these posts and we're really pumped about using Terrify and other Ld-based powers with Horrify. I think there is a lot to say about how those can be used.
-Damn I'm pretty much sold on taking the Baron. Hit&Run keeping you out of drawn-out combats is incredible. Not to mention that he's a respectably good character *and* helps you go first to get powers up ASAP. All at a bargain price too.
Oh something else I forgot to say earlier. One more reason I take back splitting up the Council against Mind Strike missiles is that Warlocks simply flail uselessly in combat when they don't have enough attacks. As a deathstar, they really only work in a big group. If they're not breaking the enemy army's back then the Eldar player is probably having a rough game.
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I meant to charge him with both maulerfiends and my spawns. That would definitely have hurt him. Unfortunately, 2 of the 3 failed their charges.
I'm starting to loathe Terrify. On the other hand, Fateweaver getting Terrify is awesome! In my next 2 rematches against the council, I took Fatey and he got Terrify both times!
Horrify is not quite as good because it doesn't remove Fearlessness, however, it can throw off enemy psykers.
The Baron is an incredible HQ. I highly recommend him to go with the seer council. One of the weaknesses of the seer council is that they can get stuck in combats that they don't want to be in. The Baron is your solution.
Splitting up the seer council definitely isn't a good idea in most cases, though there are a few exceptions.
I have to ay that I'm not sold on the dual deathstar. I like the Baron a lot. But I would rather have some Wave Serpent DA then a beastpack without the Baron that is not even fearless. I have also tested out an 1850 list and even a 1500 list. And yes, getting into cc is vitally important against certain opponents and thankfully is no problem with a council's speed - just need to pick the right units, lol.
My experience is that we need protect above all else - it has to go off and hopefully stack. After that fortune is really nice, maybe not essential. I played a seven man council so my odds were over 70% to get both protect and fortune. Not bad. But I could see that without these powers you could be in for some problems. There is no other power that is better than Fortune, IMHO.
Where it starts to get interesting is whether or not you want to roll telepathy or divination ( usually on the second seer after you have snagged fortune ). There are interesting combinations for the council with both. What is nice is that without tailoring we can choose when we see what we are up against.
Also don't know if you mentioned this but - always roll your warlock powers first ... this helps deciding the route you want to take with your Seers.
The dual deathstars is just 1 of many builds. Rocking the seer council with serpents is definitely a viable build as well. I like the eldar/dark eldar alliance for a seer council build mainly because of the Baron. IMO he is essential to the success of the council.
Protect is important because the trend nowadays is volume of S6/7 shooting that isn't low-AP (i.e. autocannons, teslas, missile-sides, scatter lasers, heldrakes). You still see plasmas but most of the competitive builds are rocking VoF guns over low-AP weaponry. More is better. Hence why 2+ is so important.
Yeah, my opponent rolled for his Warlock powers first.
As for the Eldar power, I'd probably roll on Rites of Fate first to try to get Doom or Fortune. I'd go for 2 tries before going to Divination for Prescience. If I get favorable powers for the 1st farseer, then I can go with Divination or Telepathy for the 2nd one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/24 16:34:19
That is exactly how I would play it as well. Roll on fates ... if you completely fail ( although you do have a 75% chance) thrn roll div/telepathy. I think I would favor telepathy in most match ups but of course there are always exceptions.
After playing with the new serpents I really like 2+ on most lists and I want one venom with grisly trophies for sure. A smart opponent will take the venom out fast once he realizes that LD8 is a lot less reliable without the grisly trophies but still ... I will start with one.
Then we get to what you want on your serpents as well ... as much as I love scatters I really think TLBLs are necessary for AT on the serpents. As a DE player I know the value of lances. And with BS4 TL lances seem quite good despite the obvious benefits of scatters.
One more item that should not be overlooked ... if you decide to use reserves (crimson hunter) or outflank ( warwalkers) then you want to roll on divination for scrier's gaze - maybe the most overlooked psychic power in the list of 'must haves'. Also Doom/Misfortune is near as good as rolling Fortune ... if nothing survives I won't need to reroll saves, lol.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/24 19:53:43
2013/06/25 02:32:40
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 1 of Many: Runes of Battle)
I'll add a short section on Warlocks and mention rolling their powers first. I consider it like target priority. If you only have one option with a unit, roll them first and see what happens. Then play the rest of the units flexibly from there.
There are a couple things I love about Protect. The 2+ is amazing, but even if you get hit with plasma or something AP2, you're likely to have a 2/3+ cover as well. And in combat AP2 weapons are still pretty rare unless players can get some that go at initiative. If you don't score Fortune, Protect, Conceal and Invis are the next best things we can get.
Agreed on Horrify when it's used by itself, but it works so very well with powers that test against enemy Ld. There are 3 in Telepathy and Mind War in Runes of Fate.
List-wise I'm personally leaning toward A Deldar mech list. Something like 2 Farseers, 7-8 Warlocks, 2 DA Scatter Serpents with Holos, 2 Raiders with 5 Warriors each loaded with Grisly Trophies and Torment Grenade Launchers, a Venom with Blasterborn. From there I'd look into Scatt/BL Walkers and a Hemlock if I can it it. A Hemlock guaranteeing Terrify would be boss.
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2013/06/25 03:28:49
Subject: Reexamining the JetCouncil in the 6th Ed. Eldar Codex (Part 2 of Many: Runes of Fate)