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It seems that way to me. The heavy weapons shoot a low amount of shots that you can barely move and shoot with, in the case of the templates not at all. The special weapons that target infantry are awful, and the anti-vehicle ones are practically just as awful because they won't ever be wasting their shots on vehicles unless they had to.

I pretty new to this game, but c'mon, Imperial Guard have way better stuff to spend their points on, right?


(AFTER-THOUGHT: I guess Flamers and Grenade Launchers seem alright, are they?)

AFTER-THOUGHT: Wow I was really stupid when I made this post...

Nope. I'm a huge fan of Autocannons this edition in my blobs. Cheap, effective, and with orders/prescience can drop most flyers/monsters.

As for specials, well I take flamers for the overwatch potential. Again cheap. I think melta is better on other things (stormtroopers or SW allies) and the same goes for plasma. I may occasionally throw a sniper rifle in there just cuz I had 5 points and didn't have a spare flamer model.

The only thing I put in my infantry blobs is Guardsmen with flamers/meltas/plasmas, grenade launchers just do a worse job than meltas and plasmas, when you could just spend that extra 5pts for a much better weapon. I usually use flamers or plasmas, depending on what I'm going up against, and I usually keep my Heavy Weapons out of my blobs and whack them in Command Squads, because they have a better BS and I can give them carapace armour, so they're less likely to die.. However, this may be because I field an Armoured Company consisting of loadsa' Russes, Vendettas, Chimeras and a single blob of minimal infantry to take objectives..

Nope. I'm a huge fan of Autocannons this edition in my blobs. Cheap, effective, and with orders/prescience can drop most flyers/monsters.

Wouldn't you rather a Heavy Bolter than an Autocannon? I mean I don't think I'm a fan of either, but then at least you would have more chances at snap shots.

I just can't see my infantry squad shooting at something heavier than infantry. Wouldn't I just save my points for some Vendettas to do that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
The only thing I put in my infantry blobs is Guardsmen with flamers/meltas/plasmas, grenade launchers just do a worse job than meltas and plasmas, when you could just spend that extra 5pts for a much better weapon. I usually use flamers or plasmas, depending on what I'm going up against, and I usually keep my Heavy Weapons out of my blobs and whack them in Command Squads, because they have a better BS and I can give them carapace armour, so they're less likely to die.. However, this may be because I field an Armoured Company consisting of loadsa' Russes, Vendettas, Chimeras and a single blob of minimal infantry to take objectives..

I can't see why people like plasma guns. It's only a couple shots, and 3x the cost of a grenade launcher.

Well, to answer your first question:

str7 > str 5
And most flyers out there are 11-12 AV. For flying monsters, really all you gotta do is hit. A lasgun that hits has a chance of grounding a Bloodthirster. Don't even try to conceptualize how that would look

Sometimes, I shoot at vehicles with my blob. It may be that my opponent deployed out of effective lasgun range. Sometimes I'll even shoot at the Quadgun to knock a wound or two off to help my Vendetta survive entry. Anyway, it's 10pts of decent vs everything. I used to do Las/Plas but since I have been using my SM Allies, my blob just covers down on the rear battle area so I figured I should invest minimally on upgrades while still being useful.



Oh, and Vendettas aren't there turn one. Sometimes, as in real life, you can't wait for close air support.

special weapons are the bread and butter of the guard.... most notably plasma and melta, flamers are good for counter charge on foot lists, and GL are garbage. Autocannons seem to be the preferred heavy weapon with Lascannon coming in second. Heavy weapons are more for gunline guard though.

Special and Heavy weapons are the greatest thing about Guard (next to our fliers, that is). Plasma and melta are awesome for the price you pay, and when it comes to HW's Lascannons seemed to be really well loved recently but Autocannons are the other viable option.

Grenade Launchers are the worst thing you can get, even sniper rifles have some sort of use (meh MC hunting).

What you are not factoring in are the orders (bring it down) coming from your CCS. So with a lascannon in an infantry squad you get some decent fire power, a speed bump to stop assault, bubble wrap to keep those DSing melta away, and some of your mandatory troop choices. These also unlock PCS 4x flamers to put into your vendetta. So you have the choice of taking a useless IS or making it useful for 15-10 pts.

You've got this entirely backwards. Heavy and special weapons are the reason you take infantry units, the models with a lasgun are just there to be extra wound counters so the heavy and special weapons don't die right away.

 LordHamshire wrote:
It seems that way to me. The heavy weapons shoot a low amount of shots that you can barely move and shoot with, in the case of the templates not at all.

So don't move. Platoon squads are usually static meatshields, so lacking the ability to move isn't a problem.

The special weapons that target infantry are awful, and the anti-vehicle ones are practically just as awful because they won't ever be wasting their shots on vehicles unless they had to.

Completely wrong. Even if you don't want to "waste" the lasguns it's hard to have too much anti-tank, and a spare melta gun on an infantry squad can be the difference between success and failure. Meanwhile melta and plasma are both great against infantry targets as well.

(AFTER-THOUGHT: I guess Flamers and Grenade Launchers seem alright, are they?)

Nope. Flamers are very situational and only really go on a PCS in a Vendetta (since you can use the transport to deliver it into flamer position), while grenade launchers are terrible and should never go in any list where the goal is anything other than "go easy on a 10 year old". The vast majority of your special weapons will be melta or plasma.

HWTs are pretty bad. Too much Str.6+ in the game right now. SWSs are decent if you stick em in Vendettas.

I'd keep your blobs pretty plain and gear them towards anti-infantry to make use of Lasguns. Despite what Peregrine says, 50+ Lasguns can do some damage to other infantry units, including MCs.

Spending 50 points for a bag of lasguns is a waste of 50 points. Spending 70 points for a bag of lasguns and a reasonably durable lascannon is a much better value. Also, special weapons are defensive weapons. If your complaining that they don't get to shoot often, you're kind of missing the point.

Specials and heavies are very good things to take, as weapon upgrades are an efficient way of increasing you killing power. Taking squads without real guns is like hiring people to dig a ditch for you and then not giving them shovels.

 LordHamshire wrote:

Nope. I'm a huge fan of Autocannons this edition in my blobs. Cheap, effective, and with orders/prescience can drop most flyers/monsters.

Wouldn't you rather a Heavy Bolter than an Autocannon? I mean I don't think I'm a fan of either, but then at least you would have more chances at snap shots.

I just can't see my infantry squad shooting at something heavier than infantry. Wouldn't I just save my points for some Vendettas to do that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
The only thing I put in my infantry blobs is Guardsmen with flamers/meltas/plasmas, grenade launchers just do a worse job than meltas and plasmas, when you could just spend that extra 5pts for a much better weapon. I usually use flamers or plasmas, depending on what I'm going up against, and I usually keep my Heavy Weapons out of my blobs and whack them in Command Squads, because they have a better BS and I can give them carapace armour, so they're less likely to die.. However, this may be because I field an Armoured Company consisting of loadsa' Russes, Vendettas, Chimeras and a single blob of minimal infantry to take objectives..

I can't see why people like plasma guns. It's only a couple shots, and 3x the cost of a grenade launcher.

But you get that AP2, which is so vital for dealing with Terminators.. And, DON'T DISS THE PLASMA, one of my Veterans immobilised a Maulerfiend with his plasmagun, it was so funny :')

 Ailaros wrote:
Spending 50 points for a bag of lasguns is a waste of 50 points. Spending 70 points for a bag of lasguns and a reasonably durable lascannon is a much better value. Also, special weapons are defensive weapons. If your complaining that they don't get to shoot often, you're kind of missing the point.

Specials and heavies are very good things to take, as weapon upgrades are an efficient way of increasing you killing power. Taking squads without real guns is like hiring people to dig a ditch for you and then not giving them shovels.

I dont think 1 Lascannon at BS3 is worth 20 points. YMMV.

It so hard to see what you guys are saying, lol

Ok, so is it a general consenses that grenade launchers are pretty good for 5 pts?

 LordHamshire wrote:
Ok, so is it a general consenses that grenade launchers are pretty good for 5 pts?

No, the general consensus is that grenade launchers are a complete waste of a special weapon slot and you should never take them. Special weapons are always melta or plasma, with the occasional flamer PCS.

 LordHamshire wrote:
It so hard to see what you guys are saying, lol

Ok, so is it a general consenses that grenade launchers are pretty good for 5 pts?

Opinions varies depending on your local gaming scene. Works for me, might not work for you, definitively doesn't work for some here.

So could someone explain what I'd be doing with like a plasma gun? Is it effective against heavy infantry, or would I be shooting a vehicles?

 LordHamshire wrote:
So could someone explain what I'd be doing with like a plasma gun? Is it effective against heavy infantry, or would I be shooting a vehicles?

It shoots at everything. It's better than a lasgun against light infantry, very effective against heavy infantry, and can even do reasonably well against lighter vehicles.

So I have like 1000 Tallarn plasma gunner models from these Tallarn collectors kits, please tell me they are better than meltaguns, lol.

The thing that worries me about them is no so much their effectiveness as their price, but I guess I'll take all your words for it, for now.

 LordHamshire wrote:
So I have like 1000 Tallarn plasma gunner models from these Tallarn collectors kits, please tell me they are better than meltaguns, lol.

They have different roles. Plasma is a heavy infantry killer that can shoot at vehicles if you need to. Melta is a vehicle killer that can shoot at heavy infantry if you need to. Most lists will have a mix of the two.

The thing that worries me about them is no so much their effectiveness as their price, but I guess I'll take all your words for it, for now.

Just remember carrier costs. A platoon squad with a grenade launcher is 55 points, a platoon squad with a plasma gun is 70 points. The plasma squad's total cost isn't that much more percentage-wise, but you get a huge increase in effectiveness. And of course with vets it's even more of an obvious choice, since your carrier cost now includes a 55 point Chimera or 130 point Vendetta and you need to maximize the effectiveness of the unit inside each of those expensive transports.

1 lasgun will put 0.027 wounds on a terminator and 0.054 wounds on a space marine, on average (24")
1 plasma gun will put 0.28 wounds on a terminator and 0.42 wounds on a space marine, on average (24")

Against terminators 1 plasma gun=10 lasguns and against space marines 1 plasma gun =7.78 lasguns

 greyknight12 wrote:
1 lasgun will put 0.027 wounds on a terminator and 0.054 wounds on a space marine, on average (24")
1 plasma gun will put 0.28 wounds on a terminator and 0.42 wounds on a space marine, on average (24")

Against terminators 1 plasma gun=10 lasguns and against space marines 1 plasma gun =7.78 lasguns

Well your not counting benefit lost from 'First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire'

If you had that on them it would be more like 3.89 against Space Marines.

Making a plasma gun that quadruples the price of a guardsmen, not quite quadruple the effectiveness of a lasgun. (Against Space Marines)

You're still ignoring the carrier cost of the other 9 jerks with lasguns, who don't do anything other than take up space on the table.

50 points for 9 lasguns (since the sergeant's pistol is useless at 24", versus 65 points for 8 lasguns and a plasmagun. How does that comparison work out?

It's 0.486 for 9 lasguns, versus 0.852 for 8 lasguns and a plasmagun. 30% increase in the squad's cost to almost double their killing power against MEQ targets.

Toss in FRF and that goes to 0.972 for 9 lasguns or 1.284 for 8 lasguns and a plasmagun against an MEQ target.

Or compare it to the 0 glancing hits and 0 penetrating hits that your 9 lasguns will do versus an AV10 vehicle with the number greater than 0 that 10 guys with a plasma gun will do.

The strength of the Imperial Guard is the ability to mass plasmagun and meltagun fire against targets by burying the weapons in giant blobs of dirt cheap infantry.

Personally, I can't take heavy weapons in infantry squads and I don't miss them. ^^; I do like to take heavy weapon squads with missile launchers, though... and special weapon squads with plasmaguns are just evil.

I did put something insane together the other day. Using the Elysian list. You would never, ever field it because the chances of being to deepstrike a 55 model squad without mishapping are basically nil, but between sergeants with twin pistols, commissars with twin pistols, and five plasmagunners you can throw 30 plasmagun shots at any target on the board... as long as it's standing next to an open field with a jeep in it, lol.

Oh, and the plasma-blob is something in the realm of 600 points.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:You're still ignoring the carrier cost of the other 9 jerks with lasguns, who don't do anything other than take up space on the table.

They do a lot more than that - they help keep the good weapons on the table by soaking wounds.

Really, you've got to think of it as spending 70 points for a T3 W10 monstrous creature with a lascannon.

I'm back to the question of why would a infantry squad waste shots on a vehicle? We have Vendettas.

You frequently have more vehicles to shoot at than Vendettas. While they're hunting Heldrakes and Night Scythes and Dakkajets, your infantry can be blasting away at Venoms and Warwalkers and Chimeras and Maulerfiends and Wave Serpents.

 LordHamshire wrote:
I'm back to the question of why would a infantry squad waste shots on a vehicle? We have Vendettas.

Because Vendettas are an extremely cost-effective unit, not a magic "make all tanks go away" button. If you assume that you don't need other anti-tank because you have Vendettas you're inevitably going to have games where your Vendettas don't get the job done and all you can do is watch helplessly as the tanks kill you. Melta and plasma are cheap upgrades that give you a much better chance of avoiding this problem while simultaneously making your infantry squads better against everything else.

 A Musketeer wrote:
Well, to answer your first question:

A lasgun that hits has a chance of grounding a Bloodthirster. Don't even try to conceptualize how that would look

Easy all of the flashing lights cause it to have a epilepsy.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LordHamshire wrote:
I'm back to the question of why would a infantry squad waste shots on a vehicle? We have Vendettas.

Because Vendettas are an extremely cost-effective unit, not a magic "make all tanks go away" button. If you assume that you don't need other anti-tank because you have Vendettas you're inevitably going to have games where your Vendettas don't get the job done and all you can do is watch helplessly as the tanks kill you. Melta and plasma are cheap upgrades that give you a much better chance of avoiding this problem while simultaneously making your infantry squads better against everything else.

Couldn't I use the points I would've spent on such upgrades to get MORE Vendettas?